Christian perfection

[Joshua-777]

 Romans 7 is not about Paul's life and struggle with sin prior to conversion.  Paul speaks to the inner struggle of the flesh against the Spirit which he highlights in Galatians.   Rom. 7:14-25 is Paul's admittance.   Paul makes it clear, particularly in verses. 18-25 that sin dwells in his flesh (sinful nature).  The sinful nature, our propensity to sin has not been eradicated.  We are still sinful people.

 

The New Testament never anticipates that Christians will walk in sinless perfection while living in this world, prior to receiving our glorified bodies.   The sin nature will not be eradicated until either a person dies and goes home to be with Jesus or the Lord returns and receive our glorified bodies at that time.

 

We are made objectively holy the moment we are born again.  I am objectively perfected by the blood of Jesus and the part of me that is born of God never sins.  However, my flesh, my sinful nature was not removed at salvation and there is still a personal struggle taking place.

 

I may not be living aberrant sinfulness, but to presume that I never sin  is just arrogant.  We sin in commission or omission.  None of could ever possibly live to the same righteous standard that Jesus lived.    The Bible tells us that we are set apart and made holy in Christ.  Every demand that God makes of us, His grace provides.   We are commanded to live holy lives, upright and blameless.  We are to live above sin and to conduct ourselves in a manner that reflects  the holiness of God that He has wrought in us.   We are not commanded to manufacture the holiness of God through our own efforts.

 

I am not made holy before God by virtue of anything I do.  I am made holy through grace of God and finished work of Jesus on the cross.   The one thing we really need to get a hold of is that God everything we need from God is provided by Jesus.   There is nothing we could possibly achieve through our own efforts that the grace of God through Jesus hasn't already provided.   Our works are meant to be a display of holiness, not the means of achieving it. 

I agree, we can never achieve anything through our own efforts and we must rely fully on the grace of God. I believe that is the core of Romans 7. When Paul was under the law, he was bound because in Himself he had no way to overcome, the sinfulness of man took advantage of the law. But Romans 7 starts out by us dying to the law so we can be married to another Christ. Romans 6 says we died over and over again and are no longer slaves to sin. Romans 7 shows someone who is a slave to sin. Romans 8 shows that we have been given His Spirit to empower us to walk righteously. It's His grace that we can walk righteous and blameless. It's His Spirit empowering us.

 

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

The Spirit is what empowers us to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

 

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

The war you mentioned in Galatians shows its either one or the other, not both. The flesh does war against the Spirit, but the Spirit is what puts to death the deeds of the flesh. It's only by the Holy Spirit we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you walk in the Spirit you won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

 

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

There is no sin too big for God, there is no sin we are bound to. We have been set free and His power helps us walk free. If that's not true, what sin is so big that God lacks the power to help you overcome it?

I think that one of the differences of interpretation comes from our understanding of what the flesh is. I do not believe the flesh is my body, or some nature in my body that I’m stuck with, but the carnal way of thinking. We have a lifetime where our thoughts, memories, habits, etc are programed after the devil. That is why Jesus came on the scene saying repent “Change your mind” The Kingdom of heaven is at hand. Meaning renew your mind to the truth.

 

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

We need our minds renewed to the reality of what He’s done. Transformation comes from renewing our mind.

 

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

We need to put off the old man and live as the New Man, created in righteousness and holiness.

 

Ephesians 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

When we came to Christ, we become a new creation. Our old man is dead, crucified with Christ and we are new created in true righteousness and holiness. The issue is we still think like the old, now we are in the process of renewing our minds to the reality of who God says we are. If I believe I'm just a wretched sinner, I'm going to sin out of faith. But, if I believe that I am who God says I am, righteous, holy, blameless my actions are going to follow.

I also believe the goal of the Holy Spirit is not to make us just not sin any more, but that we would look just like Christ.

Ephesians 4:2 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Holy Spirit is transforming us into the image of Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree, we can never achieve anything through our own efforts and we must rely fully on the grace of God. I believe that is the core of Romans 7. When Paul was under the law, he was bound because in Himself he had no way to overcome, the sinfulness of man took advantage of the law. But Romans 7 starts out by us dying to the law so we can be married to another Christ. Romans 6 says we died over and over again and are no longer slaves to sin. Romans 7 shows someone who is a slave to sin. Romans 8 shows that we have been given His Spirit to empower us to walk righteously. It's His grace that we can walk righteous and blameless. It's His Spirit empowering us.

 

Rom. 7:14-25 pertains to Paul's struggle with sin.  Paul is not talking about an unbeliever.  Unbelievers don't struggle with sin.  There is a difference between struggling with sin and being a slave to it.  Paul is explaining the struggle had as a believer in vv. 22-23

 

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.(Rom 7:22-23)

 

The grammatical structure in the Greek shows us that this is not a pre-Christian struggle that Paul is depicting.  Paul is speaking in the present tense of his experience as a believer. 

 

Paul struggled for some time with unforgiveness toward John Mark after John Mark abandoned him on a missionary journey.  His unforgiveness was so bad that it caused him to sever his relationship with Barnabas and the Bible never tells us if Barnabas and Paul ever forgave each other over that.   So to say that Paul never struggled with sin after he got born again, is simply false.

 

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

The Spirit is what empowers us to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

 

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

 

That is not a one time thing.  The flesh rise up again and again and we continually war against it.

 

The war you mentioned in Galatians shows its either one or the other, not both. The flesh does war against the Spirit, but the Spirit is what puts to death the deeds of the flesh. It's only by the Holy Spirit we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you walk in the Spirit you won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

 

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

There is no sin too big for God, there is no sin we are bound to. We have been set free and His power helps us walk free. If that's not true, what sin is so big that God lacks the power to help you overcome it?

 

The mistake you and others are making is the assumption that if a person commits a single sin it means that they have not overcome sin.  Anyone who thinks that they NEVER sin as a believer is a fraud.

 

I think that one of the differences of interpretation comes from our understanding of what the flesh is. I do not believe the flesh is my body, or some nature in my body that I’m stuck with, but the carnal way of thinking. We have a lifetime where our thoughts, memories, habits, etc are programed after the devil. That is why Jesus came on the scene saying repent “Change your mind” The Kingdom of heaven is at hand. Meaning renew your mind to the truth.

 

The Bible defines the flesh as our sinful nature.  When you got born again, your sin nature was not eradicated.  You still have it.  That is why we still struggle with it.

 

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

We need our minds renewed to the reality of what He’s done. Transformation comes from renewing our mind.

 

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

We need to put off the old man and live as the New Man, created in righteousness and holiness.

Ephesians 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

And those commandments would be superfluous if it were the case that the Bible anticipates that believer never commit a single sin.    All of the commandments about forgiveness and forbearing others  in the church, our fellow believers, make no sense if the Bible anticipates that we will never sin.   Paul dealt with sin constantly in the Church. 

 

When we came to Christ, we become a new creation. Our old man is dead, crucified with Christ and we are new created in true righteousness and holiness. The issue is we still think like the old, now we are in the process of renewing our minds to the reality of who God says we are. If I believe I'm just a wretched sinner, I'm going to sin out of faith. But, if I believe that I am who God says I am, righteous, holy, blameless my actions are going to follow.

 

I know it is hard for some Christians to accept, but we are still sinner.  We are redeemed sinners, but we are still sinners.   We are objectively holy and blamess and righteous, but what you need to understand is that those things are "imputed" to us.  They are not inherently a part of us and won't be until we receive our glorified bodies.

 

 

I also believe the goal of the Holy Spirit is not to make us just not sin any more, but that we would look just like Christ.

Ephesians 4:2 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Holy Spirit is transforming us into the image of Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

That is a process over time.  We are daily being changed.  The notion that we are living perfectly sinless is not part of that; in fact, it would speak to the exact opposite. 

[Mr Nice]

Why would the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write to the churches about their need to forgive one another and forbear with one another if the expectation is that Christians will never sin a again?    Why the commandment to confess our faults to each other if the expectation is that we are not to have any faults after we get saved?

We are commanded to forgive others as Christ has forgiven us or we will not enter heaven, our sins will not be forgiven. Matthew 6:14-15. Please read Col 3:1-17 and Ephesians 4:17-32. They sum everything up nicely that I have been saying.  It says who we are to be having been taught the truth.

It says we are to not be sinning, be angry and do not sin, but it goes beyond just saying don't do these things. He tells us to replace them. Why? So that we will fill up our house with good so there is no room to for sin to reside. Chrit spoke of this in the parable about the man who was demon posessed. The demon (sin) was removed from him but he failed to fill his house with that which is good. Because of this not only did the demon (sin) come back but it brought other demons (sins) with him. In the end he was worse off than at the first. Likewise, if the eye is full of darkness then the whole body is full of darkness, Matthew 6:22-24

There are a lot of teachings on forgiveness, mercy, patience, forbearance, and so on between believers that should not be part of the New Testament if the Lord anticipates that we will never sin after getting saved.   Look at the virtues listed in Col. 3:12-14.  Those virtues are what we are commanded to put in order to forbear and forgive  each other in community.   The need to forbear and forgive implies that we are not perfect. 

It helps if you read everything prior to these verses. Paul says of those whom is writing were not walking in sin like the sons of disodedience. enjoy he says they are to put on the new self.

 

Here's something else...   It is the claim of certain people that they no longer commit sin, that they live in complete sinless perfection...    It be an interesting experiment to test that claim by interviewing people with whom they are in relationship with to find out if this is the case.   Interview co-workers, neighbors, relatives, and others who know them to see if people they know feel that this person claiming to be perfectly sinless really measures up to that standard.

 

So you want to justify sin in your life by trying to disprove the claims of those who say they are no longer sinning. That wouldn't be a very good argument to take before God, that is to say "nobody else is walkingoing without sin". That would be like a child telling his parents that they disobeyed because their siblings weren't obeying what they were commanded by their parents.

Besides that, Paul's says of himself and those with him who are perfect are to hold to that standard. He also says of those who don't have this attitude that God will reveal it to them. Then he says: Philippians 3:17-18 NASB "Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ".

It's easy to get on a message board and claim to be sinlessly perfect. Easy to get on here and hide one's faults, and draw backs/flaws in their personality...  

So because you are unable to cease from sin with all the power that God has granted us, you think that those who claim they have are liars. That is a pretty rash statement.

 

I can imagine if we are to compare notes with their friends and family, we might get a more accurate picture of what they're really like.

Who are you looking to for your example of living a holy Christ-like life? Are you looking to Christ and the examples spoken of in the Bible or are you looking to those around you who claim it is impossible to walk as Christ walked. God said we can while man is saying they cannot. Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 that he who rejects that we must be sanctified here and now is not rejecting man but God who gave us His Holy Spirit.

[Guest shiloh357]

So because you are unable to cease from sin with all the power that God has granted us, you think that those who claim they have are liars. That is a pretty rash statement.

 

What I am saying is that you think you live perfectly and sinlessly.  You have a pretty exalted opinion of your life and your alleged sinlessness.    It would be interesting to see how those around you view those claims.   It would be interesting to see if those whom you interact with view you through same exalted lens or if they are privy to faults and flaws and sins that you perhaps don't see in yourself. 

 

So you want to justify sin in your life by trying to disprove the claims of those who say they are no longer sinning.

 

I  don't justify sin at all.  You are justifying self-righteousness and glorifying yourself through your claim to be sinless.   And what's worse is that you claim that as the basis for your salvation.  You're saved, in your opinion because you are perfect.   And in that very claim,  you prove that you are, ironically, living in a perpetual state of sin.  The sin of self-righteousness.

[OneLight]

Honestly I cannot claim to be without sin.  Do I think I am saved? No. Am I fine with that? No.

Than you do not believe in what we are told in Ephesians 1:13-14?

 

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We can, and should, trust scripture. If you have sought salvation through Christ, you can know you are saved as you continue in Him.

[OneLight]

I certainly don't sin daily as so many claim we do.  I do continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling because the wrath of God will be poured out on the sons of disobedience and that is what we are if we continue to sin.

Not all sin is intentional. I have caught myself sinning and have repented. I did not intentionally sin, but my flesh sinned when I was not paying attention.

[Willa]

Fez and One Light are on staff on Worthy, and deserved to be listened to. Fresno Joe is also on staff as a watchman who makes sure there are no personal attacks, and his verses always contain much wisdom. I highly respect these and others who are on staff.

Only people who are on staff are allowed to teach on these forums.

Mr. Nice, I accept your apology and choose to believe that the remark you made about my beliefs was not a passive agressive attempt to disparage me or cast doubt on my life or my beliefs. To imply by it that I believe I cannot be (or have not been, in this case) cleansed of wickedness or am not being made a vessel of honor is very close to slander. God cleanses our hearts of wickedness when we are saved so that we no longer take pleasure in it. God told me after some severe chastening in the early 70s that He was changing me into a vessel of honor. It was a further cleansing of the heart that He put me through and it was certainly nothing of my own effort. He cleansed me of the spiritual pride that comes from thinking of myself more highly than I ought. He continues to correct my attitudes today, which means He is my Father. His rod and His staff, they comfort me.

But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Heb. 12:8 NKJV

God chastens and corrects those He loves.

[OneLight]

Where in the Bible does it say that we cannot walk 100% in the Holy Spirit?  It doesn't, but it does say we can.  I can do all things through Him etc., I can stop all the flaming arrows of satan with the shield of faith, etc.  I would have to disagree with you about no one as a Christian walked perfectly for the Bible speaks of those who did.  They are those who like Paul were formerly disobedient, were darkness, etc. and turned to God, walking in the Spirit.  Maybe He does work in us little by little because He is patient hoping that we will repent and turn from our wicked ways.

Paul, when speak about living in Christ and not in the flesh, spoke the following in Romans 6:12-14

 

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

If you notice, Paul never states we will never sin, but we should no longer partake in sin, which leaves us accountable for our fleshly desires. While we are in this flesh, we will sin, but through Christ, we have a way out. A perfect person will never sin, but we are not perfect. In fact, we read what we should do in Romans 12:1-2

 

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

 

We also can see in Philippians 2:12-16

 

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

Notice that scripture tells us "that you may". There is always sin to deal with while in the flesh. Only Jesus is perfect. Saying that we, in the flesh, can be perfect makes us equal with Christ. God makes a way for us to be like Christ, but He never tells us we will be God.

[OneLight]

I don't believe being commanded to be perfect, holy, blameless, to prove ourselves innocent and blameless are given as goals.  They are most certainly commands.  What we have been promised is that there is no sin which we can not bear and that he will always provide the way out.  We have been told that if we practice the fruit of the Spirit then we will never stumble.

You say you still sin, yet you still say it is possible not to sin in this life. You are a contradiction to your own teachings/theology. I don't understand why you continue to tell people they can live a life of sin when scripture constantly tells us to beware of what we do so we don't sin.

The only scripture that tells me that we will never stumble is not about the fruit of the Spirit, but found in 2 Peter 1:5-22

 

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The things Peter is speaking about are found in verses 5-10a. The Fruit of the Spirit is found in Galatians 5:22-26

 

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

This passage tells us there is no law against any of His fruit, not that if we do them we will not stumble, as you claim. It is best to not add to scripture, but to take it at it's rightful context.

[OneLight]

Where in scripture does it say we will sin as a Christian?  please don't say 1 John 1 because a Christian will never claim he has no sin or has not sinned for he already made this confession when he came to Christ.  So many claim we will continue to sin but cannot support it with scripture.  

 

Do you know what Paul's thorn in the flesh was?  No one does because it did not say.  However the context would point to something other than sin that was hard for him to deal with. If you believe it to be sin then you must claim that God sent a demon to Paul to cause Him to Sin.  What both Christ and Paul said in this passage points to leaning on God and His power to help us when we are weak, but being weak does not mean we will sin.  God's grace is sufficient where His grace includes all He has promised us in Christ.

Scripture tells us that our flesh is the reason we sin, not demons. Not sure where you get that from. Sin is from the flesh.

As for where is scripture does it say we sin as scripture, here is one of many places.

James 5:19-20

 

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.