Does Purgatory exist or not?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

After re-reading my previous post it comes off a bit snippy and that was not my intention!! So no attitude was intended in that post

[Willa]

Heb. 9:27 And it is appointed for men to die once, and after this the judgement.

2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Phil. 1:25 for I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Matt.. 28:20b and lo I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

There is no indication that we will ever be apart from the Lord when we die, which is the case of those in purgatory as well as those believe their souls sleep in the grave apart from Christ. There is no purgatory in the Bible. We, our spirits/souls either go to be with Christ for eternity or we go to sheol, the grave, the place of the dead and are apart from Him for eternity. Christ arose and is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven. We who continue to trust and rely on Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit and shall always be with Him. 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:12.

[Willa]

I'm not going to debate the existence of Purgatory. But if someone is going to make a factual statement regarding the teachings of another faith I think that they should have their facts correct. And I would say going to the Catholic Church to see what the say on the topic is the correct course of action. Just regurgitating what others accuse them of believing does no one justice.

The reason why I bring this up is because while listening to an apologetics podcast they claimed that the Catholics added 13 books to the bible during the reformation when in fact Luther removed 7 books. Now when I listen to them I think " are they wrong about this too than"

I realize I'm the new guy on the block, but let's be honest in our discussions.

Luther and the reformers went back to the Septuigent, the Greek translation of the Hebrew text of the Old Testament; the books written after the time of Daniel, around 200 BC and were considered to be the Old Testament cannon at that time.. Some were inconsistant with the revealed nature of God or were myths like Bell and the Dragon. Others were good for historical background but were not considered Scriptire. The reformers just went by what the Jews had considered cannon in 200 BC. The Septuagint was quoted by St Paul and by the church fathers long before Jerome. That is why we considered the other books and portions of books to be added to the Old Testament. Most of us aren't nearly as ignorant as you might think.

[Trinitron]

The Septuagint/LXX's books are not identical to the Catholic Bible's OT/Deuterocanonical(apocryphal)  sections.  It is important to know that Christians from the beginning up to the time of Jerome used the LXX bible.  The NT's quotes of the OT and the apocryphal references come from the LXX.  The NT was also written in Greek like the LXX.  Jerome's Latin Vulgate was initially rejected.  It only slowly gained acceptance because it became the government enforced/endorsed version to use, similar to how the KJV attained it's primacy.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Trinitron

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

Willamina,

I did not mean to paint everyone with the same brush and nor did I intend to be insulting. I have a rather direct personality and sometimes it comes across and being rude when put in printed form. That's why I posted up my second comment right away.

As for my thinking folks here are ignorant, yes but not in the pejorative sense. But in the proper use of the word, being "not knowing".

I was raised in a mixed faith home. My mother is Lutheran and my father Catholic. So I know a lot of what people claim about what Catholics believe is wrong. It's information passed down through generations. I know this board is clear against teaching Catholic doctrine (although I'm not sure how people can make claims about what Catholics believe.... That seems to fall under that rule. But so be it). But if someone is clearly misinformed, and claiming something that is untrue, than I think as a community someone should be pointing out that something is being said in error.

I respect the boards rules regarding Catholic doctrine, but every post in this thread is 100% wrong in regards to what they teach about purgatory so if I can't correct them by sharing the proper teaching all I can do is say the poster is incorrect and should inform themselves.

[ncn]

Just so that there is no misunderstanding. 

 

This site does not allow RCC teaching, nor does it allow RCC bashing.  

Please remember that we do not promote the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, nor do we "bash" the church with blanket statements and hateful statements.

Denominations do not become saved, individuals do.

 

Discussion is fine, as long as it is done without bashing a group of people as if they are all in agreement and believe exactly the same. 

We welcome everyone who follows our Terms of Service, but we do quickly shut down any thread that is teaching Catholicism before it becomes a battlefield.  

 

We believe that there are people in every denomination that are saved, just as we believe there are people in every denomination that are not saved. 

Salvation does not come through one denomination, but through Christ Jesus. 

 

We do welcome any discussion/debate on what is in scripture, while ensuring that extra-biblical beliefs are stated as such.

What we don't allow members to teach are the beliefs held and taught by the RCC that are outside of scripture, their doctrine.

 

God Bless. 

 

Nigel. 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Everyone.....

    I would just like to say that we have already determined that the Scriptures do not support the notion of a "purgatory",,,,so does it really matter what any denomination or person thinks one believes what it is supposed to be about?Does it build anyone up,encourage anyone ,extol them?No ,it only adds to their confusion about something that is not found in Gods Word

     I already posted (according to wikipedia)a little bit about how where the idea of "purgatory " came from to help answer the OPs querry......as ncn has said,,,,,,,we are not here to promote any teaching other than what is the God breathed inspired Word.......I spent many ,many ,many years under the RCC,Dorothean cloysters .......does it help anyone to know what they taught regarding purgatory?Not in my opinion,,,,,,,I think what is important is what God tells us in His Word ,,,,,,,there is heaven & there is hell,though ijt may be less scarey for some sitting on the fence,there is no in between              And the ONLY WAY to that beautiful place called Heaven & in the Presence of God is by the Grace of God through & by ougr  Faith in Jesus Christ

      God Bless us all & Glory be to God!                                                                    With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

Kwik

My point was not to defend the idea of Purgatory. I did not once say anything in defense of it. My point is we should be people of integrity.

Someone asks me about something and I give a wrong representation of the opposing view I loose all integrity.

I thought the example I gave of the podcast was clear. They made a claim that was so far from the truth that now I question everything they say. True or not I now have become very sceptical of all that they say.

So if someone comes to this forum seeking The Lord and has done reading and sees what people are saying about another faith and and what that faith believes, and they know what is being said against that faith is not true . Than why are they going to believe you when you are speaking truth.

When I see people say things like you did "so does it really matter what any denomination or person thinks one believes what it is supposed to be about?"

Yes it does matter because if you are going to claim they are wrong and you don't even know what they teach on the subject how can you say they are wrong.

The Catholic Church does NOT teach that purgatory is a place that you go to because you're not good enough for heaven and not bad enough for hell. That is so ridiculous that I had to comment. So now when that poster makes comments on other subjects I will simply assume like purgatory the poster does know what they are taking about on that subject either.

So when Jehovah witnesses and Mormans are discussed and someone makes a claim regarding what they believe I will just assume those statements are wrong as well.

[Guest]

....if someone is going to make a factual statement regarding the teachings of another faith....

....I realize I'm the new guy on the block, but let's be honest in our discussions....

 

 

Honestly, New Guy Or No, You Are Precious In His Sight

 

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

 

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

 

And Dear One, As For All Those Marvelous Men

 

For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

 

Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

 

Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

 

Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 1 Corinthians 1:11-15

 

With All Their Unique And Special Clubs

 

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

 

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3

 

Old Saint Peter Got It Right

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

 

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:3-5

 

So,

 

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matthew 15:9

 

What's Your Faith

 

With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

 

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

 

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Ephesians 4:2-7

 

And Beloved, Who's Your Papa

 

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

 

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:8-10

 

~

 

Dear Judas,

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

Please Do Not Be Offended By The Truth

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

 

But Do Stay

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5:8-11

 

And Enjoy Worthy

 

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Proverbs 27:17

 

Where Jesus Is The KING

 

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

 

And You Are The Loved

 

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[OneLight]

Kwik

My point was not to defend the idea of Purgatory. I did not once say anything in defense of it. My point is we should be people of integrity.

Someone asks me about something and I give a wrong representation of the opposing view I loose all integrity.

I thought the example I gave of the podcast was clear. They made a claim that was so far from the truth that now I question everything they say. True or not I now have become very sceptical of all that they say.

So if someone comes to this forum seeking The Lord and has done reading and sees what people are saying about another faith and and what that faith believes, and they know what is being said against that faith is not true . Than why are they going to believe you when you are speaking truth.

When I see people say things like you did "so does it really matter what any denomination or person thinks one believes what it is supposed to be about?"

Yes it does matter because if you are going to claim they are wrong and you don't even know what they teach on the subject how can you say they are wrong.

The Catholic Church does NOT teach that purgatory is a place that you go to because you're not good enough for heaven and not bad enough for hell. That is so ridiculous that I had to comment. So now when that poster makes comments on other subjects I will simply assume like purgatory the poster does know what they are taking about on that subject either.

So when Jehovah witnesses and Mormans are discussed and someone makes a claim regarding what they believe I will just assume those statements are wrong as well.

In the end, assuming you are going on your statement, you will believe absolutely nobody, even yourself, for we all are still learning.

Let the Holy Spirit guide and teach you what the real truth is and don't ever take what someone says as gospel truth ... set it beside scripture like the Barean did as see if it is true or not.

As for RCC teaching, I belonged to the RCC when I was young and remember them teaching purgatory in class. Since I don't know what you were taught, or by whom, I am not going to question what you believe. All I know is what I was taught.

 

As an administrator of this site, and for reason of bringing in the truth to this thread, I will offer this one time correction about what the RCC does teach - do not continue to debate this.

This is from this RCC site:

 

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

Shalom