The Heavenly Places

[Marilyn C]

The Heavenly Places.

 

I am now clarifying my thoughts here - `heavenly places,` `areas, realms.` I would like to discuss what God`s word says in relation to these areas, realms, places. And here are some questions that may arise as we look into this topic.

 

 

What are these?
Who is there?
Who has been there?
What has happened there?
What is happening there?
& What are we told will happen there?


So to start off this discussion I will give my thoughts on -`What are these heavenly places, areas, realms.` In God`s word we are told of different heavenly places, areas, realms.

From earth, there is the sky – the heaven above us where the birds fly, clouds move & rain falls, (the atmosphere around the earth). (James 5: 17)

Above that & still designated as the heavens is the celestial heavens where the other planets, stars, & comets etc move. (Gen. 1: 14 – 18)

These two areas, heavenly places, areas, realms, were as we know created by God, & we can read about that in Genesis ch.1.

Now prior to that creation of the Universe (with the celestial & atmospheric heavens) there was a designated area of God`s seat of power, His Throne in the Highest heavens.

`To Him who rides on the heaven of heavens, which were of old!.` (Ps. 68: 33)

The heaven of the heavens, plural. So there is a `heaven` beyond the celestial & atmospheric heavens I believe. This is where the angels & God`s throne is.

So what are your thoughts on this topic & how do you see (from God`s word) these `heavenly places, areas, realms.`

Looking forward to discussing with you all, Marilyn.


 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Let’s begin at the beginning:

 

Genesis 1:1-13

1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

KJV

 

Here’s the Hebrew (transliterated):

 

Bree’shiyt 1:1-13

1 Bree’shiyt baaraa’ Elohiym eet hashaamayim v’eet haa’aarets:

2 Vhaa’aarets haaytaah tohuw vaaVohuw vchoshekh `al pneey t-howm vruwach Elohiym mrachefet `al pneey hamaayim:

3 Vayo’mer Elohiym "Yhiy owr" vayhiy owr:

4 Vayar’ Elohiym et haa’owr kiy TowV vayaVdeel Elohiym beeyn haa’owr uwVeeyn hachoshekh:

5 Vayiqraa’ Elohiym laa’owr Yowm vlachoshekh qaaraa’ laaylaah vayhiy `ereV vayhiy boqer yowm echaad:

 

6 Vayo’mer Elohiym "Yhiy raaqiya` btowkh hamaayim viyhiy maVdiyl beeyn mayin laamaayim":

7 Vaya`as Elohim et haaraaiya` vayaVdeel beeyn hamayim asher mitachat laaraaqiya` uwVeeyn hamayim asher mee`al laaraaqiya` vayhiy keen:

8 Vayiqraa’ Elohiym laaraaqiya` “Shaamaayim" vayhiy `ereV vayhiy boqer yowm sheeniy:

 

9 Vayo’mer Elohiym "Yiqaawuw hamayim mitachat hashaamayim el maaqowm echaad vteeraa’eh hayabaashaah" vayhiy keen:

10 Vayiqraa’ Elohim layabaashaah Erets uwlmiqveeh hamayim qaaraa’ Yamiym vayar’ Elohiym kiy TowV:

11 Vayo’mer Elohiym "Tadshee’ haa’aarets deshe’ `eeseV mazriya` zera` `eets priy `oseh priy lmiynow asher zar`ow bow `al haa’aarets" vayhiy keen:

12 Vatowtsee’ haa’aarets deshe’ `eeseV mazriya` zera` lmiyneehuw v`eets `oseh priy asher zar`ow bow lmiyneehuw vayar’ Elohiym kiy TowV

13 Vayhiy `ereV vayhiy boqer yowm shliyshiy:

JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

 

Even if one doesn’t know Hebrew, one should be able to see that “shaamaayim” and “hashaamayim” (with the definite article “ha-“ attached) is the same in verse 1 as in verses 8 and 9.

 

Recognizing that vowels in Hebrew are not static but change with parts of speech and looking at the consonants, one should also be able to tell that “haa’aarets” (with the definite article “haa-“ attached) in verse 1 is also found in verses 2 (vhaa’aarets), 10 (Erets), and 11 (haa’aarets). (The “v-“ is the conjunction “and” attached in verse 2.)

 

Thus, verse 1 is a SYNOPSIS of the following verses, and the following verses describe the actions that were involved in “creating the heavens and the earth.” (While “erets” is singular, “shaamaayim” is always plural.) Thus, the “shaamaayim” were created on Day 2 (Yowm Sheeniy) and the “erets” was created on Day 3 (Yowm Shliyshiy). The Creation account in Genesis 1 and 2 is NOT about the Creation of the Universe; it’s the Creation of this earth and its skies. How and when God "created the Universe" is not discussed there except as an afterthought:

 

Genesis 1:14-19

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for

seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

KJV

 

The word “firmament” (Hebrew: “raaqiya`”) means an “expanse.” Gases expand. The firmament or the expanse was named by God “shaamaayim,” which are the “skies.” The “shaamaayim” were also those things which separated the waters under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse. These water above the expanse-called-“shaamaayim” are also what came crashing down for 40 days and 40 nights during Noach’s time:

 

Genesis 7:11-14

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven (Hebrew: hashaamayim) were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

KJV

 

The sluice gates of the Shaamaayim were opened and water “rained” POURED out of the skies, drowning all life on the surface of the ground! That was NOT just a "local flood," as some believe and teach! This was a GLOBAL KILLER! Movies and stories can be very misleading when they don’t follow GOD’S script! Those still living on the earth outside of the ark had NO time to try to get into the ark! They were IMMEDIATELY INUNDATED! The rain POURED from the skies for 40 days and 40 nights and didn’t stop until they had covered the tops of the tallest mountains by 22.5 feet (15 cubits if one assumes an 18-inch cubit)! How does one know this? Well, the Bible says it clearly in Genesis 7:19-20 and that the “ark" (a “box") was 30 cubits high. Apparently, this was the displacement of the water by this floating box! It was half submerged and didn’t scrape bottom ANYWHERE!

 

If one cannot accept GOD’S revelation of what happened, both in the Creation and in the Flood, then neither will they know what the “shaamaayim” were! Many things hinge upon these facts:

 

Exodus 20:8-11

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

KJV

 

Exodus 31:15-18

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

KJV

 

It’s no wonder that Christians seldom observe the Shabbat (Sabbath) of the LORD, if they cannot believe that the LORD God made the heaven  (Hebrew: hashaamayim) and the earth (Hebrew: haa’aarets) “in six days."

 

Yeshua` believed in the Genesis account of Creation for He said the following:

 

Matthew 19:3-6

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

KJV

 

This is a direct reference to Genesis 1:27 and 2:18-24.

 

Therefore, the “waters above the expanse-named-shaamaayim” were significantly depleted after the Flood, and most of the water was now below the expanse-named-shaamaayim. That works best if one realizes that these waters must have been significantly within the earth’s gravitational field! This lends credence to the fact that “shaamaayim” are the “SKIES,” the earth’s “ATMOSPHERE!"

 

Thus, Day 4 is talking about the LIGHT itself from the “celestial bodies!” Notice: The Scriptures do not say the “sun” (Hebrew: shemesh) and the “moon” (Hebrew: yaareeach) in the record of Day 4; they just mention the “greater light” (Hebrew: hamaa'owr hagaadol) and the “lesser light” (Hebrew: hamaa’owr haqaaTon)! Then, they say, "He made the stars (Hebrew: hakowkaaViym) also.” This word means “the round objects” or “the rolling objects.” So, if this word indicates the stars and planets, then he made the physical objects AFTER He created their light!

 

Add to this the phrase from Day 5’s creative acts,

 

Genesis 1:20-23

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

KJV

 

Where do we, in the wisdom of our modern sciences, know that the birds fly? So, what else could this “open firmament of heaven,” this “open expanse-called-shaamaayim” be?

 

Let’s stop there for now. More to come....

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Glad you could come & share your thoughts. Quite interesting. I will wait for you to post the rest before going on.

 

Marilyn.

[missmuffet]

Also known as "the heavenly realms" and we see this in Ephesians 1:3,20:2:6,3:10 and 6:12.We as flesh and blood humans have very little understanding of the Spirit world and that is where I will leave it.

[Marilyn C]

Thank you bopeep1909,

 

for your input. Yes not is much known, so we need to stick very close to what God has said (in His word) & what He wants us to know of His purposes through Christ for these areas.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Kan]

Retrobyter, has it in the bag when it comes to interpreting the scriptures.

 

I don't read Hebrew , and yet I get pretty much the same from the Bible in English. I use the KJV because it does not give itself a licence for embellishing or deleting, like other 'writings' such as the NKJV and the NIV.

 

God named what was to be considered "heaven" and "earth." Many so called creationists try to argue against science when they have not the right concepts of their own textbook. When it says heaven it means expanse among other things. The heavens is plural -simply numerous expanses or firmaments. When it says heaven of heavens, it is saying that heaven is part of them. Some people would like to speculate that it is another dimension. 

 

But the Bible never suggests that the realms of God are a fog of some sort, where disembodied spirits soar. heaven is a real physical place with properties that are comparable and compatible with earth. This is no mystery, because the last book in the Bible says that the city of God (heaven) comes down to earth.

 

Earth is restored to it's former glory when God created it. Not a spook world.

 

So the heaven into which Jesus ascended is a real physical world, where people eat real food without it dropping through, as Jesus ate with the disciples after His resurrection.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Kan,

 

I see you are in Aussie land also. And Queensland too, you are blessed. I`ve just come back from a great holiday there. Great place, great weather & great people. Now your thoughts are interesting & after Retro does his `to be continued,` I will reply to some of your comments.

 

Thanks for being in this discussion. Marilyn.

[Kan]

Inchrist, I agree with your take on "in" the firmament, which applies to all the solar system, being in it. And neither do I agree with a canopy of water around the earth as put forward by some creationists. But I have a lot in common with Retrobyter's approach.

 

The view of the firmament being an expanse, does lend itself to being stretched, beaten out, layered etc. The Bible commonly mentions the heavens being stretched out. 

It seems thought that, Marilyn C is eager to hear from Retrobyter and then get off the earth to the third heaven, so to speak.

Looking forward to it.

[Ezra]

The context defines "heavenly places" (literally heavenlies) and each time this term occurs (only in Ephesians), it is strictly associated with Christ, and with the throne of God and of Christ.  This term has nothing whatsoever to do with the first or second heavens, since the throne of God is in the "third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2).

 

1. All spiritual blessings are in the heavenlies.

2. The right hand of God is in the heavenlies, and Christ is seated there.

3. Believers sit together with Christ in the heavenlies.

4. Angelic principalities and powers are also in the heavenlies.

[Marilyn C]

Hi San,

 

Yes I can understand what you are saying concerning this topic being in the eschatology section. To my understanding the questions I posed at the start do include people`s different views of the end times, `What we are told will happen there.`

 

As to the didactic questioning, I will try & address that, if that is how I come across.

 

Marilyn.