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Guest Judas Machabeus

One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5)

Water Baptism doesn't save. It is a picture of our death, burial, and resurrection. It is telling the world and the local church that "Hey! I follow Jesus!"

When the Holy Spirit enters a person that is when that person is saved. Otherwise, if a person wasn't baptized would they not go to paradise right?

God bless,

GE

Golden

I agree with you when you say that a person is saved when they receive the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was baptized he was baptized with water and when he rose the Holy Spirit descended. So using Jesus as a model I would have to say baptism saves.

Mark 1:10

10And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove;

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Golden

I agree with you when you say that a person is saved when they receive the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was baptized he was baptized with water and when he rose the Holy Spirit descended. So using Jesus as a model I would have to say baptism saves.

Mark 1:10

10And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove;

 

 

 

 

Acts 10:44-48

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

NASB

 

Some received the Holy Spirit before water baptism, so it seems to me that it wasn't the baptism that brought on the Holy Spirit...

 

but still they were expecting water baptism.

 

I think this question of Baptism is really hard to answer.....      Romans tells us that if we believe the Father raised him from the dead and we confess with our mouths that Jesus is our Lord we will definitely be saved.......   while it doesn't mention water baptism,  the fact that we declare that Jesus is our Lord pretty much demands baptism for he told us to be baptized and if he is our lord, we must follow his demand.

 

At what point is one saved......   when he declares Lordship, or as he shows it in his/her actions.   It seems of such importance that I would question anyone's salvation if they were not baptized....     not that the baptism saved them, but they lied when they confessed Lordship if they had a chance for baptism and did not do so.

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One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5)

Water Baptism doesn't save. It is a picture of our death, burial, and resurrection. It is telling the world and the local church that "Hey! I follow Jesus!"

When the Holy Spirit enters a person that is when that person is saved. Otherwise, if a person wasn't baptized would they not go to paradise right?

God bless,

GE

 

Golden

I agree with you when you say that a person is saved when they receive the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was baptized he was baptized with water and when he rose the Holy Spirit descended. So using Jesus as a model I would have to say baptism saves.

Mark 1:10

10And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove;

 

 

It's good we can agree Judas on some things. ;)

It makes no sense though to say that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus and that's why baptism saves. Jesus was not in need of salvation. Jesus was already 100% man and 100% God. For who's benefit do you think the dove descended on Jesus? Was Jesus not already in-dwelt and in communion with the Holy Spirit?

That is another passage that does not say what you're trying to make it say. Notice all 3 accounts in Matthew, Mark, & Luke pointing to what John describes below.

 

Matt. 3:13-17

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son,  with whom I am well pleased.”

Luke 3:21-22

21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son;  with you I am well pleased.”

Mark 1:9-11

In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son;[d] with you I am well pleased.”

John 1:29-34

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

 What do you think?

God bless,

 

 

GE

Also of note: Plus what you're saying about baptism, Jesus, & the Holy Spirit contradict Acts 10 as pointed out by Other One.

 

 

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Guest Judas Machabeus

Necademus asked Jesus how one is saved and Jesus said that we are born again of water and the Spirit. He showed us exactly what that means at the Jordan. No, he did not need salvation but, we needed to be shown what it means to be baptized. Be shown that the Jewish baptism is incomplete and Jesus has come to fulfill baptism.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. This is why we do not do animal sacrifice. Because it was not adequate. So Jesus came to be the final sacrifice. Because only his sacrifice would be adequate. Same for baptism, water alone was inadequate. You need the Spirit, and that is what Jesus is showing everyone at the Jordan. He is the fulfillment. He didn't need baptism, we do but He did need to show the inadequacy of the Jewish baptism and the fufillment of it ( being the reception of the Holy Spirit)

Jesus showed us what is expected of us. We are bound to that. God is not!!!! God is free to save whoever he wants and however he wants.

You can deny it and accuse me of misinterpration all you want but it's right there. Straight from Christ mouth and actions.

You got to be born of water and spirit- his words

At the Jordon he is baptized with water and receives the Holy Spirit - his actions.

As for Acts I find it interesting that immediately after receiving the Holy Spirit they are baptized. Wonder why?? I'm guessing cause Jesus said you need to be. Again straight from the mouth of Jesus... Water AND Spirit. They had the Spirit but still needed the water.

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I would disagree that born of water is referring to baptism, but of being born of woman.

 

I think the gist of the discussion was does baptism save a person....   not whether or not we should be baptized.  I don't think anyone I know of says that we shouldn't be baptized......    how can Jesus be your Lord if you don't follow him.

 

He can't be your Lord if you don't love God and your neighbors either, but does loving your neighbor save you?

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Guest Judas Machabeus

I would disagree that born of water is referring to baptism, but of being born of woman.

I respectfully disagree because Necudemus specifically asks Jesus how can one return to the womb and be born again. To which Jesus says you need to be born again of water and the Spirit.

It's very clear that Jesus is not talking about being born from a woman.

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I would disagree that born of water is referring to baptism, but of being born of woman.

 

I respectfully disagree because Necudemus specifically asks Jesus how can one return to the womb and be born again. To which Jesus says you need to be born again of water and the Spirit.

It's very clear that Jesus is not talking about being born from a woman.

 

let me ask you of a personal experience from my sophomore year in high school.....    If a person goes to the front of the church and publicly declares Jesus as his Lord and believes Jesus was raised from the dead on Wednesday night, and dies in a car accident on Saturday night when he was to be baptized on Sunday, is this person saved or not?

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Guest Judas Machabeus

The intention to be baptized was there. So I would have to think yes.

If he rejected baptism Than I would say he would be in grave danger.

For me it's clear that we are to be born again by water AND the Spirit. That is what man is bound to. God can choose to save in any manner he sees fit.

But we are not free to choose in what manner we are to be saved. Jesus told Necudemus very clearly when asked.

Same scenario but the young man dies before he can make that proclamation of faith. He gets into that car accident on his way to Church that day.

I would again think yes he would likely be saved.

Both those examples are exoordanary ( both car accident scenarios) circumstances and are not the norm.

The thief on the cross didn't get baptized. Does that mean we reject baptism. I say no again that was an exoordanary circumstance.

Necodimus was in no danger of being run over by a car and was not nailed to a cross therefore under ordanary circumstances we are to be baptized in order to be saved.

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Romans 10 gives a scenario that states that believing Jesus was raised by the Father and confessing Jesus's Lordship definitely will save a person, and it does not mention baptism at all.......    just something to think about.

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The thief on the cross was not baptized. Was he saved?

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