Why is faith without works dead?

[Guest shiloh357]

The context of James is about justification in the sight of others.   James admonishes his readers, "Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works."  That sets the context for James discussion about justification.   James is not talking about the doctrine of justification by faith.   He is using justification in the sense of "affirmation."   And he is talking about how true faith will always be affirmed by corresponding action.

 

Sorry, bcbsr...   But a genuine follower of Jesus doesn't deny the authority of the Word of God and that includes the book of James.  The stuff you teach is not authentic, NT Christianity.   True Christians will reject your teachings.

[Ezra]

 First of all James doesn't say "in the sight of others".

So in your opinion a writer is not allowed to imply something.  He must either state it explicitly or it is invalid?  Look at the context and see that James is indeed implying "in the sight of others".  Notice carefully (Jas 2:18):  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.  Here is one man addressing another man and saying "I will show thee my faith by my works".  Is this in the sight of others or not?  So you can see that James does not have to say this explicitly, since it is implicit in the context.

So was Abraham's faith dead until Gen 22? Was Abraham saved by dead faith prior to that?

Already answered. In God's eyes Abraham was justified the moment he believe God, and his faith was very much alive because it went on to produce obedience.  When you analyze the sacrifice of Isaac, it was technically not even a "work".  It was the INTENT of Abraham to obey God at the cost of his son, and that is all that mattered.

 

BTW faith in itself does not accomplish anything.  It is God, the grace of God, and the finished work of Christ that gives any meaning to faith.  Faith is simply believing God. 

 

[bcbsr]

 

As you will note in Paul's epistles Abraham was justified (saved) in the sight of God the moment he believed God.  He was the justified in the sight of others when he offered up Isaac (as noted by James). What he did externally was evidence of what was already accomplished internally.

 

 

 

So genuine faith and genuine salvation will be followed by genuine good works (or obedience as in the case of Abraham).  These are also God's works, since God works in the believer both to will and to do of His good pleasure. 

 

If there are no good works, then that faith was not genuine to begin with.  If a person says that he has been saved, but adamantly refuses to be baptized as a believer, it is very likely that that faith was not genuine.

 

 

First of all James doesn't say "in the sight of others". Rather he speaks of Gen 15:6 being fulfilled when he offered Isaac. Gen 15:6 isn't speaking of being justified "in the sight of others". Paul uses it in Romans 4 to indicate it is speaking of being justified in the sight of God. Furthermore in saying "If there are no good works, then that faith was not genuine to begin with:", aren't you saying that Abraham's faith was not genuine until Gen 22? Indeed James is saying that Abraham's faith was dead until Gen 22.

 

So was Abraham's faith dead until Gen 22? Was Abraham saved by dead faith prior to that?

 

 

Here's what the verses actually say, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God."

 

So are you denying that James is saying that Gen 15:6 wasn't fulfilled until Gen 22? Because that's what he's ACTUALLY SAYING.  Much as you can ignore what he says, I don't take your analysis as an honest evaluation of the text seeing as you haven't dealt with what the text ACTUALLY SAYS. So are you saying that the "accounted to him for righteousness" phrase in Gen 15:6 means "justified in the eyes of men"? Because that's not how Paul interprets that phrase. Do you not agree with Paul's interpretation of Gen 15;6. Or are you simply going to ignore the original question regarding Gen 15:6? 

 

Now as for "saved" James also speaks of "saved". Apparently you overlooked the fact that James also said, "if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" So the larger context indicates he's talking about SALVATION.  You say, " in Paul's epistles Abraham was justified (saved) in the sight of God the moment he believed God." But James indicates that Abraham was not saved the moment he believed God. James indicates Abraham wasn't saved until Gen 22, many years later, prior to which his faith was dead. For though he had faith he had no works. And James says, "Faith without works is dead". Thus, according to James Abraham's faith was dead from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22. 

 

Do you agree with James, or do you agree with Paul?

Edited June 10, 2015 by bcbsr

[bcbsr]

Sorry, bcbsr...   But a genuine follower of Jesus doesn't deny the authority of the Word of God and that includes the book of James.  The stuff you teach is not authentic, NT Christianity.   True Christians will reject your teachings.

 

So you're saying that as you take whatever James says as the Word of God, and as you reject was James ACTUALLY SAYS, you're saying that you're not a true Christians, not a genuine follower of Jesus. Have you really thought the through? The fact that you're avoiding dealing with what James ACTUALLY SAYS, as I have pointed out, speaks for itself. 

[Guest shiloh357]

That is complete nonsense.   YOU are the one who is not dealing with what James actually says.   I correctly exegeted James' comments.   I believe that James is as much a part of Scripture as any other book of the Bible.  

Edited June 11, 2015 by shiloh357
Personal Attack Removed

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, bcbsr, Ezra, and shiloh357.

 

Peace to all of you. The simple answer is that “salvation” is NOT THE SAME THING as “justification by God.” The term “salvation” in the Scriptures is about “RESCUE” or “DELIVERANCE,” and it usually refers to the rescue of His people when the Messiah returns to earth. The term for a right relationship with God is “JUSTIFICATION (by God)!” ONLY GOD can step in and do for us what we cannot hope to accomplish for ourselves.

 

Also, “faith” is “TRUST" and that is "TRUST IN GOD AND HIS POWER!"

 

“Trust” does nothing by itself. However, when one TRUSTS GOD - that is, he or she RELIES UPON GOD to do what only HE can do and trusts Him that He WILL do it for him or her because He loves him or her - it is GOD’S power that truly accomplishes anything!

 

Any works that one does while trusting God are merely the EVIDENCE that he or she trusts God! It’s "putting feet" to the thing that’s invisible! Anyone can say, “I trust God,” but only one who then demonstrates that trust PROVES that he or she trusts God. It’s not about to whom he or she is proving it; it’s about the verb “to prove!” Sometimes, the context may be talking about “to others,” but sometimes it’s about proving it “to God!” God declares the end from the beginning; therefore, He knows the end from the beginning; however, He doesn’t count it as having happened until it indeed happens. It’s like Peter stepping out of the boat.

 

When Peter said, “Lord, if it’s really you, offer for me to come out on the water with you,” and Yeshua` said, “Come on!” Peter got out of the boat! He may have had second thoughts afterward that gave him misgivings about his action, but at least he acted in the first place! Yeshua` said that he was one of “little faith!" That was his first time trying to ride the bicycle, so to speak! Ironically, he was the first to “get his feet wet!” 

 

It’s not exactly a “work” per se, but when one steps out of his seat and comes down to the mourner’s bench, that act is a step of faith that demonstrates his or her acknowledgement of need! It’s a PROOF that he or she is coming to God to fill that need!

 

When Avram heard ...

 

Genesis 17:19

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

KJV

 

And later, he heard ...

 

Genesis 22:2

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

KJV

 

He didn’t know what God was planning to do, but he knew that he could trust God; so, he did as he was ordered, even to the point of taking the knife!

 

Genesis 22:10-18

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

KJV

 

The “salvation” in this account was partially skipped. Let’s go back and see it now:

 

Genesis 22:7-9, 13

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

..

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

KJV

 

God stepped into the scene and provided the lamb/ram for a burnt offering. THAT was the “rescue!” THAT was the “deliverance!” THAT was the “SALVATION!” That “stepping in” and “providing” was the “salvation!” The justification of God, on the other hand, was when God DECLARED Avram as “righteous":

 

Genesis 15:1-6

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

KJV

 

As I said, the two terms are NOT synonymous!

[bcbsr]

 

 

James seems to get it backwards where he associates faith with the body and works with the spirit. Faith is an attitude internal to the person. It should be analogous to the spirit of a man, while works are outward and should be associated with the body. Because James is trying to make an analogy about that which he is incorrect, the associates of his analogy make no sense. He's trying to say that faith without works is dead, and so he does the same mishandling scripture with regards to Gen 15:6, claiming it's merely a predication, a prophecy, not fulfilled until Gen 22 when Abraham offered Isaac. Yet in Romans 4 Paul says the Gen 15:6 was fulfilled immediately in Gen 15:6, proving that justification is by faith apart from works, contrary to James.

 

Now if we use the correct analogy

faith = spirit

works = body

We would say that works without faith is dead. That is  ":whatever is not from faith is sin." Rom 14:23b 

 

Paul's view is diametrically opposed to the view of James. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can this really be within a truly born again believer? I surely think so. I think we can get so tossed about, so beaten, so abused and confused, that our faith can be present within us, surely...but nowhere near the surface of our lives... yet... there is always "evidence"... but it can maybe only be known by the person that has it. Only they can tell you of what they have WANTED to do to lash out, get vengeance, revenge... how they've TRIED to HATE other people... yet their faith would not let them go down that path in their hearts....all because of the "faith" within them. So is it really dead, as in non-existent? Not hardly. But when under extreme duress, it can be very hard, or impossible for others to see.

 

Now in the life of a "normal" Christian, not under too much strain, keeping their focus constantly on Christ, continually enjoying more blessing in life than trials or persecutions, it is alot easier for that faith to surface and even be spread about among others, making it very easy to see and maybe even impossible to ignore.

 

Even under the most extreme duress, it is possible for faith to abound, for people to remain humble, to love others and express all the fruits of the Spirit. I'm not saying hardship is an "excuse" to bury one's faith. I'm just saying that sometimes...people get confused.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

That is nothing but false teaching and sloppy theology.  

[FresnoJoe]

Sorry, bcbsr...   But a genuine follower of Jesus doesn't deny the authority of the Word of God and that includes the book of James.  The stuff you teach is not authentic, NT Christianity.   True Christians will reject your teachings.

 

So you're saying that as you take whatever James says as the Word of God....

and as you reject was James ACTUALLY SAYS....

you're saying that you're not a true Christians....

not a genuine follower of Jesus....

 

 

Actually Beloved, Faith Without Love (Action)

 

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6 (NIV)

 

Is Dead

 

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

 

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 

Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? James 2:17-21 (NIV)

 

~

 

Dear One, Is Your Faith Dead?

 

The wicked have set their traps for me, but I will not turn from your commandments. Psalms 119:110 (NLT)

 

Have You No Love For The Words Of God?

 

"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Proverbs 30:5 (NIV)

 

Dear One Believe~! Believed And Be Very Blessed~!

 

The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety. Psalm 18:2 (NLT)

 

Love, Joe

[FresnoJoe]

Paul's view is diametrically opposed to the view of James.

 

 

Paul's View

 

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6 (NIV)

 

"Dove" Tails Precisely Into James's View

 

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:17 (NIV)

 

And Why Not I Ask, For They Have

 

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (ESV)

 

The Very Same Author

 

For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:21 (NIV )