The Tribulation Period(s)...

[justfaith]

There are seven trumpets mentioned in the Book of Revelation (Rev.8:6). From the first trumpet to the seventh trumpet the world  will be undergoing the Great Tribulation                              (Rev. 8:7-13; 9:1-21 Rev 16:1-21). It is only at  the seventh trumpet after the tribulation  Jesus appears for His Church               

                            (Luke 21:25-28 Mark 13:24-28)

[rollinTHUNDER]

There is no rapture

For some believers, that will become a reality.

It's funny in a way, some believers expect to be raptured, some expect to become martyrs and some expect to be protected until Christ returns. Which of these is true, that is the $64,000.00 question??????

The answer is (all of the above).

The thing that makes this mystery so confusing and controversial is that most people do not realize that there will be three different rewards for believers. Not every believer will be ready when the Bridegroom appears. There will also be martyrs that will be overcome by the beast (Rev. 13:7), and then there will also be survivors that knew not to take the mark of the beast (Matt. 25:31-46).

If you want to be protected until the second coming, that will be no problem at all. But rest assured that His faithful servants will have already met Him in the clouds/air by then. And they will be returning with Christ at the second coming (Rev. 19:11-21), and so will the martyrs (Rev. 20:4), and they both will rule over the survivors (sheep) on the earth (those that get separated from the goats). So yes, I agree with you - for some, there will be no rapture.

Cheers

[ghtan]

The popular idea that the beast will rule over Israel during a final 42 months and that he will put his image in the Jerusalem temple in fulfilment of the abomination-of-desolation passages in Daniel, is not actually found in Revelation. Note that the word 'temple' is nowhere mentioned in ch 13 which majors on the beast. One would have thought that if such an important prophecy - mentioned three times in Daniel - were to be fulfilled by the beast, John would at least hint of it e.g. by mentioning the temple. But he does not, and the silence is deafening. It supports the view of many scholars that that particular prophecy has already been fulfilled in history, particularly by the Greek king Antiochus who set up an image of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 165BC. Jesus also mentioned that prophecy in Mk 13:14 but he was likely referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, though there are those who claim that it refers to the end time. My point is that if we allow such a disputed OT prophecy to dictate our understanding of Revelation when John himself does not mention it, we may be of setting ourselves up for disappointment.

[rollinTHUNDER]

The popular idea that the beast will rule over Israel during a final 42 months and that he will put his image in the Jerusalem temple in fulfilment of the abomination-of-desolation passages in Daniel, is not actually found in Revelation. Note that the word 'temple' is nowhere mentioned in ch 13 which majors on the beast. One would have thought that if such an important prophecy - mentioned three times in Daniel - were to be fulfilled by the beast, John would at least hint of it e.g. by mentioning the temple. But he does not, and the silence is deafening. It supports the view of many scholars that that particular prophecy has already been fulfilled in history, particularly by the Greek king Antiochus who set up an image of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 165BC. Jesus also mentioned that prophecy in Mk 13:14 but he was likely referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, though there are those who claim that it refers to the end time. My point is that if we allow such a disputed OT prophecy to dictate our understanding of Revelation when John himself does not mention it, we may be of setting ourselves up for disappointment.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Revelation 11:1-3

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

 

 

 

Cheers

[ghtan]

This is where I think there could be much disappointment. On the basis of this verse in particular, many expect the Jerusalem temple to be rebuilt. However, what if this does not refer to the Jerusalem temple? And there are several factors against it:

 

First, word usage. The word 'temple' appears about 15x in Revelation. Twice, in ch 21, it does not refer to any particular temple. The remaining 12 other times refer to the temple in heaven. If this is the only reference to the Jerusalem temple, one would expect John to say so, given that it would be an exception rather than the rule. But he does not. Consistency of word usage favours this to also be the temple in heaven.

 

Second, counting of worshippers. The word used for temple in 11:1 is the sanctuary itself, i.e. the holy place, not the whole temple precinct. Only priests enter the holy place to perform their duties and even then I think only at set times, e.g. Zechariah in Luke 1:9. The common Jew worships in the courtyard outside. Unless the rules change for the end time temple - and there is no reason to expect change - there would hardly be anyone in the sanctuary of such an end-time temple for John to count. On the other hand, all believers are allowed to worship in the temple sanctuary in heaven, and so there would be people there for John to count.

 

Third, the way it is introduced. If this is an end-time Jerusalem temple, it must be a vision because the temple had already been destroyed by the time John wrote. John often, though not always, introduces a new vision by "And I saw," e.g. most recently in 10:1. However, the way this temple is introduced in 11:1 is as if John finds himself in the vicinity of the temple. And by the end of the chapter, in vs 19, John is looking at the ark inside the temple in heaven. Would it not be more natural to think that what he measured in vs 1 was what he was looking inside later in vs 19?

 

I am not saying that the Jerusalem temple will not be rebuilt. Man is able to do many things but they need not be part of biblical prophecy. However, if 11:1 does not refer to the Jerusalem temple, there is nothing that requires the temple to be rebuilt. Then the risk is that the end could come unexpectedly if we rely on such signs to prepare ourselves for the end time.

Edited October 25, 2014 by ghtan

[Daniel 11:36]

There will be no temple of the Lord's on the mount during the coming tribulation period .... He said that not one stone will be left standing .... there is not today and there will not be during the coming tribulation

 

Orthodox Judaism desires a temple to be built on the mount, but this is not going to happen during the coming tribulation .... they think this must be done before their Messiah will come ..... Israel does not believe that Jesus is their Messiah and King who has already come and neither do they believe that the NT is valid including the book of Revelation .... the nation is in blindness today, does not understand the truth about Jesus, and they do not see the relationship of the Lord and His Bible prophets with regard for the time of the end

 

However, a remnant part of the nation will discover, turn, and believe the truth about the Lord during the coming tribulation [the time of Jacob's trouble] [Jeremiah 30] 

 

Notice in Revelation 11:1 that it is His temple in heaven that is mentioned first [those worshiping there will be the pre-tribulation church]

 

But the court on top of the mount on the earth has no temple of His [is "without" a temple of the Lord's]

 

The beast and His followers will overrun the temple mount and control it .... the Muslims of the Middle East

 

But there will be a temple on the mount for Satan's beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions to sit in .... this Mosque is already there today

 

This one will sit in the temple of his "god" who is Satan .... "Allah" is a fictitious pagan "god" .... a cover for Satan

 

Paul understood the relationship between a pagan "god" and related temple .... he will sit in the temple of "god"

 

The next temple build on the earth for the Lord will be His millennial temple after the tribulation period [Ezekiel 40] 

Edited October 25, 2014 by Daniel 11:36

[Last Daze]

The popular idea that the beast will rule over Israel during a final 42 months and that he will put his image in the Jerusalem temple in fulfilment of the abomination-of-desolation passages in Daniel, is not actually found in Revelation. Note that the word 'temple' is nowhere mentioned in ch 13 which majors on the beast. One would have thought that if such an important prophecy - mentioned three times in Daniel - were to be fulfilled by the beast, John would at least hint of it e.g. by mentioning the temple. But he does not, and the silence is deafening. It supports the view of many scholars that that particular prophecy has already been fulfilled in history, particularly by the Greek king Antiochus who set up an image of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 165BC. Jesus also mentioned that prophecy in Mk 13:14 but he was likely referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, though there are those who claim that it refers to the end time. My point is that if we allow such a disputed OT prophecy to dictate our understanding of Revelation when John himself does not mention it, we may be of setting ourselves up for disappointment.

 

Perhaps the image of the beast is not set up in the temple in Jerusalem.  Perhaps its a global code of laws that reflect the dominion that the false prophet exercises.  The beast with seven heads and ten horns is a fallen angel that empowers the false prophet to perform signs and wonders and consequently exercise dominion.  The image, or likeness, of that beast must also be something that expresses or demonstrates the false prophet's authoritative rule.  My thoughts on it are here:

[Daniel 11:36]

One must know just who the beast is first

 

Then you will be able to connect the dots and understand that his focused location defined by the Lord and His prophets which will definitely be Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount

 

So first one must understand who this beast is [satan, Abaddon, and the human "little" horn of Daniel's visions]

 

[Revelation 9:1; 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-19; Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 11:36-45; 12:7]

 

Satan and Abaddon are both fallen angels [Abaddon is the first beast of Revelation who will do Satan's bidding on the earth]..... the human little horn is called the "Assyrian" in Micah 5:5-6 .... the human Muslim king of the northern Middle East who will rise in the Iraq/Levant region of the ancient Assyrian Empire with its core at Nineveh [Mosul Iraq]

 

This is Satan's mimic .... Abaddon is his "antichrist" and the human little horn is the one that the Muslims of the Middle East will follow thinking that he is the 12 Imam or Mahdi of Islam .... it is Satan that will contrive this combination [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12]

 

If you can get your head around this composite revelation then you will know where all of this will be staged .... all of the scriptures above must be taken together for the correct rendering   

Edited October 26, 2014 by Daniel 11:36

[ghtan]

I posted this earlier but it did not appear. Maybe I forgot to sign in, but apologies if it appears twice.

 

The beast is likely a person, and so his image is probably human-looking otherwise it is difficult to see how it qualifies as an image. Besides, the false prophet will make the image "speak." The closest OT parallel is probably Nebuchanezzar's image in Dan 3, though that one did not talk. Significantly, it was placed on the plain of Dura, not in a temple.

[Daniel 11:36]

The key to the understanding of Satan's presentation of his "antichrist" is this one, Abaddon, the angel king of the abyss [Revelation 9:11]

 

This infernal rebelling angel is one who follows Satan's own ambition to be "God"

 

His profile is revealed in Revelation 17:8-18

 

This is Satan's mimic [the pretender] who rules over 7 Middle Eastern kingdoms, 5 are historical and there are 2 coming which will exist during the tribulation period .... first the 6th, and then the 7th [Revelation 13:1-4]

 

Abaddon like any created angel does not die and has existed since the beginning [Job 38:7]

 

There is a nesting in the northern Middle East from which Abaddon has ruled over human kingdoms and related king positions since the first post flood settlements and continuously up until the 5th kingdom just before the first century and the Lord's first advent

 

Here are the geographic extents of his first 5 kingdoms

 

The land of Magog, Meshech, and Tubal

The Assyrian Empire

The neo-Babylon Empire

The Medo/Persian and later outgrowth of the greater Persian Empire

Alexander's Asian holdings and specifically the outgrowth of the northern divide of Syrio/Babylonia [the Seleucid dominance]

 

The Bible's focus is upon Israel in the Middle East .... and so is the devil's because this is where the great controversy between the Lord and Satan will finish out upon the earth

 

Abaddon's 5th kingdom [head] fell .... and the prophets went silent ..... the last human king of the 5th kingdom was king Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35], the 69 week decreed for Israel came to pass terminating at the rejection of Jesus and His "cutting off" Daniel 9:26

 

Daniel's vision then moves to the time appointed [Daniel 11:36-45: 12:1-7] .... so do all of the other prophets the same including the Lord in His discourse related to the coming 70th week decreed .... the future time of Jacob's trouble .... the time of His hour of trial and judgment that is coming upon the whole world [Matthew 24;Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 3:10; 6:12-17; 8; 9; 10; 11; 12; 13; 14; 15; 16; 17; 18; 19]

 

At the ending of Abaddon's 5th kingdom [head wounded] this angelic beast was imprisoned in the abyss where he could no longer influence humanity

 

Israel was scattered and set aside, the Lord's age of grace was instituted at Pentecost, and the infilling of the Gentiles of the nations during the period is still ongoing [Romans 11:25-36]

 

The 70th week to complete is in front of us which will see the following [a remnant of Israel has returned to the Land of Israel for the nation to experience the 70th week decreed .... 2520 days + 30 days [Daniel 12]:  

 

Satan will be allowed to release Abaddon from the abyss [Revelation 9:1; 9:11]

He will then rule again over His 6th Middle Eastern kingdom [head healed]

He will then expand his 6th smaller kingdom into the 7th and final kingdom with 10 other human kings [horns]  [Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7-8; 11:36-45; Revelation 17:12]

 

The 11th horn of the set is the "little" human horn who becomes the beast .... Abaddon will be allowed to fully possess him

 

When this happens, Abaddon will become the 8th king and will rule for 42 months [the second 1260 days of  the 70th week decreed for Israel] [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12; Revelation 11:2; 12:6; 12:14; 13:1-5]

 

Watch the Middle East today for this setting up of the time of the end of this present age

Edited October 26, 2014 by Daniel 11:36