If it's biblical it's true, yes?

[JohnD]

 

Okay. The Church is grafted into Israel.

 

Which one? Physical

 

or Spirit?

 

~

 

One

 

a bruised reed he will not break, 

 

and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; Matthew 12:29 (ESV)

 

Plus One

 

and in his name the Gentiles will hope.” Matthew 12:21 (ESV)

 

Equals One New Humanity

 

by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.

 

His purpose was to create in himself

 

one new humanity out of the two,

 

thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15 (NIV)

 

Yes?

 

For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end.

 

Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. 1 Peter 1:23 (NLT)

 

 

Yes. Beginning with Israel in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant.

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

Commentary by Paul:

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Referred back to:

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[Guest]

 

 

Okay. The Church is grafted into Israel.

 

Which one? Physical

 

or Spirit?

 

~

 

One

 

a bruised reed he will not break, 

 

and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; Matthew 12:29 (ESV)

 

Plus One

 

and in his name the Gentiles will hope.” Matthew 12:21 (ESV)

 

Equals One New Humanity

 

by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.

 

His purpose was to create in himself

 

one new humanity out of the two,

 

thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15 (NIV)

 

Yes?

 

For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end.

 

Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. 1 Peter 1:23 (NLT)

 

Yes. Beginning with Israel in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant.

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

Commentary by Paul:

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Referred back to:

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

 

Beloved, Some Confuse Israel With All Nations

 

I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. Ezekiel 34:13 (NIV)

 

And Some Think The Root

 

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; Romans 11:26 (ESV)

 

Is Only For The 

 

In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. Isaiah 11:10 (NIV)

 

Jew

 

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. Revelation 7:9 (NIV)

[Guest shiloh357]

John DB, Rom. 2:28-29 is not talking about the concept of "Spiritual Jew" that you have made up.   It certainly is not referring to a Gentle being a spiritual Jew.   Circumcision of the heart refers to sanctification.  It refers to the cutting off of sin from our lives.

 

Romans 1 an 2 is addressing the fact that Gentiles and Jews are equally sinful and equally in need of God's grace.   In Chapter 2, Paul is speaking to the Jewish person and specifically to the point that being Jewish doesn't give a Jewish person any kind of advantage where access to God's grace is concerned.   Paul is addressing the fact that Jews who wear their Jewishness on their sleeve but violate God's Torah are no better than the Gentiles and will not get a free pass from God simply because they are Jewish.

 

Paul by the end of Romans 2 is addressing to the Jewish person, what it means to be Jewish.   Paul is advising that to be truly Jewish, the Jewish person needs to be obedient to the commandments of God, live a holy, life  and glorify God.  

 

Circumcision of the heart is not a redemptive concept.  Circumcision is not a metaphor for salvation.   Circumcision of the heart  also  does not make a person "Jewish."   Circumcision of the heart doesn't make a Gentile in to a "spiritual Jew."

 

Nowhere does the NT claim that Gentiles are spiritual Jews.   Gal. 3:28 is not making that claim.   All it says is that in Christ, all of the social and ethnic barriers we have erected are abolished in Christ.   It is not claiming that everyone is a spiritual  Jew.  In fact, the very verses that you twist and pervert to support your false teaching actually argue against your claims.

 

Phil.3:1-3 is also not claiming that Gentiles are spiritual Jews.  There was a problem with Judaizers in the Philippian church which is why Paul warned them to beware of the "concision"  in verse 2.   These were mutilators of the flesh, as he called them, who believed that physical circumcision was necessary for salvation.   Paul in referring to believers as "the circumcision" is referring to those who worship God in the spirit and put no confidence in the flesh or earthly circumcision.   In verse 3 "circumcision" is not a metaphor for Jewishness, but refers to purity of heart before God.

 

Romans 9:6 isn't talking about Gentiles.   In context, it is drawing a distinction between  Jewish believers and those who are ethnically Jewish, but have rejected the Messiah.  Being ethnically Jewish doesn't mean that one is automatically a member of God's Kingdom.

 

Sorry, JohnDB, but your assertions are not based on a competent approach to Scripture, but are agenda based and I, for one, will not allow your false teaching any room to breathe.

[Qnts2]

Hmbld and Will,

 

Naysayers cannot refute Spirit Israel / Spirit Jew. 

 

They can only attack the messenger (me), or try to insult me or try to create arguments that [sound] legit but are not.

 

Shiloh says for example the Bible never uses the term spirit jew. Even after I repeatedly posted the following verses:

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

The distinction between being physically Jewish and spiritually Jewish goes as far back as...

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

Which is the only way this verse makes any sense...

 

Romans 9:6 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

Same old stuff over and over again. This has been explained so many times.

 

You neglect to think that at times, scripture is speaking to Jews/Israel. Scripture is saying that Jewish people are not saved simply because they are Jewish. Jewish people need to come to the Messiah and be born again.

 

It is interesting that you neglect or wish to ignore that Jewish people exist, and that scripture might be talking about the difference between born again Jewish believers and non-believing Jewish people. These verses do not say Gentiles become Jews.

 

Jewish people who come to Jesus, are still Jewish, but come to realize that the blessing given by God to those who come to Jesus so far surpass any blessing given to the children of Israel under the Mosaic covenant. God promised that Gentiles would come to the Messiah as Gentiles and fulfilled that promise. While most of the Jewish people are in a blinded state and are broken off branches, Gentiles are being blessed by God thru Jesus and have something so far greater, being called sons of God, new creations etc. It boggles my mind that some born again Gentiles do not seem to understand what they have received and seem to want to be Jewish/Israel.   

[Ezra]

Hi Will, I don't have your answer as I have never believed I became a Jew by believing in Jesus. But, I am interested in understanding this further, so I was hoping someone would answer you and include a strict definition of who is a Jew?  Thanks.  

No one becomes a Jew by believing in Jesus.  We should also be clear that the Israelites were Hebrews, and the term "Jew" was applied to Israel only after the Babylonian captivity and the "disappearance" of the 10 tribes.  "Jew" is Yehudi in Hebrew and applies to those belonging to Judah (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin).  However, in Romans 9-11 Paul speaks of "Israel" because God sees Israel as Israel in the future.

 

There is simply a lot of confusion because things are taken out of context.  Let's try and understand what Paul is really teaching about being "grafted" into an "olive tree", as well as the future of Israel as a redeemed and restored kingdom under Christ (during the Millennium and beyond).

 

1. The Church (redeemed Jews and ad Gentiles in one Body) is depicted as the spiritual "olive tree" into which believing Gentiles have been grafted (Rom 11:17).  [We should always keep in mind that Messiah came to Israel first, and the Gospel was always preached first to Jews and then to Gentiles. Study the book of Acts.]

 

2. Only those Jews whose hearts are "circumcised" (saved by grace through faith and obedient to God and to the Gospel) are in the "olive tree" (Rom 2:28,29).

 

3. The nation of Israel was chosen by God to bring Messiah into the world (Rom 9:1-5).

 

4. Not all in the nation of Israel are saved, or would be saved, but only those who were justified by faith, as was Abraham (Rom 9:6-13).

 

5. There has always been a believing "remnant" in Israel (Rom 9:27).

 

6. The Gentiles who have believed God and believed the Gospel receive imputed righteousness, which is by faith (Rom 9:30).

 

7. Those in Israel who have sought to attain righteousness by their Torah observance have failed to receive imputed righteousness (Rom 9:31-10:5).

 

8. Salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and only a few in Israel have exercised that faith, whereas many Gentiles have believed the Gospel and been saved (Rom 10:4-21).

 

9. God has not cast away the nation of Israel, which will consist of a believing remnant according to "the election of grace" (Rom 11:1-4).

 

10. The "natural" nation of Israel (apart from the believing remnant) rejected Christ and were therefore spiritually "blinded" (Rom 11:7-12).

 

11. While the majority of Jews were not saved, multitudes of Gentiles were saved (Rom 11:13-17).

 

12. That should not be a reason for Gentiles to boast about their salvation or their position in Christ, because the root of the Church is believing Jews (Rom 11:18-24).

 

13. There is a finite number of Gentiles who will come into the Church during the Church Age, and during that time God will not deal directly with Israel as Israel (Rom 11:25).  [At present God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and within the Church such distinctions do not exist, and should not exist.  Messianic Jews choose to isolate themselves and reject this truth.]

 

14. Once the Church is complete and raptured, the Lord Jesus Christ will begin to deal directly with Israel, and after "the time of Jacob's trouble" (the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation) the Lord will appear to Israel as their Deliverer (Rom 11:26-29).

 

15. When Paul says that "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED" we Gentiles need to believe it.  This salvation will also be by grace through faith.  God will gather all the Jews from all over world and bring them to Israel at the second coming of Christ.  They will all see Him physically, they will all mourn and repent, and they all will be saved. The details are found in the prophetic books.

 

16. There is a large segment of Christianity which believes that the Church has replaced Israel.  What Paul is teaching here is that God has a plan for the Church (in the New Jerusalem) and He also has a plan for redeemed and restored Israel (on earth).

[Qnts2]

 

Hi Will, I don't have your answer as I have never believed I became a Jew by believing in Jesus. But, I am interested in understanding this further, so I was hoping someone would answer you and include a strict definition of who is a Jew?  Thanks.  

No one becomes a Jew by believing in Jesus.  We should also be clear that the Israelites were Hebrews, and the term "Jew" was applied to Israel only after the Babylonian captivity and the "disappearance" of the 10 tribes.  "Jew" is Yehudi in Hebrew and applies to those belonging to Judah (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin).  However, in Romans 9-11 Paul speaks of "Israel" because God sees Israel as Israel in the future.

 

There is simply a lot of confusion because things are taken out of context.  Let's try and understand what Paul is really teaching about being "grafted" into an "olive tree", as well as the future of Israel as a redeemed and restored kingdom under Christ (during the Millennium and beyond).

 

1. The Church (redeemed Jews and ad Gentiles in one Body) is depicted as the spiritual "olive tree" into which believing Gentiles have been grafted (Rom 11:17).  [We should always keep in mind that Messiah came to Israel first, and the Gospel was always preached first to Jews and then to Gentiles. Study the book of Acts.]

 

2. Only those Jews whose hearts are "circumcised" (saved by grace through faith and obedient to God and to the Gospel) are in the "olive tree" (Rom 2:28,29).

 

3. The nation of Israel was chosen by God to bring Messiah into the world (Rom 9:1-5).

 

4. Not all in the nation of Israel are saved, or would be saved, but only those who were justified by faith, as was Abraham (Rom 9:6-13).

 

5. There has always been a believing "remnant" in Israel (Rom 9:27).

 

6. The Gentiles who have believed God and believed the Gospel receive imputed righteousness, which is by faith (Rom 9:30).

 

7. Those in Israel who have sought to attain righteousness by their Torah observance have failed to receive imputed righteousness (Rom 9:31-10:5).

 

8. Salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and only a few in Israel have exercised that faith, whereas many Gentiles have believed the Gospel and been saved (Rom 10:4-21).

 

9. God has not cast away the nation of Israel, which will consist of a believing remnant according to "the election of grace" (Rom 11:1-4).

 

10. The "natural" nation of Israel (apart from the believing remnant) rejected Christ and were therefore spiritually "blinded" (Rom 11:7-12).

 

11. While the majority of Jews were not saved, multitudes of Gentiles were saved (Rom 11:13-17).

 

12. That should not be a reason for Gentiles to boast about their salvation or their position in Christ, because the root of the Church is believing Jews (Rom 11:18-24).

 

13. There is a finite number of Gentiles who will come into the Church during the Church Age, and during that time God will not deal directly with Israel as Israel (Rom 11:25).  [At present God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and within the Church such distinctions do not exist, and should not exist.  Messianic Jews choose to isolate themselves and reject this truth.]

 

14. Once the Church is complete and raptured, the Lord Jesus Christ will begin to deal directly with Israel, and after "the time of Jacob's trouble" (the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation) the Lord will appear to Israel as their Deliverer (Rom 11:26-29).

 

15. When Paul says that "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED" we Gentiles need to believe it.  This salvation will also be by grace through faith.  God will gather all the Jews from all over world and bring them to Israel at the second coming of Christ.  They will all see Him physically, they will all mourn and repent, and they all will be saved. The details are found in the prophetic books.

 

16. There is a large segment of Christianity which believes that the Church has replaced Israel.  What Paul is teaching here is that God has a plan for the Church (in the New Jerusalem) and He also has a plan for redeemed and restored Israel (on earth).

 

 

I agree with everything you said, except for your definition of the current people called the Jews. Jews are descendents of Jacob. Jews and children of Israel are synonyms.

 

It is true that the use of the term Jew, began during Babylonian captivity, and was a term used first by the Babylonians to apply to the captives from Judea. Going back to the name of Judea, it was named for the largest tribe in that land, which was Judah, Yehudah. Yehudi, is translated as Jew. But, the people living in Judea included Judah, Benjamin and Levi, plus some of all of the other tribes. Before the scattering of the Northern Kingdom, some of all twelve tribes traveled to Jerusalem to celebrate various Holy days, and some stayed due to the corruption in the Northern Territory. When the Assyrians captured the Northern Kingdom, some escaped and went to live in Judea. So, from the beginning of captivity in Babylon, some of all 12 tribes were taken captive so all 12 tribes of taken captive from Judea were called Jews.

 

The term Jew, has been used since that captivity to apply to all 12 tribes. As the various tribes have been returning to Israel, including those who were scattered with the Assyrian captivity and did not escape to Judea, these various groups have begun using the term, Jew, to describe themselves. So, then and now, the term Jew, applies to members of all 12 tribes.

 

The rest of what you said I agree with, and you have outlined that very well.

[wingnut-]

If all Israel will be saved, why does Zechariah prophesy this?

 

Zechariah 13:“It will come about in all the land,”
Declares the Lord,
“That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
⁹ “And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

And why does Paul write this?

 

Romans 2:⁵ But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, ⁶ who will render to each person according to his deeds: ⁷ to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; ⁸ but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. ⁹ There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, ¹⁰ but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. ¹¹ For there is no partiality with God.

 

There is a very consistent message found within all the prophets, and that is when they speak of Israel in the last days, they speak of a remnant.

[Ezra]

If all Israel will be saved, why does Zechariah prophesy this?... There is a very consistent message found within all the prophets, and that is when they speak of Israel in the last days, they speak of a remnant.

I have simply quoted Scripture -- words given to Paul by the Holy Spirit -- and corroborated by other prophecies. And I have also mentioned the believing remnant above.  

 

So it may be possible to reconcile Zech 13 with "all Israel" by applying "all" to the believing remnant (which will amount to 1/3rd of those who went through the Great Tribulation) who will be saved at Christ's second coming.

 

But It will be a national salvation following a national deliverance at Armageddon, and therefore "All Israel". And yes, "Jew" would apply to anyone of those who are considered "Jacob" by God today. Only the Lord knows who they are.

[JohnD]

Well, so far the opposition to Spirit Israel and all who are in it is a big fat "nuh uh!"

 

Down through the ages mankind has plugged up their ears and covered their eyes and shouted "la la la la la la" at the tops of their lungs so as not to hear the truth. Even to the extremes of going to great lengths to "prove" there is no God.

 

"JohnD doen't know the Bible."

 

"JohnD just repeats this thinking it makes it true if he repeats it often enough."

 

"There's no such thing as Spirit Israel."

 

Etc. etc. etc.

 

Note well none are quoting scripture. And I have provided numerous scriptures time after time... ah, but that's repating myself isn't it?

 

I have updated my "interests" just under my icon. Does it ever apply here.

[JohnD]

This is to establish the fact that the text quoted in Jeremiah speaks of the New Covenant / New Testament now in effect.:

 

Hebrews 8 (NASB95)

¹Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

²a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

³For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.

⁴Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;

⁵who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”

⁶But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

⁷For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

⁸For finding fault with them, He says, “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

⁹Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care for them, says the Lord.

¹⁰“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.

¹¹“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ For all will know Me, From the least to the greatest of them.

¹²“For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more.”

¹³When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

 

Jeremiah 31:31–37 (NASB95)

³¹“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

³²not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

³³“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

³⁴“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

³⁵Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is His name:

³⁶“If this fixed order departs From before Me,” declares the Lord, “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.”

³⁷Thus says the Lord, “If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.

 

No mention of Gentiles, or the Church (the Assembly / ekklesia). Abraham is the father of nations. Jeremiah the prophet to the nations. Gentiles were in God's plans (first the Jew then the Gentile / Greek).

 

Rather glaring omission (if those of the New Covenant are not of the house of Israel which Romans 9:6 and Romans 2:28-29 establish is a spiriual house as opposed to the physical house of Israel)... isn't it?