Christian perfection

[Willa]

I repeat:

 

Philippians 3:12 is referring to Paul's not already having attained perfection.  It would be pretty stupid for Paul to proclaim that he had not already arisen from the dead.  

 

1 John 1:8 clearly states that IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IT US..  NKJV

This certainly states that we are not yet perfect and that those who think they are are only fooling themselves.  

 

Can we overcome habitual sin?  By all means.  

Can we lead a victorious, abundant life?  Absolutely

Will we all be perfect like Jesus when we are in heaven?  Yes, because we will see Him as He is.  

Can we live in love and never fail?  Like I said, I would like to hear from your wife..  But that certainly is our goal.

Since salvation is completely a gift from God, there is nothing I can do to add to the work of Christ.  But the bride of Christ will be clothed in the righteous acts of the saints.  These acts are the product of our salvation.  They don't produce salvation, salvation produces them.  No one is saved by good works or there would be a lot of boasting in heaven, as stated in. Eph. 2.  

 

Since this is only an opinion forum and few are allowed to teach, I will refrain from sermons or tomes.  I have stated my opinion as confirmed by scripture.  Nor will I debate this issue.

 

Perhaps someone else would like to debate this in the soapbox debate or one of our teaching staff would teach on this issue in the study group.  

 

Having said that, I am very grateful to God for giving some of you victory over sin in your lives by whatever means, and I would never want to take that away from you.

He did a similar work in me by changing me to look more like Jesus by the washing of the Word and the finished work on the cross.  I bear this treasure, Jesus, in this imperfect cracked pot of an earthen vessel.

 

Meanwhile we agree to disagree, and we continue to love each other in spite of conflicting interpretations of God's Word.  It is the Spirit of Christ in each of us that unifies us and gives us true common ground. I also respect anyone who bases their doctrine on God's Word.

 

Blessings to you all,

Willa

[Kan]

It is difficult to discuss this theme, because our idea of perfection is only just that, but real perfection is in Christ and who knows how great that is?

 

While we cannot comprehend that perfection, we can know where it lies - only in Christ, and if Christ is Lord of our hearts then we are perfect in the eyes of God.

 

Some would like to define perfection by the law of God, and here again our perception is tainted, because we tend to miss its spiritual application, as Jesus said, if you think hatred, it is as bad as eliminating the person hated.

So even the law is not as simple and disposable as we would like to think. As said "the law is spiritual" and good.

The righteousness of God is something completely out of our reach and imagination, but Christ unites us by His love, which fulfills the law within us. So to say that we continue to sin - either heavily or in moderation while Christ dwells in us is not scriptural. Yet to say one is without sin is a lie, because the moment that thought is given, the mind has been removed from the Source of righteousness to self, which is sin. It is appropriate to think of self and our impact on others, but when it comes to righteousness, it's not a good place to look. "The heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things."

 

If we are constantly wanting to be close and in love with God, we are not aware of our performance, we don't even want to go there because our history is one of failures and self deception anyway. So we forget ourselves altogether, our performance, our sins and potential to sin, no longer have any bearing because we don't care how rotten and unreliable we are, we know we love Him.

 

The Spirit then convicts us of sin, rather than us. It is no longer us monitoring our own ways. Because we don't expect anything better from ourselves anyhow, and so feeling abandoned and lost we eventually give up all of our endeavors of righteous living and self assessment.

Yet, it is the Spirit of Christ who brings us to this point, to make us free of boring self interest, and just choose to risk all for love, to cast ourselves onto His mercy, knowing that He is judge, wondering about Him, and wishing we could just see Him, to have one look of unpretentious love, if nothing else.

 

The miracle of conversion is that the beginning of our thoughts, the very motives are changed, which creates conflict with the natural desires. Our sinful nature remains, but there is a new life there, one that is gaining victories. How does Christ do this through life's circumstances and so many things? we don't know, it's a miracle.

 

If we remove our focus from Christ onto our performance, even trying to evaluate the expected works of God within us, we are bound to sink, "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Peter was able to walk on water when Christ invited him, but as soon as he turned to measure his performance, he became distracted and afraid, leaving him to sink.

 

Can God keep us from sinning, to walk perfectly before Him? Yes.

Can we know how? No.

 

How are we to look at ourselves then? 

 

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith."

 

We received faith upon birth without our involvement or control, now the work of God can be finished by being born again, being saved without the deceptive meddling of self judgement and control.

 

If that is true, we no longer judge ourselves, because we can put unwarranted guilt onto ourselves, or on the other hand, think we are flying to heaven.

Now if we don't judge ourselves, then we don't judge others, and God doesn't judge us. 

 

"The just shall live by his faith."

[Mr Nice]

 Romans 7 is not about Paul's life and struggle with sin prior to conversion.  Paul speaks to the inner struggle of the flesh against the Spirit which he highlights in Galatians.   Rom. 7:14-25 is Paul's admittance.   Paul makes it clear, particularly in verses. 18-25 that sin dwells in his flesh (sinful nature).  The sinful nature, our propensity to sin has not been eradicated.  We are still sinful people.

 

The New Testament never anticipates that Christians will walk in sinless perfection while living in this world, prior to receiving our glorified bodies.   The sin nature will not be eradicated until either a person dies and goes home to be with Jesus or the Lord returns and receive our glorified bodies at that time.

 

We are made objectively holy the moment we are born again.  I am objectively perfected by the blood of Jesus and the part of me that is born of God never sins.  However, my flesh, my sinful nature was not removed at salvation and there is still a personal struggle taking place.

 

I may not be living aberrant sinfulness, but to presume that I never sin  is just arrogant.  We sin in commission or omission.  None of could ever possibly live to the same righteous standard that Jesus lived.    The Bible tells us that we are set apart and made holy in Christ.  Every demand that God makes of us, His grace provides.   We are commanded to live holy lives, upright and blameless.  We are to live above sin and to conduct ourselves in a manner that reflects  the holiness of God that He has wrought in us.   We are not commanded to manufacture the holiness of God through our own efforts.

 

I am not made holy before God by virtue of anything I do.  I am made holy through grace of God and finished work of Jesus on the cross.   The one thing we really need to get a hold of is that God everything we need from God is provided by Jesus.   There is nothing we could possibly achieve through our own efforts that the grace of God through Jesus hasn't already provided.   Our works are meant to be a display of holiness, not the means of achieving it. 

 

If Paul still commits sin then he is under the Law because sin is contrary to the fruit of the Spirit which is not under the Law, therefore he would be judged by the Law instead of the law of Christ.  I agree our propensity to sin is not eradicated, but that does not mean we are sinful.  Can a Christian fall into temptation? Absolutely, if he turns from Christ and is not lead by the Spirit, but that doesn't mean he will sin or that he is still a sinful person. If he believes he is incapable of sinning he is incorrect, but this does not mean he will sin.  Galatians 5:17 speaks of the spiritual battle which occurs between the the Spirit and the flesh, but it is not stating the flesh continually wins.  This is evident in verses 22 - 25 where Paul says those who who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and if we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. If we our claiming we have crucified our flesh with its passions and desires then we are claiming it no longer has power over us.

 

How do you read the New Testament and not find scripture that speaks of us as walking in sinless perfection as Christians?  Every bit of the New Testament is speaking living for Christ, following His example of not sinning, crucifying the flesh, burying the old man in baptism, being raised in newness of life to serve God and God alone.  If we are not expected to stop sinning, why was it commanded so many times in both the Old and the New Testaments?  If we were not expected to stop sinning as a Christian, how do explain the following passages?

 

Col 3:5-13  Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.  (6)  For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,  (7)  and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.  (8)  But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.  (9)  Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,  (10)  and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--  (11)  a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.  (12)  So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;  (13)  bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

 

1Th 4:3-8  For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;  (4)  that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,  (5)  not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;  (6)  and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.  (7)  For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.  (8)  So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

 

Quoted from above: "We are made objectively holy the moment we are born again.  I am objectively perfected by the blood of Jesus and the part of me that is born of God never sins.  However, my flesh, my sinful nature was not removed at salvation and there is still a personal struggle taking place."

 

Do you claim you are lead by the Spirit?  If so, why are you still sinning?  How are you not a slave to impurity and lawlessness (a slave of sin) if you are continuing to present the members of your body as slaves to lawlessness Romans 6:19?

 

I may not be living aberrant sinfulness, but to presume that I never sin  is just arrogant. 

 

How is it arrogance if an individual claims he never sins by relying on all that God has promised He would do for those who believe?

 

We are not commanded to manufacture the holiness of God through our own efforts.

 

Why do you continue to return to the argument about our own efforts?  I have not made a single claim that salvation is based on our efforts.  Everything we are able to do as Christians with respect to not sinning is only possible because we rely on Christ and His Spirit.  God has given us everything for life and godliness so that we can follow His example.  As Paul says, we can do all things through Him who strengthens us.  The problem is that you don't believe that you can do all things through Him for all things are possible with God.  Why are you putting a limit on what God can do in your life when there is not a limit?  

 

Eph 3:20-21  Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,  (21)  to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

 

I am not made holy before God by virtue of anything I do. 

 

I agree.  Nothing we do of our own accord makes us holy, but what we do by being lead by the Spirit does. Have you read Romans 6?  Through being lead by His Spirit we do not fulfill the desires of the flesh, thus we are being slaves to obedience, resulting in righteousness, which results in sanctification in which the outcome is eternal life.  This requires being freed from sin.  Paul says we are to present our selves a living and holy sacrifices to God by being renewed by His Spirit, so we can prove what the will of God is.

 

Rom 12:1-2  Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.  (2)  And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

 

1Th 4:3-8  For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;  (4)  that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,  (5)  not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;  (6)  and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.  (7)  For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.  (8)  So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

 

The last passage sure sounds like being holy as He is holy requires us to do something, albeit through the Holy Spirit, but it still must be done.

[Mr Nice]

I repeat:

 

Philippians 3:12 is referring to Paul's not already having attained perfection.  It would be pretty stupid for Paul to proclaim that he had not already arisen from the dead.  

 

1 John 1:8 clearly states that IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IT US..  NKJV

This certainly states that we are not yet perfect and that those who think they are are only fooling themselves.  

 

Can we overcome habitual sin?  By all means.  

Can we lead a victorious, abundant life?  Absolutely

Will we all be perfect like Jesus when we are in heaven?  Yes, because we will see Him as He is.  

Can we live in love and never fail?  Like I said, I would like to hear from your wife..  But that certainly is our goal.

Since salvation is completely a gift from God, there is nothing I can do to add to the work of Christ.  But the bride of Christ will be clothed in the righteous acts of the saints.  These acts are the product of our salvation.  They don't produce salvation, salvation produces them.  No one is saved by good works or there would be a lot of boasting in heaven, as stated in. Eph. 2.  

 

Since this is only an opinion forum and few are allowed to teach, I will refrain from sermons or tomes.  I have stated my opinion as confirmed by scripture.  Nor will I debate this issue.

 

Perhaps someone else would like to debate this in the soapbox debate or one of our teaching staff would teach on this issue in the study group.  

 

Having said that, I am very grateful to God for giving some of you victory over sin in your lives by whatever means, and I would never want to take that away from you.

He did a similar work in me by changing me to look more like Jesus by the washing of the Word and the finished work on the cross.  I bear this treasure, Jesus, in this imperfect cracked pot of an earthen vessel.

 

Meanwhile we agree to disagree, and we continue to love each other in spite of conflicting interpretations of God's Word.  It is the Spirit of Christ in each of us that unifies us and gives us true common ground. I also respect anyone who bases their doctrine on God's Word.

 

Blessings to you all,

Willa

 In reference to 1 John 1:8, in order for someone to become a Christian they must accept that Christ is the Son of God and that they have sinned against go, that is to say they must confess that they have sinned.  A Christian's claim and confession immediately removes them from those described by verse 8.  Claiming to have no sin and have ceased from sin have no connection.  Please stop trying to make them the same.

 

I am sorry you do not believe you can possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor, that you can cleanse yourself (through His Spirit) of all wickedness so that you can be a vessel of honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

1Th 4:2-8  For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.  (3)  For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;  (4)  that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,  (5)  not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;  (6)  and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.  (7)  For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.  (8)  So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

 

2Ti 2:19-22  Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."  (20)  Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.  (21)  Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.  (22)  Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

 

I thank you for your discussion on this topic and I hope you pray and study to see if what you have come to believe is the truth.  I don't want anyone to believe me on what I have written.  Everyone needs to study God's word in order to know the truth.  I have been studying this for years and have actually tried to disprove it because of what it means if it is true.  If it is true that we are to be perfect, pure, holy, and righteous as He is (that is to say no longer committing sin but producing the fruit of the Spirit which is the opposite of sin) then all those who continue to sin whether it is habitually or not will be condemned along with those who have not accepted Christ.  Like God, I wish that all mankind would would come to repentance and be saved.

 

2Pe 3:9-11  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.  (10)  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.  (11)  Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

 

2Ti 2:24-26  The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,  (25)  with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,  (26)  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

[Guest shiloh357]

I thank you for your discussion on this topic and I hope you pray and study to see if what you have come to believe is the truth.  I don't want anyone to believe me on what I have written.  Everyone needs to study God's word in order to know the truth.  I have been studying this for years and have actually tried to disprove it because of what it means if it is true.  If it is true that we are to be perfect, pure, holy, and righteous as He is (that is to say no longer committing sin but producing the fruit of the Spirit which is the opposite of sin) then all those who continue to sin whether it is habitually or not will be condemned along with those who have not accepted Christ.  Like God, I wish that all mankind would would come to repentance and be saved

.If a person commits a single sin, they are condemned to hell?   There is no salvation in that event.  Jesus died for nothing if, in the end, you end up paying for your own sin.

 

Your problem is that you don't understand holiness.   We are made holy by God, not by own efforts.  We are commanded to live in holiness in order to reflect the holiness that is wrought by God in us through Christ.   There is nothing you can do to manufacture God's holiness in yourself.   We are never commanded to make ourselves holy.  

 

You are teaching a contemptible false gospel.  You are trusting in your own efforts and not in Christ and that places you outside of the true Christian faith.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 Romans 7 is not about Paul's life and struggle with sin prior to conversion.  Paul speaks to the inner struggle of the flesh against the Spirit which he highlights in Galatians.   Rom. 7:14-25 is Paul's admittance.   Paul makes it clear, particularly in verses. 18-25 that sin dwells in his flesh (sinful nature).  The sinful nature, our propensity to sin has not been eradicated.  We are still sinful people.

 

The New Testament never anticipates that Christians will walk in sinless perfection while living in this world, prior to receiving our glorified bodies.   The sin nature will not be eradicated until either a person dies and goes home to be with Jesus or the Lord returns and receive our glorified bodies at that time.

 

We are made objectively holy the moment we are born again.  I am objectively perfected by the blood of Jesus and the part of me that is born of God never sins.  However, my flesh, my sinful nature was not removed at salvation and there is still a personal struggle taking place.

 

I may not be living aberrant sinfulness, but to presume that I never sin  is just arrogant.  We sin in commission or omission.  None of could ever possibly live to the same righteous standard that Jesus lived.    The Bible tells us that we are set apart and made holy in Christ.  Every demand that God makes of us, His grace provides.   We are commanded to live holy lives, upright and blameless.  We are to live above sin and to conduct ourselves in a manner that reflects  the holiness of God that He has wrought in us.   We are not commanded to manufacture the holiness of God through our own efforts.

 

I am not made holy before God by virtue of anything I do.  I am made holy through grace of God and finished work of Jesus on the cross.   The one thing we really need to get a hold of is that God everything we need from God is provided by Jesus.   There is nothing we could possibly achieve through our own efforts that the grace of God through Jesus hasn't already provided.   Our works are meant to be a display of holiness, not the means of achieving it. 

 

If Paul still commits sin then he is under the Law because sin is contrary to the fruit of the Spirit which is not under the Law, therefore he would be judged by the Law instead of the law of Christ.  I agree our propensity to sin is not eradicated, but that does not mean we are sinful.  Can a Christian fall into temptation? Absolutely, if he turns from Christ and is not lead by the Spirit, but that doesn't mean he will sin or that he is still a sinful person. If he believes he is incapable of sinning he is incorrect, but this does not mean he will sin.  Galatians 5:17 speaks of the spiritual battle which occurs between the the Spirit and the flesh, but it is not stating the flesh continually wins.  This is evident in verses 22 - 25 where Paul says those who who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and if we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. If we our claiming we have crucified our flesh with its passions and desires then we are claiming it no longer has power over us.

 

Actually, your propensity to sin is the surest sign that you are still a sinner.   What places a person under the law is the notion that one can be made holy through one's efforts.   The notion that obedience to God's commandments is an impediment to sin like what you teach is proof that you are under the law and not under grace.  You are not in Christ.  You are trying earn salvation through your own fleshy good works, and you have not trusted in Christ for salvation.

 

How do you read the New Testament and not find scripture that speaks of us as walking in sinless perfection as Christians?  Every bit of the New Testament is speaking living for Christ, following His example of not sinning, crucifying the flesh, burying the old man in baptism, being raised in newness of life to serve God and God alone.  If we are not expected to stop sinning, why was it commanded so many times in both the Old and the New Testaments?  If we were not expected to stop sinning as a Christian, how do explain the following passages?

 

The New Testament, nowhere anticipates that we will live as to never commit even a single sin the rest of our lives.  Paul is constantly having to deal with sin in the churches.  So is John.  There is no indication in any of the epistles that their sin means that all those people are condemned to hell and Paul never claims that anyone is condemned to hell simply because they committed a sin.   That is just something YOU made up.

 

Yes we are commanded to stop sinning, but the Bible also tells us that God's grace is here for us when we do sin, to forgive and keep us saved.  If salvation is based on me living right then there is no salvation.  Do you really want to stand before God on the basis of your own merit?   Do you want salvation to be based on your effort?   Do you trust in yourself to meet God's standard of perfection? 

 

God has only one standard of perfection:  HIMSELF.    You would have to be as sinless as God in order to be saved according to the standard you keep trying to erect here.   That means that you have to have been as sinless as God from birth.  You can never meet God's standard of perfection.  The ONLY person to ever be as sinless God the Father is Jesus.  Jesus was sinless from birth and unlike you, Jesus had no sin nature.   He didn't have the stain of sin on Him to taint his good works.    You, on the other hand, are stained with the sin into which you were born.  So everything you do is imperfect and worthless and stained with sin.   That is why trying to keep your salvation through your own efforts is pointless and futile and why trusting in your efforts for salvation will only guarantee that you will wind up in Hell.

 

We are commanded to live holy lives.  God holds up the standard before us, but it is a standard we can't meet.  God's standard of holiness can only be met through Christ IN us.   We cannot by force of our own efforts achieve that standard God has set.   He doesn't make our salvation conditional on us living up to His standard.   Christ is the standard and Christ has met God's requirements on our behalf, and all that He has done is imputed to us.  His righteousness is imputed to us when we are born again.   The righteousness we cannot achieve in our own strength, God provides.   God, by His grace also provides the holiness He demands. 

 

God commands us to be Holy as HE is holy.   We can't.   Nothing I can do will make me holy on the same quality of holiness that God possesses in Himself.   I can't reach Him that way.   It's God's grace that makes me holy as He is holy.  It's not rooted in my efforts.  I am  a sin stained follower of Jesus and I always will be until I am dead or Jesus returns.   If my holiness were rooted in my efforts, all hope is lost.

 

The part of me that is born of God, the part that goes to heaven when I die, doesn't sin.  My flesh sins.  My flesh wars against the Spirit (Rom. 7: 14-25, Gal. 5)   The part of me that God has reborn, doesn't ever commit a single sin, but I have human, fleshly nature that I still live in and am at war with and has not been regenerated yet and it still wants to lay claim to me and I struggle with it all of the time, just like Paul struggled with it in his life.

 

Do you claim you are lead by the Spirit?  If so, why are you still sinning?  How are you not a slave to impurity and lawlessness (a slave of sin) if you are continuing to present the members of your body as slaves to lawlessness Romans 6:19?

 

Being led by the Spirit, in Galatians 5 is juxtaposed against living according to the law and using the law of God as an impediment against sinning.  Being led by the Spirit is the opposite of trying to be please God by one's own efforts.

 

When Paul wrote to the Galatians about being led by Spirit, he was not speaking to a congregation that was trying to live sinful lives.  He was writing to a group who had been deceived by a cult that they had to keep the law, they had to do good works in addition to faith in Christ in order to enter the Kingdom of God.   Jesus, wasn't enough to save them as far as they were concerned.   Paul was writing them because they were believing the same lies and were under the same deception that you are under.

 

Being led by the Spirit is the opposite of trying to be saved by works.  It doesn't mean that you will never ever commit a single sin.  It means that your life is surrendered to the leading of the Spirit in a general sense.  Paul never says if that we are commanded to never commit a single sin.   That is just your false, unChristian teaching.

 

How is it arrogance if an individual claims he never sins by relying on all that God has promised He would do for those who believe?

 

Because you are invoking promises that were never made.  Nowhere does God promise that you will never commit a single sin.

 

It is also arrogance because you trust in your own works and not in Christ and in doing so you present yourself as righteous as Christ by your own efforts.  It is a slap in the face to Jesus and it amounts to trampling His finished work on the cross under your feet.

 

Why do you continue to return to the argument about our own efforts?  I have not made a single claim that salvation is based on our efforts.

 

Everything you say is about trusting in your own efforts.  You have a works-based system of righteousness that places all of the responsibility for salvation on you, and not on Jesus.

[Mr Nice]

 

I thank you for your discussion on this topic and I hope you pray and study to see if what you have come to believe is the truth.  I don't want anyone to believe me on what I have written.  Everyone needs to study God's word in order to know the truth.  I have been studying this for years and have actually tried to disprove it because of what it means if it is true.  If it is true that we are to be perfect, pure, holy, and righteous as He is (that is to say no longer committing sin but producing the fruit of the Spirit which is the opposite of sin) then all those who continue to sin whether it is habitually or not will be condemned along with those who have not accepted Christ.  Like God, I wish that all mankind would would come to repentance and be saved

.If a person commits a single sin, they are condemned to hell?   There is no salvation in that event.  Jesus died for nothing if, in the end, you end up paying for your own sin.

 

Your problem is that you don't understand holiness.   We are made holy by God, not by own efforts.  We are commanded to live in holiness in order to reflect the holiness that is wrought by God in us through Christ.   There is nothing you can do to manufacture God's holiness in yourself.   We are never commanded to make ourselves holy.  

 

You are teaching a contemptible false gospel.  You are trusting in your own efforts and not in Christ and that places you outside of the true Christian faith.

 

Yes in the end if you are in sin because you have not truly repented there is condemnation.  John says in Revelation that unless those in the churches repented and overcame what was wrong in their lives (their sins), their names would be stricken from the book of life.  God told them He saw all of their good works, but because sin still remained in their lives they would not be accepted.  We must notice that in the letter to Sardis God says their were some who had not soiled their garments and they will walk with Him in white for they are worthy.  This sure sounds a lot like if we don't obey God we will be lost, but if we do keep His Word then we will walk with Him in white for we will have been found worthy.

 

I am pretty sure I do understand what holiness means.  I also know that holiness comes when we are lead by the Holy Spirit whom Christ sent to us to help in our time of need.  Again you continue to talk about my personal efforts.  Where as I am believing in what God has said that He will bring in to pass.  God isn't going to force obedience on us, we have to accept His help.   

 

2Co 7:1  Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 

 

2Co 1:12  For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you. 

 

1Th 3:11-13  Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;  (12)  and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you;  (13)  so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

 

If nothing we do as Christians pertains to our salvation why are those who call on the Lord or who names the name of the Lord to do the following and why would God command them to do what can not be done according to what you believe.

 

Are to flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 

Are to abstain from wickedness.

 

Can a person who calls on the Lord keep these commandments?  If not, why not?  If they can yet don't, would God not have the right to judge them?  

 

Wow.  So you are saying that believing I can be saved by grace through faith in the promises of God is a contemptible false doctrine.  That is a bold claim considering that I claim we can only truly obey God with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, therefore our boasting would be in what the Lord has provide.  This is fulfilling exactly what the scripture says.

 

Eph 2:8-10  For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;  (9)  not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.  (10)  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

Tit 3:1-8  Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,  (2)  to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.  (3)  For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.  (4)  But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,  (5)  He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,  (6)  whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  (7)  so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.  (8)  This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

I thank you for your discussion on this topic and I hope you pray and study to see if what you have come to believe is the truth.  I don't want anyone to believe me on what I have written.  Everyone needs to study God's word in order to know the truth.  I have been studying this for years and have actually tried to disprove it because of what it means if it is true.  If it is true that we are to be perfect, pure, holy, and righteous as He is (that is to say no longer committing sin but producing the fruit of the Spirit which is the opposite of sin) then all those who continue to sin whether it is habitually or not will be condemned along with those who have not accepted Christ.  Like God, I wish that all mankind would would come to repentance and be saved

.If a person commits a single sin, they are condemned to hell?   There is no salvation in that event.  Jesus died for nothing if, in the end, you end up paying for your own sin.

 

Your problem is that you don't understand holiness.   We are made holy by God, not by own efforts.  We are commanded to live in holiness in order to reflect the holiness that is wrought by God in us through Christ.   There is nothing you can do to manufacture God's holiness in yourself.   We are never commanded to make ourselves holy.  

 

You are teaching a contemptible false gospel.  You are trusting in your own efforts and not in Christ and that places you outside of the true Christian faith.

 

Yes in the end if you are in sin because you have not truly repented there is condemnation. 

 

So if a person sins, but dies a minute later  before they are able to repent of that sin, they go to hell?

 

How do you know you repented of every sin you have ever committed since you have  been saved?  Do you really want to place your ultimate faith in the fact that you have repented of 100% of every sin?    How can you be certain you haven't forgotten something?

 

John says in Revelation that unless those in the churches repented and overcame what was wrong in their lives (their sins), their names would be stricken from the book of life.  God told them He saw all of their good works, but because sin still remained in their lives they would not be accepted.  We must notice that in the letter to Sardis God says their were some who had not soiled their garments and they will walk with Him in white for they are worthy.  This sure sounds a lot like if we don't obey God we will be lost, but if we do keep His Word then we will walk with Him in white for we will have been found worthy.

 

Actually you need to go back re-read what is said to the church at sardis. They were a dead church.  There is a difference between those who have an empty profession of faith, who were never saved, who continue to live in sin versus committing a single sin.  Nothing in that letter indicates that if you commit ONE sin that you are doomed to hell  The Bible never says that.   Again, you are a false teacher.

 

I am pretty sure I do understand what holiness means.  I also know that holiness comes when we are lead by the Holy Spirit whom Christ sent to us to help in our time of need.  Again you continue to talk about my personal efforts.  Where as I am believing in what God has said that He will bring in to pass.  God isn't going to force obedience on us, we have to accept His help.   

 

 

No, according to what you actually say, your salvation is based on you living a sinless perfect life, which God never promises we will live.   Your salvation rests on you being able to remember every sin you have ever committed since you were saved and repenting for it.  Ultimately, your salvation is based on YOU saving yourself and not on Jesus not on faith in God.  God has little to do with how you think salvation works or how it is obtained.

 

If nothing we do as Christians pertains to our salvation why are those who call on the Lord or who names the name of the Lord to do the following and why would God command them to do what can not be done according to what you believe.

 

 

I didn't say that works don't pertain to salvation.   I said that they have nothing to do with us staying saved.  They pertain to our salvation in that we demonstrate our salvation by our works. We don't depend on our works for salvation.

 

Can a person who calls on the Lord keep these commandments?  If not, why not?  If they can yet don't, would God not have the right to judge them?  

 

 

You can physically keep the commandments, but you are still a redeemed sinner.  You still have a sin nature.  Your fleshly nature taints your observance of God's commandments.   You can keep them, but your observance will not make you holy.

 That is a bold claim considering that I claim we can only truly obey God with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, therefore our boasting would be in what the Lord has provide.  This is fulfilling exactly what the scripture says.

 

Wow.  So you are saying that believing I can be saved by grace through faith in the promises of God is a contemptible false doctrine.

No, I am saying that your doctrine of salvation by works and personal effort is a false doctrine.   You are trying to be saved by being holy enough to deserve salvation.  That is why what you teach is contemptible.

[enoob57]

Mr Nice Shiloh is not the only one here that is distraught over what you write!  A brief look into the light

of your writing:

 

The Son of God praying in the garden, before giving himself to the cross, asked the Father for

another way with an intensity that is rarely seen in the world that of bloody sweat ... yet Jesus gave all

this desire to The Fathers Will and no other way was possible for us to be saved! So when you put

self effort through works with this it is as filthy as a menstrual cloth  to us... and we pray for your soul

that you might see this! 

Love, Steven

Edited January 3, 2015 by enoob57

[OneLight]

Mr Nice,
 
What does 1 Corinthians 13:12 mean to you?
 

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.