Is the Rapture Biblical?

[Last Daze]

Are you "Implying" that the "Time Frame"/events being discussed in Revelation 4 is before Christ was crucified?  

 

What is Rev 1,2,3...... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus??

 

(Revelation 4:1) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

 

Showing John things...Hereafter, is After the Seven Churches.  When were the 7 Churches established?  And WHO was giving the judgments regarding the 7 Churches?

 

 

 

Are you "Implying" that the "Time Frame"/events being discussed in Revelation 4 is before Christ was crucified?  

What is Rev 1,2,3...... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus??

 

 

Really?!?  Condescending sarcasm?  Hmmm.  Anyway......

 

Where exactly is Jesus in the beginning of the throne room scene of Revelation 4-5?  I can tell you where He isn't.  He isn't in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth.

 

No, I'm not necessarily implying that Revelation 4 is before the crucifixion, but it is probably before His resurrection though, otherwise, where is He?

 

The whole purpose of Rev 4-5, as I see it, is to show that "after these things" comes the opening of the scroll with seven seals.  This is done using two different scenes of the throne room.  These two scenes of Rev 4 and 5 are used to show that only Jesus, who has been given all authority on heaven and on earth, was worthy to open the scroll.  Before that, no one was found worthy.  Its the reason why the 24 elders sang a new song.  Why is it new?  Because its about Christ's redemption.  The old song that the 24 elders sang wasn't.  The first scene is before Christ's resurrection.  The second is after.

 

Where exactly was Jesus after His death and before His resurrection?  Or maybe it was before His crucifixion.  I don't know.  But clearly, Jesus is not there and the 24 elders are.  The 24 elders can not represent the church.

[OneLight]

As I was reading through this thread, it came upon me that my Interlinear is based on the KJV.  I looked up Revelation 5:9 and checked just one word ... was it book or scroll?  The Greek word is "bibilon", G975.  The short list of choices the authors had to choose from were: bill, book, scroll, and writing.  Digging a little deeper, we can find that the word means "A roll, volume, as was the form of ancient books."  Then I looked up the word "hemas" (G2248) in verse 10 and found it to mean, again from a short list: our, us, we.  Whether it is written "them" or "us". the word still points to the who it is referring to, "basileis (G935) kai (G2532) hiereis (G2409)", which means kings and sacred-ones (or priest).  The point is, how it points to the meaning is not important, and should not be a deal breaker when determining if the translation is right or wrong.
 
People put too much emphasis on trying to be perfect 100% of the time and disregards how the Holy Spirit teaches us all truth.  For this reason, I remind myself of Proverbs 3:5-6, which is the same no matter if it is the KJV or not.
 

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

Fighting over translations, unwilling to accept that God can work through even the most vile situations, only divides the body of Christ, where Christ Himself instructed us to be unified in Him. This never can bring the resolve He wants. Please, do not continue to argue which translation is right and which one is wrong.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Really?!?  Condescending sarcasm?  Hmmm.

 

 

It's neither.  Just a logical deduction (with some embellishment   )  based on your statement of the events of Revelation 4 being before the crucifixion..which is Preposterous.

 

 

Where exactly is Jesus in the beginning of the throne room scene of Revelation 4-5?  I can tell you where He isn't.  He isn't in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth.

 

 

Where is HE Then?

 

 

No, I'm not necessarily implying that Revelation 4 is before the crucifixion, but it is probably before His resurrection though

 

 

That's Baloney.  

 

(Revelation 1:10-11) "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,  {11} Saying,  I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:  and,  What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

 

When were these Churches Established? Well AFTER the Resurrection.  Revelation starts with The Seven Churches.

 

 

where is He?

 

 

Well, HE'S Here in Rev 1....

 

(Revelation 1:13-16) "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.  {14} His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;  {15} And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.  {16} And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

 

 

The whole purpose of Rev 4-5, as I see it, is to show that "after these things"

 

 

After what things?....  After the things that John was just shown; The Seven Churches.

 

 

Its the reason why the 24 elders sang a new song.  Why is it new?  Because its about Christ's redemption.  The old song that the 24 elders sang wasn't.

 

 

Post the Old Song......?

 

 

The first scene is before Christ's resurrection.  The second is after.

 

 

Not even close.  It doesn't even pass Basic Reasoning....

 

The Book of Revelation is the "Unveiling".  Revelation = "Unveiling".

 

Wasn't Christ's: Birth, Life, Death, and Resurrection already "Unveiled"; Ergo, Revealed??  Why would the already "Revealed" be the Base of a Book concerned with "Unveiling"??

 

 

Where exactly was Jesus after His death and before His resurrection?

 

 

It appears HE went to Tartarus to "Preach" to the bad guys that were/are chained since the Days of Noah.  Special Note:  That word "Preached" is not like preaching the Gospel... it denotes Heralding in, as in..... Heralding in VICTORY.

 

(1 Peter 3:18-20) "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;  {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

 

(2 Peter 2:4-5) "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;  {5} And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"

 

hell (in this passage) = Tartarus or the Abyss. 

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

 

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Really?!?  Condescending sarcasm?  Hmmm.

 

 

It's neither.  Just a logical deduction (with some embellishment   )  based on your statement of the events of Revelation 4 being before the crucifixion..which is Preposterous.

 

 

Where exactly is Jesus in the beginning of the throne room scene of Revelation 4-5?  I can tell you where He isn't.  He isn't in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth.

 

 

Where is HE Then?

 

 

No, I'm not necessarily implying that Revelation 4 is before the crucifixion, but it is probably before His resurrection though

 

 

That's Baloney.  

 

(Revelation 1:10-11) "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,  {11} Saying,  I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:  and,  What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

 

When were these Churches Established? Well AFTER the Resurrection.  Revelation starts with The Seven Churches.

 

 

where is He?

 

 

Well, HE'S Here in Rev 1....

 

(Revelation 1:13-16) "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.  {14} His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;  {15} And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.  {16} And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

 

 

The whole purpose of Rev 4-5, as I see it, is to show that "after these things"

 

 

After what things?....  After the things that John was just shown; The Seven Churches.

 

 

Its the reason why the 24 elders sang a new song.  Why is it new?  Because its about Christ's redemption.  The old song that the 24 elders sang wasn't.

 

 

Post the Old Song......?

 

 

The first scene is before Christ's resurrection.  The second is after.

 

 

Not even close.  It doesn't even pass Basic Reasoning....

 

The Book of Revelation is the "Unveiling".  Revelation = "Unveiling".

 

Wasn't Christ's: Birth, Life, Death, and Resurrection already "Unveiled"; Ergo, Revealed??  Why would the already "Revealed" be the Base of a Book concerned with "Unveiling"??

 

 

Where exactly was Jesus after His death and before His resurrection?

 

 

It appears HE went to Tartarus to "Preach" to the bad guys that were/are chained since the Days of Noah.  Special Note:  That word "Preached" is not like preaching the Gospel... it denotes Heralding in, as in..... Heralding in VICTORY.

 

(1 Peter 3:18-20) "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;  {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

 

(2 Peter 2:4-5) "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;  {5} And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"

 

hell (in this passage) = Tartarus or the Abyss. 

 

 

Fred Astaire would be proud.  You danced all around this question:

 

 

Where exactly is Jesus in the beginning of the throne room scene of Revelation 4-5?  I can tell you where He isn't.  He isn't in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth.

 

 

Where he actually is is irrelevant.  The point is that the elders are there and He is not.  Period.

 

The intention of Revelation 4-5 is to show that Jesus is the only one worthy to open the scroll.  A "before and after" scene is used to illustrate that point.  Not everything from Rev 4:1 on is strictly in the future, as in the case of Rev 12, when a little background info is used.

 

 

Post the Old Song......?

 

 

“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”  Revelation 4:11

 

Before you dismiss that on a technicality, that's how they sing...they say things:   And they sang a new song, saying... Revelation 5:9

 

I won't reply to anymore of your posts.  It seems that your approach is more the "letter of the law" and I prefer "the spirit of the law", the intention.  I don't think that dismissing what someone says on technicalities works toward the goal that I desire from these forum discussions.  Trying to understand what someone means does.

 

 

Really?!?  Condescending sarcasm?  Hmmm.

 

It's neither.  Just a logical deduction (with some embellishment   )  based on your statement of the events of Revelation 4 being before the crucifixion..which is Preposterous.

 

 

No....its both, regardless of what you call it, and another reason this will be my last reply to you.  Its not a style of communication that I find very beneficial.  In fact, it can cause strife if taken personally.  I don't really recommend it.

 

Be strong in the Lord, brother, and we'll compare notes after the fact, if we even care at that point.  But, I will buy you a Coke if pre-trib is correct.

[Marilyn C]

Good attitude, Last Daze.

 

Marilyn.

[Watching for Jesus]

Yes, the rapture is taught in the Bible.

 

The rapture is the gathering of the dead in Christ, along with those that are alive and remain, up to Christ to meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonans 4:15-17).

 

The rapture is the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

 

The rapture is when we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

 

The rapture is the Son of man coming in the clouds with His angels to gather the elect (Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27 and Luke 21:27-28).

 

The rapture is the gathering of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:30).

 

The rapture is the Son of man reaping (Revelation 14:14-17).  This event is also shown in Joel, Chapter 3.

 

The disagreement is in the timing of the rapture.

 

 

Jeff

[Last Daze]

Yes, the rapture is taught in the Bible.

 

The rapture is the gathering of the dead in Christ, along with those that are alive and remain, up to Christ to meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonans 4:15-17).

 

The rapture is the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

 

The rapture is when we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

 

The rapture is the Son of man coming in the clouds with His angels to gather the elect (Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27 and Luke 21:27-28).

 

The rapture is the gathering of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:30).

 

The rapture is the Son of man reaping (Revelation 14:14-17).  This event is also shown in Joel, Chapter 3.

 

The disagreement is in the timing of the rapture.

 

 

Jeff

 

A minor point, but important to note, is that the "catching up" happens after the dead in Christ rise first so most of your references to the rapture are actually references to the "resurrection then rapture" event.

[Watching for Jesus]

Hi, Last Daze.

 

I believe that the rapture occurs on the day of the Lord when the 7th trumpet sounds.  The rapture is when Jesus gathers His elect for the marriage of the Lamb.  Jesus will then take His elect up to heaven after the day of the Lord ends.  The marriage will be a short time later.

 

After the marriage, Jesus will return on the white horses with His bride to set up His kingdom on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:11-16 and 20:6).

 

The first resurrection will occur after Jesus returns on the white horses and the thrones are set up for judgment (Revelation 20:4-5 and Daniel 7:9-14).

 

 

The believers in Christ have to be gathered first to take part in the marriage.  Since the first resurrection is after the marriage, the only explanation is that the rapture is not a resurrection.

 

I know that It will be very hard to convince others of this.  I will discuss this further if you are interested.

 

 

The dead in Christ are "asleep".  What do you think  "the dead in Christ shall rise" means?  What is the "change" that will occur when we are "caught up"?

 

 

Jeff

[Last Daze]

Hi, Last Daze.

 

I believe that the rapture occurs on the day of the Lord when the 7th trumpet sounds.  The rapture is when Jesus gathers His elect for the marriage of the Lamb.  Jesus will then take His elect up to heaven after the day of the Lord ends.  The marriage will be a short time later.

 

After the marriage, Jesus will return on the white horses with His bride to set up His kingdom on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:11-16 and 20:6).

 

The first resurrection will occur after Jesus returns on the white horses and the thrones are set up for judgment (Revelation 20:4-5 and Daniel 7:9-14).

 

 

The believers in Christ have to be gathered first to take part in the marriage.  Since the first resurrection is after the marriage, the only explanation is that the rapture is not a resurrection.

 

I know that It will be very hard to convince others of this.  I will discuss this further if you are interested.

 

 

The dead in Christ are "asleep".  What do you think  "the dead in Christ shall rise" means?  What is the "change" that will occur when we are "caught up"?

 

 

Jeff

 

I see what you're saying but I don't see why the first resurrection is after the marriage and why Jesus takes the elect to heaven after the day of the Lord ends.

 

My understanding comes from:

 

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:21-23

 

From this I see three resurrections: Christ, those who are His at His coming, and at the end.

 

The first has already happened.  The second happens on the last day.

 

This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.  John 6:39

Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” John 11:24

 

I correlate this last day to the seventh (last) trumpet.

 

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

I see that as a resurrection since the dead are raised imperishable.  My guess is that we will be changed to that which is imperishable also.

 

When the seventh vial is poured out, it is done.  I see that as the day of the Lord being completed, just after Christ returns as described in Rev 19.

 

The marriage, as I see it, takes place between the seventh trumpet and the seventh vial, which I see as happening in the same day, the day of the Lord.

 

I used to be a sixth seal rapture person but have recently seen this seventh trumpet rapture to make a lot more sense.  I'd be willing to discuss.

[ghtan]

Hi Last Daze,

 

I don't think we should read 1 Cor 15:21-23 as a full listing of all the resurrections that will occur. If it were, there would be only two resurrections - Jesus, and those that belong to him when he comes. The third that you mention simply says Jesus will hand over the kingdom to God when the end comes; I see no mention of a resurrection there.

 

If we are stuck with only one resurrection other than that of Jesus, we would have a big problem because the raising of the two witnesses in ch 11 is a resurrection (albeit of only two people but then Christ was only one person and he is listed); that in 20:5 is actually called a resurrection; and there should be one together with the Rapture, as 1 Cor 15:52 implies. That makes three altogether. So I think 1 Cor 15:23 is not meant to provide an exhaustive list of resurrections.

 

I think quite a number of people put the rapture at the seventh trumpet of ch 11 but you seem to be suggesting that the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are different events that happen on the same day. Do you mean a 24-hour day? If so, there is a lot to fit in on that one day itself, not least the first 6 bowls. I can't see how that can be done.

 

Am I reading you correctly or have I misunderstood your meaning?