Once Saved always Saved?

[Mark777]

It may be over for you but it is just starting for me. Your reading of Luther is minimal. Luther is saying that all that the Galatians have obtained and done is meaningless in the light of justification by the law. You do the same with Scripture. You do not consider all the things he says. One moment you say, "Hey ,they are flamboyant speakers." Then you forget about it. Luther is exaggerating for the purpose of making the point that maintaining salvation by works is against salvation by grace. As we will see in the other thread that I started, Luther fully believed that the new man is eternal and incorruptible. In the quote in question, he does not say that they had lost their salvation but the effects of the work they had done and the things they had suffered. "Even though we are faithless He is faithfull' - "I will lose nothing."

Mark

[Mark777]

Smalcald,

I can only refer to Scripture and my personal experience. I have already appealed to Scripture so I will answer you with what I know personally. God saved me while I was running the other direction. My experience changed me. I was not the same afterwards. I didn't understand all that my change entailed or of the complete power in Christ that had been given to meat first.

There is no way that I could deny Christ - if I fall into sin my mind would say, "I am a sinner Lord, forgive me." I could never say God was a phase. I have met Him. He has indwelt me. His spirit talks to me daily. I cannot deny His presence in me. Why would I reject Him? For what. The World? My goodness no, a thousand times no! I have been empowered by Him. I am free!! I can see myself from a lofty postion -that of Christ Himself. My old man is like a withering shell - I find it odious! My spirit longs for Christ and hates my flesh and its sin. What did Paul say, ".who will free me from the body of this death?"

I will repeat this endlessly: When one comes to Christ, they are changed. You do not belong to yourself - you have been bought with a price. You are His. And your new nature says, "AMEN, I AM HIS!"

People who listen to the word and accept it intellectually may go for some time enjoying the morality of it all. But then they turn and deny it - because it goes against the lusts of their flesh. The flesh glorifies itself - the spirit glorifies God. It cannot turn because it was born of God and is indwelt by God and kept by God. After true salvation WE ARE NOT THE SAME!

Smalcald, thanks for actually talking to me instead of at me.

Mark

Edited June 12, 2006 by Mark777

[Mark777]

Horizion,

If a car is on it makes noise. (usually.)

If someone is saved the y abide in me.

Your grammer is wrong. You are purposely limiting "if" to mean "if you keep abiding". You are wrong.

Mark

Edited June 11, 2006 by Mark777

[kjw47]

Horizion,

If a car is on it makes noise. (usually.)

If someone is saved the y abide in me.

Your grammer is wrong. You are purposely limiting "if" to mean "if you keep abiding". You are wrong.

Mark

Hi Friend, 1 corinthians 6: 9-11-- shows what true repentance is. at 11 it says that-- that is what some of you were.-- See its past tense, not what one does now, but he has repented and stopped practicing the sin. And as 1 John 3 points out-- not one true child of God practices sin. So as i stated before. There is not one mortal man that can tell another mortal man that he is saved, because a mortal man cannot see the true heart, or even know in most cases if that one practices sin.

[Mark777]

Butero,

I hope you do not mind me responding to you point by point. I think what you have brought up is important. I am sorry that I missed your post also in the fray.

Butero:

Edited June 11, 2006 by Mark777

[Mark777]

kjw47,

I agree but would add - "you will know them by their fruit."

Mark

[Mark777]

Horizion,

The trouble with you is that you furnish your own definitions for things regardless of what it might really be. For instance, "Shipwrecked" doesn't necessarily have to mean damnation. Paul suvived his shipwreck. Believers can become faithless but God will not allow it to stand. Even though we are faithless He is faithful... You are wrong about the use of the word "if". I furnished a sentence so you could see how it is used unconditional but is used to describe a condition. That is also an example of how you try to force things into this strict little bundle you are selling. You pick on these things but never answer the myriad of clear verses that I have brought up that say once you believe you have eternal life, and that when that happenes you are born again of incorruptible, unperishable seed, etc....So try responding with a little respect, instead of the disrespect you usually hand me, and I will answer you in a more complete way. For instance, I have talked to you alot about the things you bring up but you have hardly done the same. Try doing that for a few............

Mark

Edited June 11, 2006 by Mark777

[kjw47]

kjw47,

I agree but would add - "you will know them by their fruit."

Mark

Hi Mark777, Yes a very good point you have made. lets look at fruit. In Gods words we find that there is a table of demons and a table of God, wouldnt all agree that one cannot willfully partake of each and be considered to have good Fruits? Heres an excellent way to look at our religion and teachers to see if this fruit is there. Lies, false gods, ( direct from the table of demons ) am i correct? Santa claus ( an out and out lie ) from the table of demons, yet to the world a little white lie, but when God looks down and sees 2 billion people partaking of this lie and associating it with something that is a celebration to the son of God it has become huge. Cupid a false god created by the greeks ( the table of demons ) and then added by the world to a love celebration celebrated by many christians. Jesus said be no part of this world, so i say that a true teacher of God would pound it into the hearts and minds and souls of every christian they teach that one cannot possibly put the table of demons with the table of God, it is totally unacceptable to God or his son. And truly i tell you that if this has not been taught to one by his teacher( religion ) yet ( because it is simple milk from Gods word ) that they do not know God and God does not know them. Instead these types of teachers are there just to tickle ears, Gods word says that his words are sharper than a two edge sword. meaning that when one hears Gods truth it pierces the heart deeply. This world hates truth. God and his son hate with their whole heart soul and mind anything that has to do with the table of demons thus making it totally unacceptable. This is 100% truth.

[Openly Curious]

Thoughts to interject here that are puzzling me I do hope they belong in this thread if not throw em out.

Sovernity and freewill they do not co-exist nor do they or will they compliment each other in fact they will fight against one another causing conflict.

Free will is just that and it's a choice of my own preferences. It does not have to be reconciled with anything or else it wouldn't be free would it.

The sustaining part of hope isn't in being secure

now i don't care about the debate part here but the security it seems one has "in" Christ is what "enables" you to live through this stinky life on earth with all it's evils. That 'hope' is 'in Christ' alone.

The freewill is my choice and no security will take that away for this I'm sure. No one else in this world or the world to come can put a harness upon it then say I'm "secure" no one has a hold over us in this realm of things. I have freedom of choice and in that no one can be "secure" thou one may always choose the straight and narrow as long as their is freedom of choice available you can always choose the wrong way and that is any thing but "secure"

Christ gave me freedom and set me free from slavery and bondage. I was not free before my will was taken captive by sin and I had no choice for I was a prisoner imprisoned by Satan. But through Christ I have my freewill restored once again to choose what I want to do serve Christ or serve the devil for God does not imprison us to serve Him like Satan done to us. But Christ set us free from slavery and restored out freedom of choice back unto us. But this being the case my freewill is not at all "secure" in Christ for something up ahead may cause me to stumble and fall and I may choose to not get back up so my freewill can cause me still to loose out if not careful.

My "hope" in Christ and being and staying "IN CHRIST" is my security and it is conditional with no other option.

these are my thoughts no expert here as I have my own personal struggles with all that is being debated so I thought what would it hurt if I through my mix of thoughts and own meditations of heart into the pot.

Openly Curious

[Mark777]

Hey Openly,

Let me give you something to think about. Christ came because we were lost to sin. We could not save ourselves through good works. That to me is not freedom but slavery. After Christ came, and if we have accepted Christ, the Bible says that we are slaves to righteousness. We are free from sin but slaves to righteousness in that we have done away with the other alternative sin. So, if we have free will - what is the choice that we are free to make? We cannot freely come to Christ - the Bible says the Father has to draw us to Him. We cannot lose our salvation because it is said to be eternal. We cannot be righteous in ourselves because we have a sin nature. we cannot be corrupted after salvation because the Bible says we are incorruptible. What place does choice have in it?

Mark

Edited June 12, 2006 by Mark777