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the sin that cannot be forgiven?


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Guest shiloh357

The problem with believing that one's behanior affects their standing with God is that God's standard of perfection is Himself.   He is the standard against whom we are measured.  If my behavior has to be good enough to pass His standard, then I have to live just as holy as He is in all respects.   I would essentially have to be God in order to be as good as He is, to meet His standard of perfection.

 

Furthermore, if my behavior has to be good enough to keep myself saved, then my efforts really amount to me trying to save myself from God.  God is poised to revoke my salvation for committing a sin, then the only way to save myself from God is to live and be as perfect as He is every moment of every day.

 

It is truly sad that some are so caught up in false gospels of works-based systems that God actually becomes the enemy from whom we need salvation just to make it to heaven.

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Faith

 

So then faith cometh by hearing,

and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

Or

 

Thy word have I hid in mine heart,

that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

 

The Walk Of Shame

 

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief,

in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

 

~

 

The thing is Blue Moon, that is a doctrinal position....

It is obviously one that you were taught....

when you came to Christ....

so you continue to....

hold to it....

 

Others were not taught that....

They were taught that their behavior....

after salvation can effect their standing with God....

and can even cause them to lose their salvation....

 

That is why both sides fight so hard to defend their position.....

They become convinced they are correct....

and they won't consider....

they may have been....

taught wrong.....

 

:thumbsup:

 

It's

 

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9

 

Either Jesus

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

Or It's Not

 

Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done,

so none of us can boast about it. Ephesians 2:9 (NLT)

 

And The Two Sides

 

He that is not with me is against me:

and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. Luke 11:23

 

As Defined By The Master's Voice

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you,

He that heareth my word,

and believeth on him

that sent me,

 

hath everlasting life,

and shall not come into condemnation;

 

but is passed from death

unto life. John 5:24

 

~

 

Beloved, Are You Taught That You Walk This World Alone

 

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:

if any man hear my voice, and open the door,

I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

 

While God Just Sits And Watches

 

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,

and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

 

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins

in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

 

For Your Final Fall

 

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all,

 

how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?

 

It is God that justifieth.

Who is he that condemneth?

 

It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again,

who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

 

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long;

we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

 

Nay,

in all these things

we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

 

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, 

nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth,

nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, 

which is in Christ Jesus

our Lord. Romans 8:32-39

 

Think Again

 

As many as I love,

I rebuke and chasten:

be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:19

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

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I do have a question for you Blue Moon.  With regard to the people that led you to Christ, did they believe in unconditional eternal security?  I don't doubt you have studied the Word over the years, but are you saying that your original position was not OSAS and that you came to believe that over time, or are you just claiming that this position was re-affirmed over time through study?  I admit I was raised in a Methodist Church, that does not teach OSAS.  I have never been part of any church that teaches unconditional eternal security, and I have been part of several churches over the years.  I too have studied the Bible, and have come to the conclusion you can lose your salvation due to sin. 

 

As to what Shiloh said, that is not true.  We would not have to live up to God's perfect standard to remain saved.  As I have stated before, we are just required to do our best, and when we come up short, God gives us grace.  It is only through willful or pre-meditated sins we can lose our salvation.  That is because that is they system God put in place.  God does not become our enemy.  He is a friend, so long as we do whatsoever he commands us to do. 

 

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.  John 15:14

 

Then said Jesus to those Jews that believed on him, if ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.  John 8:31,32

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.  John 8:51

 

Here is an interesting scripture from Revelation 3:5.  It is especially interesting in light of Exodus 32:32,33

 

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

 

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--, and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.  And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

 

People who believe in OSAS like to throw scriptures around like the one that says no man can pluck us out of God's hands, never even considering that it doesn't say we can't walk away of our own accord or by our own actions.  Those on both sides of this debate have scriptures they use to defend their position, only to have those on the other side say they don't mean what they appear to mean.  Those on both sides think those who don't agree with them are promoting false doctrine.  I think unconditional eternal security is false doctrine and a false gospel.  Shiloh thinks disbelief in unconditional eternal security is a false gospel.  This church has been divided over this since the reformation, and I suspect will continue to be divided over this till Jesus returns. 

 

@Fresno Joe, I have read all those scriptures you posted, and like you, I can post scriptures throughout the Bible that show we can lose our salvation based on our actions.  We all have scriptures we use to defend our position, and we also interpret scriptures different.  We read the same passages, but see their meaning in a different way.  Lets take John 3:16 for a moment.  Yes, those who believe on Jesus have eternal life, but what does that mean?  I have heard many people say they believe in Jesus, but they don't serve him.  When it says believe, does that simply mean to believe he is the Son of God, or does it mean to serve him?  If it simply means to believe, there are many sinners going to heaven.  That is one horrible translation you used for Ephesians 2:9.  What it actually says is, "Not of works, lest any man should boast."  We can't boast, regardless how well we do.  We are only doing our duty when we obey God.  We know that one sin would keep us out of heaven, and we have all fallen short at one time or another, plus there is original sin.  There is no boasting for anyone.  That doesn't prove OSAS.  Your scripture from Luke has zero to do with unconditional eternal security.  Your scripture from John 5 is the same as John 3:16.  Does it mean that everyone that believes Jesus is the Son of God is automatically saved, even if they don't choose to open the door to their heart and let him in?  It appears that is what it is saying, but even those who believe in OSAS know that there are sinners that believe in Jesus who aren't saved.  Again, it comes down to interpretation. 

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Guest shiloh357

The notion that there is something called "wilful sin" versus some other kind of sin is a false dichotomy. In one sense, ALL sin is wilful.  All sin is rebellion.  No one sins on accident.   God only has ONE standard of perfection.   If the claim is that we must be perfect, the Bible only offers one standard of perfection and that is God.   If we must be perfect in order to stay saved, then we have to operate by the only standard that Scripture offers. 

 

The Bible doesn't even use the term wilful sins.   That is inaccurate and incorrect grammar.   The Bible says in Hebrews that I we continue to sin wilfully...    it doesn't say, "if you commit wilful sins..."     The term in Hebrews 10, "wilfully sin"  are an adverb and a verb.    Adverbs modify the verb.  "Willfully is not an adjective describing sin as a noun, as if it is a particular kind of sin.  It is an adverb that modifies a verb, a particular type of action.  It means that if we keep on sinning on purpose (willfully) when we know the truth is, we have nothing left to us but the judgment of God.  Wilful doesn't equal pre-meditated.   I can sin in a moment of passion.  I can react sinfully by cussing someone out and I never planned it or pre-meditated.   So, again, it's a false dichotomy that wilfully sinning indicates a pre-meditated.

 

 

He is talking about actions, not a kind of sin.   He is talking about continuing to sin in a wilful manner in light of the truth you already know.   It has not about a pre-meditated sin, but of the sin of apostasy.   But good grammar is lost on some people...   

 

This notion that only pre-meditated sins cause the loss of salvation in the Bible.  That is a human standard being imposed on the Bible.  

 

Revelation 3:5  is actually an affirmation that salvation can' be lost.   The one who overcomes is the one who has received Jesus as Savior (I John 5:4-5)  The overcomer is the one who is born again.   So...   To the one who overcomes (receives Jesus as Savior),  He promises he will not blot their name from the book of life.   In fact, "will not" in the Greek is a double negative added for emphasis.   It reads, "The one who overcomes ( is born again) the same will be clothed in white raiment and  I will not, no, never blot his name from the book of life."  It has nothing to do with Exodus and Moses talking about being blotted out of God's book.  That is a completely different issue and context.   Moses is talking about the book or record of those living on the earth, not the book of life.  It would take some skill in the Word of God to know the difference, though.

 

People who believe in Eternal Security believe that a person who is saved won't ever walk away from God, will never forsake Him or remove themselves.   They are a new creation and old things are passed away.   There is nothing in a true believer that would make them ever do that.  No truly saved person is looking for a way out of salvation, ever.

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Just a point in fact to what Shiloh has said about walking away from God-
If you believe in the Bible so that it has reverberated through your being
as truth there remains no place to walk but to God... you see truth! Lie

no longer has a hold on you for you to desire its manufacture thus
1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they
had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but
they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were
not all of us.
KJV

We see this in Peter clear viewing
John 6:68-69
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou
hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure
that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
KJV

Love, Steven
 

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@Fresno Joe, I have read all those scriptures you posted, and like you....
I can post scriptures throughout the Bible that show...
we can lose our salvation...
based on our....
actions....

 

:thumbsup:

 

I Have No Doubt That The Act Of Denial Of Christ Will Surely Kill A Fellow

 

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:11-13

 

And I Know That Walking In Self-Sanctification Is Denial Of Christ

 

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

 

So, I Truly Believe We Will Either Trust In Jesus

 

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men,

him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. Luke 12:8-10

 

Or We Will Rot

 

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities,

like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

 

Away

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Butero, as a son of our Father, I trust in Him, I believe in eternal security.  As I see it, the passages you provide do not affect my eternal security, only my walk with Him.

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I do have a question for you Blue Moon.  With regard to the people that led you to Christ, did they believe in unconditional eternal security?  I don't doubt you have studied the Word over the years, but are you saying that your original position was not OSAS and that you came to believe that over time, or are you just claiming that this position was re-affirmed over time through study?  I admit I was raised in a Methodist Church, that does not teach OSAS.  I have never been part of any church that teaches unconditional eternal security, and I have been part of several churches over the years.  I too have studied the Bible, and have come to the conclusion you can lose your salvation due to sin. 

 

As to what Shiloh said, that is not true.  We would not have to live up to God's perfect standard to remain saved.  As I have stated before, we are just required to do our best, and when we come up short, God gives us grace.  It is only through willful or pre-meditated sins we can lose our salvation.  That is because that is they system God put in place.  God does not become our enemy.  He is a friend, so long as we do whatsoever he commands us to do. 

 

People who believe in OSAS like to throw scriptures around like the one that says no man can pluck us out of God's hands, never even considering that it doesn't say we can't walk away of our own accord or by our own actions.  Those on both sides of this debate have scriptures they use to defend their position, only to have those on the other side say they don't mean what they appear to mean.  Those on both sides think those who don't agree with them are promoting false doctrine.  I think unconditional eternal security is false doctrine and a false gospel.  Shiloh thinks disbelief in unconditional eternal security is a false gospel.  This church has been divided over this since the reformation, and I suspect will continue to be divided over this till Jesus returns. 

 

Butero, my friend, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Regarding my past, as I mentioned previously, I came to Christ when I was 17, immediately prior to going to college. I came to Christ at a church camp, so no time for discipleship from my home church. In college, I was faced with different views of Scripture in that college environment, so I had to begin studying immediately. As for my soteriological history regarding eternal security, I began in the OSAS camp, and after a few years, went to the "able to lose your salvation" camp, became convicted that that view was not of God, and returned to the OSAS camp. It's also very funny (not ha ha) that you mentioned that OSAS'ers like to "throw Scriptures around like the one that says no man can pluck us out of God's hands, never even considering that it doesn't say we can't walk away of our own accord or by our own actions." That's exactly the Scripture and explanation, down to the very words, that I used when I went over to the "dark side." :) However, when I used that Scripture above (John 10:28 NKJV And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand), I was emphasizing the first part of the verse, not the last part - And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; This means that ONCE we receive eternal life, we shall NEVER lose it. The second part just reenforces the first part. Notice that it doesn't say that we will never perish as long as we continue in good works. Also, to reiterate one other thing I mentioned previously, I firmly believe that if someone walks away, they were never believers to begin with.

 

1 John 2:19(ESV) 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Luke 8:13(ESV) (Sower sowing the seeds) 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

 

I am in complete agreement with shiloh357. It does take perfection in order to be saved and it takes perfection to remain saved. I'm not perfect, but when the Father sees me, He doesn't see my imperfections (SIN in other words). He sees the precious blood of His Son. Works are not required for salvation and works are not required to keep our salvation. However, works are our responsibility after salvation (Ephesians 2:10), but they do not maintain our salvation.

As I mentioned above, Butero, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Blessings, Brother.

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There is a serious problem with Shiloh's position about willful sins verses sinning willfully.  Shiloh said the correct meaning is if we keep on sinning on purpose.  To do something on purpose is to do something willful.  The only thing he is saying is in his explanation of the verse, he is claiming the person was never saved.  The verse still shows a distinction with regard to doing something willful as opposed to by accident, as in the OT law of Moses, there is a distinction in a sin done by accident as opposed to one done presumptuously.  Of course you can sin by accident.  People do things all the time that fall short of the glory of God without knowing it.  Job's friends didn't know they were sinning when they were trying to explain why Job was being afflicted, but they were. 

 

To Fresno Joe.  If self sanctification is denial of Christ, and if a denial of Christ will kill a fellow, then you have just given us a way to lose our salvation.  You can start out in faith, and then move away from it by trying to sanctify self. 

 

To Blue Moon.  The people that will never perish are those pre-destined to eternal life.  We have no way of knowing who they are.  God knows, because he created them, but we don't know.  A person can think they belong to Christ and they may not, because they may fall away in the end.  In the mind of God, those who belong to him are going to be guaranteed eternal life, but that is because he knows who will endure.  He also knows who will walk away for a time, but will return before they die.  We don't have that knowledge.  Those who are saved today and turn away from God and die in their sins will be lost, but in the mind of God, they were never really his to begin with because he knows the beginning from the end.  On the other hand, those who are not saved, but are chosen, will be saved before they die.  God already knows who they are, but we don't.  Anyway, I am fine with agreeing to disagree.  The main point I was making is that a large portion of the Christian church believes in OSAS and a large portion of the Christian church rejects it, and I don't see many people converting from one belief to the other.  They just tend to remain steadfast in whatever position they believe. 

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