Christian perfection

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

No,believers are not under the law.   Paul switched topics.   You are not using proper interpretive skills on that chapter.   You can easily see the switch from the law to the flesh if you are willing to read the text without the filters of your preconceptions.

 

 

Romans 7:What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin (Header note in the NKJV)

 

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Here's two laws at war - Commandments (Moses law) and the law of sin. If we are not under the law.

Paul cries out, who can save me from this mess? Jesus - the answer,

We're under a new law, a new commandment, a new covenant. The law of life in the Spirit. What the law, couldn't do, God did by sending His son. RIghteousness is apart from the law.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

 

 

Yeah, you're not getting it, Joshua.   In Rom. 7:1-13  Paul is explaining that the law was incapable of doing anything but bringing him under condemnation.  He begins with an analogy that depicts us as married to the law and thus unable to be joined to Christ.  The Law is the husband that dies, but in Paul's explanation we died to the Law.  We are both the wife who lives and we are the husband that dies.  The Law is depicted as dying to the wife, but we are said to have died to the Law.  A very peculiar approach used by Paul.   We are still alive to Christ as His bride, but we are dead to the Law.

 

The Law can only say to you, "you're a sinner."   The Law incites our sinful passions because it reveals the rebellious fleshly nature.    Paul's point is that that he had no way of knowing what sin is except from the Law.

 

Say that the man is driving down the highway and there are no posted speed limits.  The man can drive as fast as he wants he is driving at 100 mph..  But if he suddenly comes to a stretch of highway that does have a posted speed limit of 65 mph, and he still continues, his will rebels and his rebellion is further aroused by the threats of "speed limit strictly enforced."   The speed limit sign did not create in him the desire to speed; his desire to speed was already present within him.   The speed limit law brings him into awareness of his rebellion against authority.  

 

The Law reveals what sin is and Paul's point in those first 13 verses is that God's Law (doing what it was designed to do) reveals sin and offers nothing but condemnation.  Paul, when coming face to face with his understands his unregenerate condition before God. He understands that far from being an impediment to sin, God's Law simply reveals his sin and this places him in rebellion against God.  So before a person is saved, they are revealed as standing in condemnation before God and are revealed as being a rebel against God.   That's pre-Christian.   Paul is speaking past tense, before he was saved.

 

So in the first 13 verses, Paul is dealing with us being dead to the Law.    In verses 14-25   Paul is talking about us being dead to sin/the flesh.    Those who are not born again are not dead to to sin or the flesh, so Paul CANNOT be talking about his per-conversion experience in this latter half.   You are mistaken that Paul is still talking about his life before he was saved.  That is simply not the case and that is proven by the fact that Paul switches from referring to himself in the past tense and begins speaking in the present tense.  Present tense, means "right now."

 

I realize that your theology can't accommodate that fact, but that shows a glaring flaw in your theology

 

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.  (Rom 7:18-23)

 

Those are the words of a pre-convert.   Look particularly at verses. 21-23.  Unbelievers don't have two laws working inside them.   Unbelievers don't fight this war with the flesh that Paul depicts here.   Paul is depicting a struggle that is only unique to followers of Jesus.   Buddhists don't struggle this way.  Atheists don't struggle this way.  Muslims don't have this struggle.  Neither do Hindus.   This is a struggle to follow God against the desires of the flesh to rebel and only believers are indwelt by an inner desire to serve God. 

 

 In verse 25 Paul gives thanks fr the rescue provided by Christ.   Here is one the most important arguments in favor of applying verses 14-25 to the Christian experience.  Only a Christian knows to thank God for deliverance in Christ.  This shows that Paul writes as a Christian, knowing ultimate victory ,but also keenly aware of the struggle between the power of sin that marks his existence in this life.

 

Tell me something Shiloh.  Before you accepted Christ, did you have feelings of guilt for violating God's Law?  Did you hate the things you were doing knowing you were sinning against God and that your sins were the reason Christ had to die on the cross? Did you want to serve God, yet only continued to do what you didn't want to do?  Your answer to these would have to be "yes".  If your answer is "no" then you never would have sought salvation for you would not have felt there was anything from which you would need to be saved.  You came to Christ because you knew there was nothing good in you, you wanted to do good but you did not do it.  If this is not the case, why did you come to Christ?  If you were not doing the things you didn't want to do after you knew them to be sins, then you would not have guilt, and certainly would not have needed Christ.  All Christians came to Christ because they knew it was Christ that would save them from there life of guilt, sadness, and turmoil.  We want to have the joy and peace that are only in Christ.  Those who have come to believe have all had the struggle Paul describes in Romans 7.  This struggle is the reason why we sought Christ.  No one comes to Christ unless they have this struggle.

 

Your first error is in your understanding of the state he says he was in when asking the question in verse 24.  You claim he was saved, a Christian.   However the phrasing of the question indicates otherwise.  The question asked is "what can save me from this body of death"? Why would he ask what can save him if he is already saved as you claim he is?  The answer he gives also indicates the same.  He says "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord".  The answer he gives is how he can be saved from the body of death.  He would not be answering how he can be saved if he was already saved.  If he was already saved, his answer would have been "I am saved because of Jesus Christ".    

 

The second error is your belief of what this chapter represents contradicts your belief that it is those who habitually sin (practice sin) who won't be saved. According to your belief about this chapter, the person Paul is describing is only continually sinning, doing nothing of what he knows to be right.  The life being described is one where sin is practiced for he is only doing what he hates.

 

The third error in believing Paul is speaking of his life after Christ is that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit.  If he had His Spirit, he would not be doing what he hates for the one who is lead by the Spirit will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.  If this chapter is describing his life as a Christian then everything he claimed he was doing in the other books he wrote would be lies.  He says he took every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  He says he imitates Christ.  He says he once was disobedient.  Everyone of his claims about himself in the other books contradicts your belief.  Paul says we are to imitate him as he imitates Christ.  If he continued to sin as you claim he did then he is telling us to continue to sin as he did for that would be his example for us to imitate.

 

You are so stuck on your belief that only Christ's death on the cross saves you that you are blind to everything else Christ taught.  Paul says the blessing God promised to Abraham through his seed is the Holy Spirit, Gal 3:13-14 .

 

(13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--  (14)  in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

Why did God promise His Holy Spirit?  The Spirit is given to circumcise our hearts.

 

Your example about speeding argues against what you are trying to say Shiloh.  Before the speed limit sign he did not know the Law.  But when he saw the speed limit sign he then knew the Law, he now knew speeding was wrong (sin).  Now he (his spirit) wishes to go the speed limit (wishes to follow the Law because the law is spiritual) because he knows it is right, but he is unable to do so because of the weakness of his flesh.  He is now doing that which he hates (he hates it because the Law revealed it to him to be sin) and is unable to do what his spirit wants to do.  Now he is in a miserable state because he is caught in a war which he cannot win.  Being in this miserable state he asks what can save him.  The answer to his question is Jesus Christ through whom he will receive the Spirit  which will teach and lead him so that he no longer speeds, giving him victory over his sin.  Where sin remains there is no victory.  Without Christ we would not receive His Spirit which sets us free from the law of sin and death.  Jesus Christ is the answer, but He is the answer because He died while we were yet sinners, while we were still helpless, so that we could have remission of our sins, and was raised from the dad and returned to the Father so that He could send His Spirit (the Helper) unto us.  So that we would no longer be sinners, because we are no longer helpless.  Christ provided everything for life and godliness so that we can partake of his divine nature, having escaped the corruption of the world by lust.

 

So the process Paul is speaking of in Romans 7 is as follows:

1. We lived according to the passions of the flesh without knowledge of God, without the Law.  We were alive apart from the Law, verse 9.
2. Verse 6-13: When the Law came (when we learned the Law), sin was aroused in us and our passions worked in our bodies bearing fruit unto death.
3. Verses 14-23:  Now that we know the Law and that we know we are sinning against God we want to good, but we don't do good because our fleshly desires are stronger than our spiritual desire to serve God.   Therefore we continue to do the things we don't want to do and don't do the things we do want to do.  That is to say that with our mind we are serving the Law of God but with our flesh the law of sin. This is purely a battle within ourselves by ourselves under the Law.  The Spirit is not in us for we have not even accepted Christ at this point.  We have not been released from the Law, we have not yet died to the law.  Sin has become utterly sinful through the commandment which is why we hate it.  We believe we are sinning against God but have not sought a way out of this wretched condition. We are still slaves of sin in this condition.
4. Verse 24-25:  We recognize we need help being in this miserable state, saying wretched man that I am, what can save me from this body of death?  We learn that through Jesus Christ we can be saved from this body of death.  We have acknowledged that there is a war within us that we cannot win on our own.

This describes how an unbeliever comes to know Christ.  They are in the world, living according to the world not knowing what they are doing is sinning against God.  They are alive apart from the Law.  Then some one comes teaching them about God and His Law so that they will know they are sinning against God.  Now sin and death are reigning in them because they know they are sinning against God. Guilt springs up in them because they are serving the flesh while at the same time desiring to serve God.  Do to the guilt they feel they ask what can save me from this wretched state?  Someone answers them, saying Christ came to this earth in the likeness of men, offered himself up on a cross without blemish through the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14 so that we might have forgiveness of sins.  They are told Christ left this example for us to follow, 1 Peter 2:21. They are taught to believe in Christ, to repent of their sins and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins so that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit through whom Christ did not sin.  They are told that through the Spirit they will not fulfill the desires of the flesh thus winning the war against their flesh.  They believe in Christ and the promised Holy Spirit.  They repent and are baptized for the remission of their sins and receive His Spirit.   Through the Spirit they are able to overcome the desires of the flesh which they could not do before.  Thus, they are saved from their body of death through Christ who promised them the gift of the Holy Spirit.  For without Christ they would not have received His Spirit.

 

Romans 8:1-14

Now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus for they have been set free from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ.  For while under the Law we could not overcome sin do to the weakness of our flesh.  However, God sent His son in the likeness of the flesh as an offering for our sin.  In so doing He condemned sin in the flesh and fulfilled the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in those who walk according to the Spirit (i.e. those who do not fulfill the desires of the flesh, being lead by the Spirit).  These are those who are no longer living according to the flesh.  They are now able to please God, having His Spirit.  Like Christ was raised from the dead, our mortal bodies are given life through His Spirit because we have put to death the deeds of the body.  Because they are lead by His Spirit they are called children of God.

 

 

 

Do you believe that there is nothing in you that is good? If your born again and your spirit is alive, joined with the Holy Spirit, is that spirit good and in you?

 

There is nothing good in my flesh, as Paul would say.    You need to understand that the whole of person is yet to be changed or transformed.   The part of you that is born again doesn't sin and doesn't struggle with sin.   But you have a flesh nature.  There are parts of you that are not regenerate at this point and so that is the locus of the struggle with sin that all of us have; some to a greater degree and others to a lesser degree.  

 

It's not the case that we are slaves to sin, but neither is it the case that our fleshly nature is eradicated.   We have to put the flesh to death every day, but that only highlights that there is a struggle.  There is desire in us to sin that we have to confront on a daily basis.   Most of the New Testament would not make any sense to us if we didn't have flesh nature that had to be put to death on a daily basis.   

 

I am dead to sin in that I am born of God.  The real "me,"  the part that is born from above doesn't' sin and is, in fact, dead to sin.  But there is a flesh nature in me that isn't dead to sin and I have to be honest about that.  I have to put that nature to death every day.  I have to live in such a way that I make no provision for the lusts of the flesh and dos not allow the flesh to gain ascendency.  The flesh nature is there and will always be there until I die.     And as a human being and a redeemed, yet fallen sinner, it is possible for me, on occasion to lose a battle or two.  But that is why we have the grace of God in our lives.  If we all lived perfectly sinless lives, we would not need His grace. 

 

The presence of God's grace in our lives is testimony to our imperfection and the possibility that we will stumble.  God would not provide grace to us if that weren't the case.  Grace makes no sense if it is only offered to the people who are incapable of sinning, and live perfectly and flawlessly.    To employ an analogy that I used earlier, it would be like having a car insurance company that only insures people who don't have accidents.  Entirely pointless.

 

I do agree with you on this one thing.  Our flesh does wage war with us as a Christian, but our battle is not with sin it is with temptation.  If we give into temptation we have lost the war.

 

Jas 1:13-18  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.  (14)  But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.  (15)  Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.  (16)  Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.  (17)  Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.  (18)  In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

 

Sin brings forth death.  James is written to Christians and it is blatantly stating what will happen to those who sin, any sin.  No habit, just sin.  We are to be a kind of first fruits.  If we do not turn from our wicked ways to serve the living God then we are no different than the rest of the world.

 

If we are hearers only we delude ourselves.  It is the word of God that is able to save our souls if we do what it says.

 

Jas 1:21-22  Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.  (22)  But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

 

If we do not bridle our tongue our religion is useless and if we are stained by the world our religion is impure and defiled. When we sin we are stained by the world.  How can you say we will still sin?

 

Jas 1:26-27  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless.  (27)  Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

 

Tell me something Shiloh.  Before you accepted Christ, did you have feelings of guilt for violating God's Law?  Did you hate the things you were doing knowing you were sinning against God and that your sins were the reason Christ had to die on the cross? Did you want to serve God, yet only continued to do what you didn't want to do?  Your answer to these would have to be "yes".  If your answer is "no" then you never would have sought salvation for you would not have felt there was anything from which you would need to be saved.  You came to Christ because you knew there was nothing good in you, you wanted to do good but you did not do it.  If this is not the case, why did you come to Christ?  If you were not doing the things you didn't want to do after you knew them to be sins, then you would not have guilt, and certainly would not have needed Christ to save you.  All Christians came to Christ because they knew it was Christ that would save them from there life of guilt, sadness, and turmoil, from the wretched state they were in being unable to to truly serve God.  We wanted to have the joy and peace that are only in Christ.  Those who have come to believe have all had the struggle Paul describes in Romans 7, but it was before accepting Christ.  This struggle is the reason why we sought Christ.  No one comes to Christ unless they have this struggle.

 

Your first error is in your understanding of the state he says he was in when asking the question in verse 24.  You claim he was saved, a Christian.   However the phrasing of the question indicates otherwise.  The question asked is "what can save me from this body of death"? Why would he ask what can save him if he is already saved as you claim he is?  The answer he gives also indicates the same.  He says "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord".  The answer he gives is how he can be saved from the body of death.  He would not be answering how he can be saved if he was already saved.  If he was already saved, his answer would have been "I am saved because of Jesus Christ".    

 

The second error is your belief of what this chapter represents contradicts your belief that it is those who habitually sin (practice sin) who won't be saved. According to your belief about this chapter, the person Paul is describing is only continually sinning, doing nothing of what he knows to be right.  The life being described is one where sin is practiced for he is only doing what he hates.

 

The third error in believing Paul is speaking of his life after Christ is that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit.  If he had His Spirit, he would not be doing what he hates for the one who is lead by the Spirit will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.  If this chapter is describing his life as a Christian then everything he claimed he was doing in the other books he wrote would be lies.  He says he took every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  He says he imitates Christ.  He says he once was disobedient.  Everyone of his claims about himself in the other books contradicts your belief.  Paul says we are to imitate him as he imitates Christ.  If he continued to sin as you claim he did then he is telling us to continue to sin as he did for that would be his example for us to imitate.

 

Fourth, a house divided against itself cannot stand.  If we continue to sin, even once, then our house is divided, for sin and righteousness can not reside together.  

 

You are so stuck on your belief that Christ's death on the cross is the only thing that saves you that you are blind to everything else Christ taught.  Paul says the blessing God promised to Abraham through his seed is the Holy Spirit, Gal 3:13-14.

 

(13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--  (14)  in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

Why did God promise His Holy Spirit?  The Spirit is given to circumcise our hearts so that we will serve God and God alone in soul, mind, body, and spirit.

 

Your example about speeding argues against what you are trying to say Shiloh.  Before the speed limit sign he did not know the Law.  But when he saw the speed limit sign he then knew the Law, therefore he now knows speeding was wrong (sin).  Now he (his spirit) wishes to go the speed limit (wishes to follow the Law because the law is spiritual) because he knows it is right, but he is unable to do so because of the weakness of his flesh.  He is now doing that which he hates (he hates it because the Law revealed it to him to be sin) and is unable to do what his spirit wants to do for nothing good resides in him.  Now he is in a miserable state because he is caught in a war which he cannot win, he always gives into sin and keeps speeding.  Being in this miserable state he asks what can save him.  The answer to his question is Jesus Christ through whom he will receive the Spirit, God's promise,  which will teach and lead him so that he no longer speeds (sins), giving him victory over his sin.  The Spirit is like a governor on a car which only allows the car to go to a speed slower than the car can actually go.  When the  governor is in the car, the driver cannot speed, but with out the governor the driver can go as fast as he wants.  The Spirit governs our lives so that we will be like Christ.  

 

Where sin remains there is no victory.  Without Christ we would not receive His Spirit which sets us free from the law of sin and death.  Jesus Christ is the answer, but He is the answer because He died while we were yet sinners, while we were still helpless, so that we could have remission of our sins, and He was raised from the dead and returned to the Father so that He could send His Spirit (the Helper) unto us.  So that we would no longer be sinners (we have been cleansed), because we are no longer helpless.  Christ provided everything for life and godliness so that we can partake of his divine nature, having escaped the corruption of the world by lust.

 

So the process Paul is speaking of in Romans 7 is as follows:

1. We lived according to the passions of the flesh without knowledge of God, without the Law.  We were alive apart from the Law, verse 9.
2. Verse 6-13: When the Law came (when we learned the Law), sin was aroused in us and our passions worked in our bodies bearing fruit unto death.
3. Verses 14-23:  Now that we know the Law and that we know we are sinning against God we want to good, but we don't do good because our fleshly desires are stronger than our spiritual desire to serve God.   Therefore we continue to do the things we don't want to do and don't do the things we do want to do.  That is to say that with our mind we are serving the Law of God but with our flesh the law of sin. This is purely a battle within ourselves by ourselves under the Law.  The Spirit is not in us for we have not even accepted Christ at this point.  We have not been released from the Law, we have not yet died to the law.  Sin has become utterly sinful through the commandment which is why we hate it.  We believe we are sinning against God but have not sought a way out of this wretched condition. We are still slaves of sin in this condition.
4. Verse 24-25:  We recognize we need help being in this miserable state, saying wretched man that I am, what can save me from this body of death?  We learn that through Jesus Christ we can be saved from this body of death.  We have acknowledged that there is a war within us that we cannot win on our own.

This describes how an unbeliever comes to know Christ.  They are in the world, living according to the world not knowing what they are doing is sinning against God.  They are alive apart from the Law.  Then some one comes teaching them about God and His Law so that they will know they are sinning against God.  Now sin and death are reigning in them because they know they are sinning against God. Guilt springs up in them because they are serving the flesh while at the same time desiring to serve God.  Due to the guilt they feel, they ask what can save me from this wretched state?  Someone answers them, saying Christ came to this earth in the likeness of men, offered himself up on a cross without blemish through the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14, so that we might have forgiveness of sins.  They are told Christ left this example for us to follow, 1 Peter 2:21. They are taught to believe in Christ, to repent of their sins and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins so that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit through whom Christ did not sin.  They are told that through the Spirit they will not fulfill the desires of the flesh thus winning the war against their flesh.  They believe in Christ and the promised Holy Spirit.  They repent and are baptized for the remission of their sins and receive His Spirit.   Through the Spirit they are able to overcome the desires of the flesh which they could not do before.  Thus, they are saved from their body of death through Christ who promised them the gift of the Holy Spirit.  For without Christ they would not have received His Spirit.

 

Romans 8:1-14

Now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus for they have been set free from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ.  For while under the Law we could not overcome sin due to the weakness of our flesh.  However, God sent His Son in the likeness of the flesh as an offering for our sin.  In so doing He condemned sin in the flesh and fulfilled the requirement of the Law forthose who walk according to the Spirit (i.e. those who do not fulfill the desires of the flesh, being lead by the Spirit).  These are those who are no longer living according to the flesh.  They are now able to please God, having His Spirit.  Like Christ was raised from the dead, their mortal bodies are given life through His Spirit because we have put to death the deeds of the body.  Because they are lead by His Spirit they are called children of God.

[Guest shiloh357]

Tell me something Shiloh.  Before you accepted Christ, did you have feelings of guilt for violating God's Law?  Did you hate the things you were doing knowing you were sinning against God and that your sins were the reason Christ had to die on the cross? Did you want to serve God, yet only continued to do what you didn't want to do?  Your answer to these would have to be "yes".  If your answer is "no" then you never would have sought salvation for you would not have felt there was anything from which you would need to be saved.  You came to Christ because you knew there was nothing good in you, you wanted to do good but you did not do it.  If this is not the case, why did you come to Christ?  If you were not doing the things you didn't want to do after you knew them to be sins, then you would not have guilt, and certainly would not have needed Christ.  All Christians came to Christ because they knew it was Christ that would save them from there life of guilt, sadness, and turmoil.  We want to have the joy and peace that are only in Christ.  Those who have come to believe have all had the struggle Paul describes in Romans 7.  This struggle is the reason why we sought Christ.  No one comes to Christ unless they have this struggle.

 

Before I came to Christ there was no such struggle.   I didn't really care.  I lived for myself and what I wanted.  I didn't live in debauchery and immorality, but I was no less a rebel against God in my own way.    Why did I come to Christ?  I came to Christ because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  No one comes to Christ unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit.  I did not come to Christ because I struggled against sin.   I didn't struggle with it.  It wasn't an issue until I came under conviction.

 

 

Your first error is in your understanding of the state he says he was in when asking the question in verse 24.  You claim he was saved, a Christian.   However the phrasing of the question indicates otherwise.  The question asked is "what can save me from this body of death"? Why would he ask what can save him if he is already saved as you claim he is?  The answer he gives also indicates the same.  He says "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord".  The answer he gives is how he can be saved from the body of death.  He would not be answering how he can be saved if he was already saved.  If he was already saved, his answer would have been "I am saved because of Jesus Christ".    

 

Your error is in not understanding first century, Greco-Roman rhetorical style.  The question answers itself.  Paul asks the question and then says, "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.  The question is rhetorical.  He is not asking the question 'cause he doesn't know the answer; it's quite the opposite.  The question is actually statement claiming deliverance and He is praising God for that deliverance.  Again, only a Christian would know that kind of deliverance.

 

 

The second error is your belief of what this chapter represents contradicts your belief that it is those who habitually sin (practice sin) who won't be saved. According to your belief about this chapter, the person Paul is describing is only continually sinning, doing nothing of what he knows to be right.  The life being described is one where sin is practiced for he is only doing what he hates.

 

I have two words for you:  "Reading comprehension."   Paul is not claiming that he sins habitually.   Paul is talking about the struggle to do what he knows he should do.  Paul is talking about two opposing regulatory principles that are continually at work in Him.  He is not claiming to be sinlessly perfect, but neither is he claiming that he just does whatever sin he feels like doing.   Paul is talking about a struggle between his redeemed, born again nature and the sinful nature.    We know this true because Paul compares his Christian faith and ministry to athletic training and competition such as in the latter part of I Corinthians 9 where Paul disciplines his flesh so that he is not disqualified for service.  Athletic training and competition are good metaphors for the Christian life because it requires discipline and training against resistance.  Paul never claims to be an habitual sinner, but he also never claims to have lived sinlessly since he was saved.

 

The third error in believing Paul is speaking of his life after Christ is that there is no mention of the Holy Spirit.  If he had His Spirit, he would not be doing what he hates for the one who is lead by the Spirit will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.  If this chapter is describing his life as a Christian then everything he claimed he was doing in the other books he wrote would be lies.  He says he took every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  He says he imitates Christ.  He says he once was disobedient.  Everyone of his claims about himself in the other books contradicts your belief.  Paul says we are to imitate him as he imitates Christ.  If he continued to sin as you claim he did then he is telling us to continue to sin as he did for that would be his example for us to imitate.

 

Well you need to keep in mind that Romans 7 is just part of a greater line of thought and the Holy Spirit IS mentioned in that line of thought in chapter 8.   Remember that the Bible was not written in chapter and verse and so chapters 7 and 8 are the same argument, the same line of thought.  Paul didn't change the subject in chapter 8.   In fact, Rom. 8:1-4 are logically a part of the of the argument of Romans 7.  They should actually be part of chapter seven from the vantage point of immediate context.  So yes, he does mention the Holy Spirit.   In fact, the security of the believer in chapter 8 IS the indwelling presence and power of the Holy Spirit according to Romans 8

 

 

You are so stuck on your belief that only Christ's death on the cross saves you that you are blind to everything else Christ taught.

 

No, Jesus never claimed that we are saved by works.  I am not blind to anything Jesus taught on salvation.    And yes, only Jesus saves us.  Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.  Anything else is a false gospel.

 

Paul says the blessing God promised to Abraham through his seed is the Holy Spirit, Gal 3:13-14 .

 

(13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--  (14)  in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

Why did God promise His Holy Spirit?  The Spirit is given to circumcise our hearts.

 

 

Actually, circumcision of the heart is something WE are commanded to do.  Circumcision of the heart is not a metaphor for salvation.   Circumcision of the heart is commanded to the redeemed community and it simply means that we are to cut off anything from our lives that serves as an impediment or obstacle to serving God.  

 

And by the way, the verses you cite from Galatians says that the blessing of Abraham (salvation) comes to the Gentiles by faith.  No mention of it coming to the Gentiles because they live perfectly sinless lives.  We receive the Holy Spirit through faith and it is He that empowers us.   We don't live sinlessly in order to be saved.    Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law.  Our good works didn't redeem us, our attempts at sinless perfection don't redeem us

 

Your example about speeding argues against what you are trying to say Shiloh.  Before the speed limit sign he did not know the Law.  But when he saw the speed limit sign he then knew the Law, he now knew speeding was wrong (sin).  Now he (his spirit) wishes to go the speed limit (wishes to follow the Law because the law is spiritual) because he knows it is right, but he is unable to do so because of the weakness of his flesh.  He is now doing that which he hates (he hates it because the Law revealed it to him to be sin) and is unable to do what his spirit wants to do

 

No, he is not doing what he hates.  The sinner doesn't hate sin just because the law says, "you are sinning."   He is doing what he wants and hating the law for exposing him.  He wants to speed. People naturally want to sin if given to their own devices.  Sin feels good (at least in the short term).   Sin is attractive to us and it is God's law that comes in and cramps our style and draws a line and exposes us and shows us what we don't want to see forces us to own up to what the law says is true about us.  Sin is in fact, ugly and the law exposes the true ugliness of sin.   The law brings us into awareness of our conscious conflict with the sin are flesh loves to commit and the God we have offended.

[Mr Nice]

No one is perfect yet in this life. If you think you can live a perfect sinless life from here on, you are deceived. Something to strive for, sure. But simply striving to be perfect, I think is missing the mark.

 

Wow.  That is very bold statement.  Striving to do what God has commanded us to do is missing the mark.  I guess it depends on your definition of striving.   Do you mean if we are being perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect we are missing the mark  OR do you mean we are trying to be perfect as He is but are not keeping His word?   If it is the latter I agree with you because if we are not perfect as He is perfect by not keeping his word then we have missed the mark.  Committing sin (not keeping His word), any sin, is missing the mark.  Believing we can be perfect as He is perfect, that He sent His Spirit to us so that we can live without fulfilling the desires of the flesh and produce the fruit of the Spirit, and then acting on that belief is not a sin.  It is fulfilling God's plan for all of us.  He wants us to be like Him and to demonstrate His love to the world.

[Willa]

Perhaps it depends on how much effort --sweat--we produce. If we allow His love to fill us and overflow to others as we walk spirit, that is Jesus working in us. It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.

But if we are constantly working at being good enought to go to heaven, we have missed the boat. God made us legally good enough at the cross, and now we are just fulfilling the works prepared for us and walking in love in them. No effort is really required other than to die to self so that Christ may be seen in us. At one time I thought Christ died to give me a second chance to try to be good enough to go to heaven. That is purely self righteousness. With some understanding of Scripture I realized that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. So if I am working at it and struggling with it, I am doing it wrong.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

No one is perfect yet in this life. If you think you can live a perfect sinless life from here on, you are deceived. Something to strive for, sure. But simply striving to be perfect, I think is missing the mark.

 

Wow.  That is very bold statement.  Striving to do what God has commanded us to do is missing the mark. Do you mean if we are being perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect we are missing the mark  OR do you mean we are trying to be perfect as He is but are not keeping His word?

No, striving to be saved through your own efforts is missing the mark.  It is sin.  That fact that you are trying to be saved by your own efforts is a sin and your striving places you in a constant state of sin.

 

When the Bible commands us to be "perfect" as our Father in heaven is perfect,"   it is not a commandment to flawlessness or sinlessness.   You lack a great deal of understanding of biblical languages.  The Greek word that is used for perfect doesn't mean flawless or sinless.  It comes from the word "telos"  in Greek which is the word "goal."   The English is far less precise than the Greek of the New Testament.   The Greek word that is used here refers to Jesus telling us to use God as our example in behavior.

 

You grab a verse like Matt. 5:48 and you fail to establish the context.   Jesus, in the last part of Matthew chapter five, was referring to loving your enemies and He used God the Father as an example of loving those who hate Him.    God sends rain and sunshine on the just and the unjust.  In a first century agrarian culture where the main source of income and sustenance were crops, sun and rain were vital.   God blesses both his friends and his enemies with both.    Jesus holds God's mercy toward his enemies as an example to follow and then He says, "so be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.   He is talking about imitation of God in the area of loving and blessing one's enemies.   Jesus' line of thought had nothing to do with being perfectly sinless in everything you do, but to pattern oneself after God with reference to interactions with those who hate us.

 

Your poor hermeneutics and sloppy theology has led you believe in a works-based system of righteousness that has you trusting, not in Jesus, but in yourself and usurping Jesus' role as your Savior.   Sorry, but that is not New Testament Christianity.  It is a similar heresy that the Galatians fell into and they had fallen from grace because they were trying to be saved by works as well.

[enoob57]

Mr Nice,
Your understanding is skewed and does not fit with Scripture!
Just so you know that your off base with Paul and what he taught in His letters
1 Cor 5:1-7
5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication
as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed
might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in
spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so
done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together,
and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto
Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the
Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth
the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye
are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
KJV
It is clear that what you are saying is contrary to what is being said here and what Shiloh is
saying line up perfectly with this council of Paul's s(S)pirit in the matter of works necessary
for salvation! Love, Steven

[Joshua-777]

 

So in the first 13 verses, Paul is dealing with us being dead to the Law.    In verses 14-25   Paul is talking about us being dead to sin/the flesh.    Those who are not born again are not dead to to sin or the flesh, so Paul CANNOT be talking about his per-conversion experience in this latter half.   You are mistaken that Paul is still talking about his life before he was saved.  That is simply not the case and that is proven by the fact that Paul switches from referring to himself in the past tense and begins speaking in the present tense.  Present tense, means "right now."

 

Here's the issue though, in Romans 7, Paul was talking about being dominated by the law of sin. Romans 8, he's talking about being free from it.

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Are we captive or free? The Romans 7 man is captive by law of sin sin, unable to follow God because of sin in him. The Romans 8 man can put to death the deeds of the flesh, Live according to the Spirit and not the flesh, and is free from the law of sin.

Paul is still talking about being under the law, in the flesh, and cannot figure out how to do good. First, we are not under the law and we are no longer sold under sin.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin

Here, Paul is talking about the law he thought to bring life only brought death, (Torah). We are no longer under the law.

Romans 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

It looks more clear that Paul is going into explaining what he just said.

Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sinful passions aroused by the law (Romans 7:7-24) Newness of the Spirit (Romans 8:1-17).  Thus Paul is talking about sinful passions aroused by the law, and not the average believers experience and his own struggle in the Christian life.

Now, we were in a discussion about how this couldn't be a Jew under the law because they don't believe in sin.

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

 

 

First, they have God's law to define what sin is as Paul said. Second, yes they did see themselves with sin.

Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!”

Or the woman caught in adultery?

John 8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

So in the first 13 verses, Paul is dealing with us being dead to the Law.    In verses 14-25   Paul is talking about us being dead to sin/the flesh.    Those who are not born again are not dead to to sin or the flesh, so Paul CANNOT be talking about his per-conversion experience in this latter half.   You are mistaken that Paul is still talking about his life before he was saved.  That is simply not the case and that is proven by the fact that Paul switches from referring to himself in the past tense and begins speaking in the present tense.  Present tense, means "right now."

 

Here's the issue though, in Romans 7, Paul was talking about being dominated by the law of sin. Romans 8, he's talking about being free from it.

 

 

That is a little over-simplified.   Romans 7 addresses God's Law in the first part.  He addresses the Law of Moses and it's righteous condemnation of sin.    The Law of sin doesn't get dealt with until Paul begins addressing the flesh/sin nature in vv. 14-25  In that section, Paul uses the law of sin, which is an inner regulatory principle at work in our flesh that is in conflict against our desire to serve God.

 

It's like this:   A Christian is walking down the street and he finds a wallet with the owner's ID and $250 in cash.  He knows he should return the wallet to the owner immediately. He finds the address in the ID information in the wallet, but while he is driving to the owner's house to return the wallet, his mind starts thinking about what he could do with that $250.   He starts thinking of some fun things he could do and no one would ever know.  He is still driving and still heading over to the owner's house but man, oh man, that $250 would really come in handy right now.   He is wrestling with the desire to just turn around and go home and dispose of the wallet where no one could find it, but take the money and no one would be the wiser.  It would be easy.  No one would ever find out.  

 

His flesh wants to steal the money.  But He is being driven by the Holy Spirit to return the wallet and all of the cash to the owner.  That is a common type of  experience that almost every believer has gone through (if they're honest).  It may not be a money scenario, but Christian has had those moments of inner turmoil.  That's what Paul is talking about in Romans 7:14-25

 

Are we captive or free? The Romans 7 man is captive by law of sin sin, unable to follow God because of sin in him. The Romans 8 man can put to death the deeds of the flesh, Live according to the Spirit and not the flesh, and is free from the law of sin.

 

Respectfully Joshua,  you need to come to grips with the fact that Romans 7 isn't a monolith.  There is more than one issue Paul is addressing in that chapter and it is part of a greater line of thought and you can't simply gloss over Romans 7 the way you are doing and come away with an accurate picture of what Paul is saying. 

 

 

Now, we were in a discussion about how this couldn't be a Jew under the law because they don't believe in sin.

Quote

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

 

 

First, they have God's law to define what sin is as Paul said. Second, yes they did see themselves with sin.

Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!”

Or the woman caught in adultery?

John 8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

 

I did not say that they didn't believe in sin, or that they did not have sin.   I said that Jewish theology doesn't carry the notion of being a "sinner" the way it is taught to us in Christianity. 

 

My point was that they don't look at sin the same way we do.   And they define what sin is, differently than you and I.   They don't see themselves as fallen sinners in need of a personal savior.   They don't believe that Adam's fall in the Garden corrupted humanity.   For that reason, they don't see themselves as individuals needing salvation.  In Jewish theology "salvation" is corporate, not personal.

 

The Jewish people, even in the New Testament, saw themselves as a redeemed community.  They were already God's people by virtue of their Jewish birth.  Paul addresses this presumption in Romans 2.  

 

One thing to keep in mind about Jewish theology, Joshua, is that it is not based solely on the Bible.   Jewish people base theology on things like tradition and the writings of their sages in the Talmud/Mishah and the Midrash and other works pertaining to Jewish law and observance.   By the time Jesus came on the scene the Oral Law (Talmud/Mishnah)  was already 500 years old.

[Joshua-777]

 

I did not say that they didn't believe in sin, or that they did not have sin.   I said that Jewish theology doesn't carry the notion of being a "sinner" the way it is taught to us in Christianity. 

 

First, they have God's law to define what sin is as Paul said. Second, yes they did see themselves with sin.

Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!”

Or the woman caught in adultery?

John 8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

 

 

So, Paul was in a constant state of willing to do, and not practicing, and falling in what he hates, sin, and doing it? That is the normal Christian life? The fact alone he is referring to the Law, which we are no longer under if we are lead by the Spirit shows that this isn't a Spirit filled believer but trying to do the law in the flesh. The Spirit gives the will do do good and empowers us to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Romans 8 is referring to our empowerment, the escape from the law of sin, the Holy Spirit empowering us contrasting the flesh and the Spirit.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

What the Law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh,  God did.

 

That is a little over-simplified.   Romans 7 addresses God's Law in the first part.  He addresses the Law of Moses and it's righteous condemnation of sin.    The Law of sin doesn't get dealt with until Paul begins addressing the flesh/sin nature in vv. 14-25  In that section, Paul uses the law of sin, which is an inner regulatory principle at work in our flesh that is in conflict against our desire to serve God.

It's like this:   A Christian is walking down the street and he finds a wallet with the owner's ID and $250 in cash.  He knows he should return the wallet to the owner immediately. He finds the address in the ID information in the wallet, but while he is driving to the owner's house to return the wallet, his mind starts thinking about what he could do with that $250.   He starts thinking of some fun things he could do and no one would ever know.  He is still driving and still heading over to the owner's house but man, oh man, that $250 would really come in handy right now.   He is wrestling with the desire to just turn around and go home and dispose of the wallet where no one could find it, but take the money and no one would be the wiser.  It would be easy.  No one would ever find out.

His flesh wants to steal the money.  But He is being driven by the Holy Spirit to return the wallet and all of the cash to the owner.  That is a common type of  experience that almost every believer has gone through (if they're honest).  It may not be a money scenario, but Christian has had those moments of inner turmoil.  That's what Paul is talking about in Romans 7:14-25

Respectfully Joshua,  you need to come to grips with the fact that Romans 7 isn't a monolith.  There is more than one issue Paul is addressing in that chapter and it is part of a greater line of thought and you can't simply gloss over Romans 7 the way you are doing and come away with an accurate picture of what Paul is saying.

 

I believe it really is simple, and the conclusion I came to is not one of glossing over, but of years of studying and praying over that passage. I've held both sides of the argument, and for about 6 years of my Christian life, I would have fought the Romans 7 man is the normal Christian experience because that is what I was experiencing. The more I search the scripture and see what it says,the more I experience the joy and freedom of it. To be brutally honest, as I live in the Spirit, that wallet scenario wouldn't have happened. I've been in situations like that, and living in the place of intimacy with Him, my desire is for Him so those thoughts didn't cross my mind. If they do, I'm neglecting to live in the Spirit. As I live to seek His face, I don't struggle with my flesh anymore. When I neglect intimacy with Him, I do. The more I fall in love with Him, the more my heart is for Him. Jesus makes it really easy. His Presence empowers us. We can desire the things of the Lord, we really don't have to be in a constant struggle of flesh and Spirit. He won, we can live in Him with a clear conscience. We can really have a pure heart in following the Lord.

the issue with the Romans 7 man being the Christian experience is it gives excuse for sin, which I have heard from countless people who interpret Romans 7 as the believers struggle, as I did. They use it to justify sin in their lives.  The bible gives no excuse to live in sin.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

I did not say that they didn't believe in sin, or that they did not have sin.   I said that Jewish theology doesn't carry the notion of being a "sinner" the way it is taught to us in Christianity. 

 

First, they have God's law to define what sin is as Paul said. Second, yes they did see themselves with sin.

Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!”

Or the woman caught in adultery?

John 8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

 

 

So, Paul was in a constant state of willing to do, and not practicing, and falling in what he hates, sin, and doing it? That is the normal Christian life?

 

No, that's not it at all.  Again, as I have had to explain to others, Paul is using common rhetorical devices to make his point.   Paul is not saying that he constantly fails in his struggle against sin.   He is using what writers in the first century Greco-Roman culture and even in our culture today use:  Empathy.   Paul is an aged man by the time he writes Romans.  He is a man who understands his audiences, he knows the needs of the people he is addressing. He knows their struggles and he addresses them as one of them.   He says in another place that he becomes all things to all people.  He puts himself in the shoes of his reader and tailors his message to be something relevant to that audience.

 

You appear to be interpreting Romans 7 in the light of your experience and you are letting your theology drive your interpretation.   You see yourself in particular light and you have defined your experience as "normal Christian living."  

 

Well, not everyone is where you're at, or where I'm at.  There are a lot of Christians out there who struggle with exactly what Paul is dealing with in Rom. 7: 14-25.   There are a lot of Christians who struggle in their walk with God.  They aren't walking two feet above the ground in perfect holiness like you claim to be.   They came to Christ with a lot of baggage and a lot of problems and frankly, things aren't perfect for them.   Life was bad before they came to Christ, and since they became believers, it has basically gotten worse.  They are not walking in this ideal place that you depict.  They have a lot of stuff in their lives and the Lord is still working on them and yes, they stumble occasionally;  they lose a few battles, but their Christian life is no less "normal" than yours, whether you can make room for that or not.   One thing that I have learned is that Jesus doesn't always fix things; He doesn't always make the problems and issues go away.  He doesn't always relieve us of the suffering; rather, He gives us Himself and He suffers with us.  He walks us through the problems and He gives meaning and purpose to the pain.  He doesn't calm the storm, but often gives us peace in the midst of the storm.   He works with us as flawed, fallen human beings.  

 

A lot of Christians are slugging it out in the trenches dealing with problematic family members that try their patience, that bring out the worst in them.  They struggle with not being fearful because they can't pay the rent and are about to be evicted and don't know where to go.  They are serving God, staying in prayer and Bible study and they are plugged into a local church, but real life is taking its toll and the Lord is all they have to hold on to, and they do it imperfectly and sometimes they win and sometimes they don't.  That's where people were at in Paul's day and it where people are at today.

 

One thing I appreciate about the Bible, is that it doesn't whitewash over the flaws of the main heroes and heroines in the biblical accounts.  Abraham sinned a lot and he had to grow and learn faith just like we do.  Paul had an issue with unforgiveness, Peter had a temper, a big mouth and also struggled with hypocrisy.   Even Jesus' own mother thought he was out of His mind at one point.   John and James were prideful and wanted to sit on Jesus' right and left hand and at one point wanted to call down fire from heaven.   The disciples who saw Jesus' miracles and were there for virtually every major supernatural event, not only deserted him when the chips were down, but all of those experiences all of those miracles didn't sustain them for the three days following Jesus' crucifixion.   

 

The writers of the Bible had flaws David, Solomon, Paul, Peter, James, Moses, etc.  They all failed at one point or another.  They didn't live in some other-worldly spiritual dimension.  They had feet of clay and they personality flaws and moments of weakness, depression, discouragement, etc.  They failed and in some cases failed royally.  But they were no less used by God than you or I.  And God still used them in mighty ways in spite of their flaws and weaknesses.  He didn't use them because they were living so free of sin that they could claim that sin never touched their lives.  He used them IN their flawed state.  The Spirit moved through imperfect vessels to do His work.  

 

One thing I heard preacher say that has always stuck with me is that no matter how difficult the target, God can always strike straight with a crooked stick.

 

 

 To be brutally honest, as I live in the Spirit, that wallet scenario wouldn't have happened. I've been in situations like that, and living in the place of intimacy with Him, my desire is for Him so those thoughts didn't cross my mind. If they do, I'm neglecting to live in the Spirit. As I live to seek His face, I don't struggle with my flesh anymore. When I neglect intimacy with Him, I do. The more I fall in love with Him, the more my heart is for Him. Jesus makes it really easy. His Presence empowers us. We can desire the things of the Lord, we really don't have to be in a constant struggle of flesh and Spirit. He won, we can live in Him with a clear conscience. We can really have a pure heart in following the Lord.

 

Yes, but there are times, and none of us can claim that we walk in the Spirit 100% of the time.   We might like to think we do, but we don't.  All of us have drawbacks and flaws in our personalities that come out from time to time.   All of us have times when our flesh rises up and we have to deal with that.  You might not deal with the wallet scenario, but like I said, you have flesh nature and it will and does rise up from time to time.   If you claim otherwise, you're not being completely honest with yourself.

 

Struggling with the flesh doesn't mean we don't have a pure heart.  If you didn't have a pure heart, there wouldn't be a struggle in the first place.  We all follow God with pure hearts, but we also have a sinful nature that has to be kept in check.   I realize that it really cramps our style to admit that we are still human and we still have failings, but it's true.   You have them, I have them.   It's part of being a Christian.

 

the issue with the Romans 7 man being the Christian experience is it gives excuse for sin, which I have heard from countless people who interpret Romans 7 as the believers struggle, as I did. They use it to justify sin in their lives.  The bible gives no excuse to live in sin.

 

There is no excuse for living in sin.  But struggling with sin isn't the same as living in it.    Admitting that Romans 7:14-25 is part of the Christian experience doesn't amount to justifying sin in any shape or form.   If anything, what we  see is Paul empathizing because he has been there.   It is Paul, the great theologian of the Church allowing us into his life.  It is Paul being vulnerable and honest.   He can empathize with the Jews because He used to live where they live.  He can empathize with the Gentiles because he was raised in a predominately Gentile culture as a Roman citizen and so he sees the issue from the perspective of a person who lives in the legalism of Judaism and He realizes that there are recent converts from Greco-Roman paganism who still have some baggage from back in the day and they are still sorting things out in how they are to relate to the culture out of which they were saved and what parts of their old life are sinful and which parts aren't. 

 

Romans 7 deals with both and Paul addresses both.