Christian perfection

[Augustine17]

@Wingnut

 

All have sinned and not all are sinners. There is a difference. 

 

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. - John 8:34

 

No man has any advantage, but all have been subject to mercy. It is by God's mercy we aren't punished the moment we commit a death worthy sin with death. It is by his mercy that he lets rain go on the wicked and the righteous. The Apostles, the Gentiles to whom the Gospel was preached and the Prophets, with Jesus being the exception, all sinned before following The Way. Because of that nobody can have any advantage over another, all are subject to mercy. Jesus was without sin, and yet he was even still more merciful than many. The next part addresses that the way of faith was unknown but God made it know. The way of legalism is not the way to heaven (which is to try to justify ones self by works and outward things rather than being cleansed by Christ inwardly), this is what Paul explained. The part 'and all are justified freely by grace through his redemption that came by Jesus Christ' part refers to being freed. Google the definition of redemption and it shows this: 'the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil'. The other is this 'the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment, or clearing a debt.' The sacrifice of the law was paid for. No need to shed blood until judgement. Christ paid the debt of the second definition. Jesus said whoever practices sin is a slave to sin, and if redemption is to save from sin error or evil, then why would the redeemed one still be enslaved?

Edited January 31, 2015 by Augustine17

[wingnut-]

@Wingnut

 

All have sinned and not all are sinners. There is a difference. 

 

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. - John 8:34

 

No man has any advantage, but all have been subject to mercy. It is by God's mercy we aren't punished the moment we commit a death worthy sin with death. It is by his mercy that he lets rain go on the wicked and the righteous. The Apostles, the Gentiles to whom the Gospel was preached and the Prophets, with Jesus being the exception, all sinned before following The Way. Because of that nobody can have any advantage over another, all are subject to mercy. Jesus was without sin, and yet he was even still more merciful than many. The next part addresses that the way of faith was unknown but God made it know. The way of legalism is not the way to heaven (which is to try to justify ones self by works and outward things rather than being cleansed by Christ inwardly), this is what Paul explained. The part 'and all are justified freely by grace through his redemption that came by Jesus Christ' part refers to being freed. Google the definition of redemption and it shows this: 'the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil'. The other is this 'the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment, or clearing a debt.' The sacrifice of the law was paid for. No need to shed blood until judgement. Christ paid the debt of the second definition. Jesus said whoever practices sin is a slave to sin, and if redemption is to save from sin error or evil, then why would they still be enslaved?

 

 

Google lol.  No thanks, but maybe you should google the definition of grace.

[Augustine17]

The verb for grace is a synonym for favor which is this: an act of kindness beyond what is due or usual. Now is there anything else? It is without a doubt that a sinner deserves to die and that Christ freeing a sinner is beyond what is due to them.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Augustine17

[Kan]

I was worried that this topic would cause division, because we cannot help linking our opinions with our ego, and then it becomes a battle of the egos instead of finding truth together.

 

The last part of Christian perfection with the disciples did not occur until after the departure of Jesus from earth.

But before that, Jesus earnestly prayed that there would be unity between Him and them, and they with each other.

 

We cannot be perfected without there being one purpose of heart in our dealings with each other.

 

The truth is that we cannot be perfect unless we have a better awareness of our weaknesses and personal traits/tendencies.

And after that, we can be more honest with God in prayer, and recognize that we are quite undone when it comes to goodness.

 

We cannot afford to lower God's standards of righteousness as demonstrated in Jesus' life, neither underestimate what He can do for us, because we cannot.

However, cooperation with that work of God begins by acknowledging His standards and our strong tendencies to measure our own righteousness of which we have none.

 

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." That suggests that there is no room for sin in faith, and it also tells us that "without faith it is impossible to please Him." 

 

So we believe in the perfection which only God knows and gives to us through faith in His Son. Apart from that we are in the dark, comparing ourselves among ourselves.

[Augustine17]

I was worried that this topic would cause division, because we cannot help linking our opinions with our ego, and then it becomes a battle of the egos instead of finding truth together.

 

The last part of Christian perfection with the disciples did not occur until after the departure of Jesus from earth.

But before that, Jesus earnestly prayed that there would be unity between Him and them, and they with each other.

 

We cannot be perfected without there being one purpose of heart in our dealings with each other.

 

The truth is that we cannot be perfect unless we have a better awareness of our weaknesses and personal traits/tendencies.

And after that, we can be more honest with God in prayer, and recognize that we are quite undone when it comes to goodness.

 

We cannot afford to lower God's standards of righteousness as demonstrated in Jesus' life, neither underestimate what He can do for us, because we cannot.

However, cooperation with that work of God begins by acknowledging His standards and our strong tendencies to measure our own righteousness of which we have none.

 

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." That suggests that there is no room for sin in faith, and it also tells us that "without faith it is impossible to please Him." 

 

So we believe in the perfection which only God knows and gives to us through faith in His Son. Apart from that we are in the dark, comparing ourselves among ourselves.

Amen.

[wingnut-]

I John 1:⁸ If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. ⁹ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. ¹⁰ If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

 

Wow.  Talk about a mis-interpretation.  What was the angel king over?  He was king over the locusts who struck everyone but those who had the seal of God on their foreheads.  This was not Satan it was an angel of God who let loose a plague of locusts on the world.

 

Rev 9:3-5  Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.  (4)  They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.  (5)  And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

 

Revelation 12 does not tie into this passage.  However it supports my point even more.  Those who did not love their life, meaning they loved Christ more than themselves, not turning away from Christ are told to rejoice because Satan was cast down.  Then had overcome Satan.

 

Rev 12:11-12  "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.  (12)  "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

 

Again, being accused of something does not mean one is guilty.  The Pharisees didn't accuse Jesus on their own, they did that which their father, Satan directed them to do.  They were serving Satan.  You have no argument.

 

 

I think the misinterpretation is yours, try reading Joel lol.  And who is the destroyer?  Perhaps you should reconsider condemnation for others, including the pharisees, since judging is not your place.  In fact, we are told to pray for those who persecute us, do you do this for your ex wife?  If not, that would make you imperfect.

 

 

I don't need to read Joel to understand that the angel of the abyss was an angel of God.  Revelation plainly states it.

 

Actually Christ is the one who charged the Pharisees of having Satan for their father.  I simply repeated what Christ said so I am not the one judging them.  

 

Actually I have prayed for my ex-wife, both for her sake and the sake of my two daughters.  One of them turn completely away from her mother because she knew what she does is wrong and against God.  The other unfortunately has feared the wrath of her mother and listened to her guidance causing mischief in my home.

 

 

 

Actually you do need to read Joel to understand prophecy, but that is for another thread.  In regards to this, it really comes down to understanding basic scripture.

 

Romans 3:⁹ What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. ¹⁰ As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

¹¹     there is no one who understands;

    there is no one who seeks God.

¹² All have turned away,

    they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

    not even one.”

 

Romans 3:²¹ But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. ²² This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

 

You have to digest the milk before you try chewing the meat.

 

 

Why don’t you enlighten me on what in Joel you are trying to point to instead of me trying to figure out what you are trying to say?  Revelation is clear.  Satan would not send forth locusts to torture and torment those who are already his, he would send them after those who are God’s.  And those who are Christ's have overcome the evil one, Satan.  If one is still sinning they have not overcome the evil one.

 

1Jn 2:13-14  I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.  (14)  I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

 

 

Again you mis-interpret scripture when you point to the passages in Romans.  How about looking up the passages in the Old Testament to which Paul is quoting?  He is speaking of the fools.  David is saying the fools, those who claim there is no God are corrupt and none of them do good.  He says God looks down and asks, do these workers of wickedness not recognize they are eating up His people.

 

Psa 14:1-7  For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.  (2)  The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.  (3)  They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.  (4)  Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?  (5)  There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.  (6)  You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.  (7)  Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

 

Psa 53:1-6  For the choir director; according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good.  (2)  God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God.  (3)  Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.  (4)  Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up My people as though they ate bread And have not called upon God?  (5)  There they were in great fear where no fear had been; For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you; You put them to shame, because God had rejected them.  (6)  Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores His captive people, Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

 

First when it says "There is no one righteous, not even one" it is not referring to those who are His, who are seeking the righteousness which comes through Him.  For Christians this comes through His Holy Spirit, for the Spirit guides us so that we become slaves of obedience which results in righteousness and sanctification with the outcome of eternal life, Romans 6. This is speaking to the world in general because the world in general has turned from the Father and were not seeking Him. 

 

Second, you misuse Romans 3:21-23 like so many others do.  When it says "all have sinned and fallen short" it is speaking of past and not future with respect to those who turn to seek God, especially Christians who are led by the Spirit.  This passage does not say all continue to sin and fall short.

 

Third, you seem to believe in a grace different then expressed by scripture.  Grace is not a covering given by God so we will be covered for continued sin.  Grace didn't start and stop at the cross as so many teach.  Grace started with the example Christ left for us to follow and continues throughout the life of those who are sanctified by the Spirit, the Helper.  Christ died while we were yet sinners, while we were still helpless and not because we are still sinners and still helpless.

 

Rom 5:6-10  For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.  (7)  For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.  (8)  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  (9)  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.  (10)  For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

Christians are no longer sinners and no longer helpless because Christ sent the Helper, the Holy Spirit, unto us so that we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, but produce the fruit of the Spirit against which there is no law.  Thus, Satan may accuse, but they will not be found guilty by any law.  Christians are righteous because they are obedient and keep His commandments, which is why the scripture says the following.  

 

1Ti 1:5-14  But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.  (6)  For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,  (7)  wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.  (8)  But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,  (9)  realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers  (10)  and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,  (11)  according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.  (12)  I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,  (13)  even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;  (14)  and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

 

1Pe 4:12-19  Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;  (13)  but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.  (14)  If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.  (15)  Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;  (16)  but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.  (17)  For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?  (18)  AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?  (19)  Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

 

Sinners are called out as being separate from the righteous.  This is also the meaning of the parable of the sower.  Four groups are described with only one group being those of God.

 

The righteous are those who have shared in the sufferings of Christ, which is to say those who have learned obedience through the things they have suffered just as Christ learned obedience through the things He suffered.  Likewise, at the beginning of 1 Peter 4, Peter says those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

 

1Pe 4:1-2  Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,  (2)  so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

 

Finally, what is the true grace of God.  It is that we will be perfected through sufferings just as Christ was perfected through sufferings being led by the Spirit.

 

1Pe 5:6-12  Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,  (7)  casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.  (8)  Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.  (9)  But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.  (10)  After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.  (11)  To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.  (12)  Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it!

 

Heb 9:13-14  For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,  (14)  how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

The righteous are innocent having had their past sins washed away and are now serving Him in the newness of the spirit being led by His Spirit to produce the fruit of the Spirit and not the deeds of the flesh.  Therefore Satan is accusing the innocent brethren who are like their Teacher.

 

Mat 10:24-25  "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.  (25)  "It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

 

Luk 6:39-40  And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?  (40)  "A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

 

1Jn 4:17  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

 

I have digested the milk and am sustained on the meat.

[Mr Nice]

 

@Wingnut

 

All have sinned and not all are sinners. There is a difference. 

 

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. - John 8:34

 

No man has any advantage, but all have been subject to mercy. It is by God's mercy we aren't punished the moment we commit a death worthy sin with death. It is by his mercy that he lets rain go on the wicked and the righteous. The Apostles, the Gentiles to whom the Gospel was preached and the Prophets, with Jesus being the exception, all sinned before following The Way. Because of that nobody can have any advantage over another, all are subject to mercy. Jesus was without sin, and yet he was even still more merciful than many. The next part addresses that the way of faith was unknown but God made it know. The way of legalism is not the way to heaven (which is to try to justify ones self by works and outward things rather than being cleansed by Christ inwardly), this is what Paul explained. The part 'and all are justified freely by grace through his redemption that came by Jesus Christ' part refers to being freed. Google the definition of redemption and it shows this: 'the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil'. The other is this 'the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment, or clearing a debt.' The sacrifice of the law was paid for. No need to shed blood until judgement. Christ paid the debt of the second definition. Jesus said whoever practices sin is a slave to sin, and if redemption is to save from sin error or evil, then why would they still be enslaved?

 

 

Google lol.  No thanks, but maybe you should google the definition of grace.

 

  Yes, wingnut, please look up the defintion of grace by googling God's word.  Search for "true grace" in scripture.

[wingnut-]

 

I don't need to read Joel to understand that the angel of the abyss was an angel of God.  Revelation plainly states it.

 

 

 

 

 

What is Satan?  An angel.  What is the abyss and where is it located?  Who is the destroyer?

 

 

Romans 3:²¹ But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. ²² This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

Righteousness is what?  Given, not earned.   All are justified freely by what?  His grace, not by their works.

 

You post this passage, but fail to grasp what it says.

 

I Peter 5:(9)  But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.  (10)  After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

 

Who perfects?  He does, not you.  Who confirms, strengthens and establishes you?  He does, not you.  What would a perfect person need confirmation, strengthening, or establishing for?

[enoob57]

Mr Nice purports one may take the darkness which passes away and make it into light....

Edited February 1, 2015 by enoob57