Joshua-777 Posted May 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 I didn't say we should not get out doctrine out of what Jesus taught. I am saying that Matt. 17 isn't a doctrinal passage. It is a narrative. It is telling us a sequence of events. People wrongly take passages like that make a doctrine out of it which is why we have people today thinking, "if Jesus did it for that person, He will do it for me." And then they end up shipwrecked and disappointed when Jesus doesn't heal them. Anyone can string a bunch of verses together like lights on a Christmas tree and make the Bible say what they want it to say. Many of those passages are saying what you appear to be assigning to them. Yes we can ask anything in Name and he will do it, but that is conditional. The operative phrase is, "in his name." It isn't a blank check. And it has to be according to his will, and it means we have to know his will in order to pray in agreement with it. Again, there is no promise from God that healing is always his will. Just like there is nothing in the Bible says we can speak to the weather and stop storms and such. "I didn't say we should not get out doctrine out of what Jesus taught. I am saying that Matt. 17 isn't a doctrinal passage". Except for the fact they asked why and Jesus answered them with a similar answer to what he had been teaching them when He withered the tree, and also many other times. Unbelief is a major reason for not seeing breakthrough. That is clear from scripture. Also the fact that story is repeated in each Gospel with the same lesson, may be we should take it in greater concideration. Mark 6:5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching. I agree we are to know His will and when we pray according to His will, it happens. The fact that we are to pray for His Kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven shows that His will is not always done on earth. His manifests His will through often the surrender of our will. His will is His Kingdom to come, and when His Kingdom comes, the darkness is thrown down, sickness is healed, and the broken get restored. Healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead is a demonstration of the Kingdom of God, which is at hand and also is to come in it's fullness. Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. Matthew 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power. "Just like there is nothing in the Bible says we can speak to the weather and stop storms and such." Actually changing weather is an example for the fervent prayer of a righteous man, and also Jesus said we would do the same works He did. Check out the other tornado video I posted. James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. With sickness, there is no sickness in the fullness of His Kingdom, so we are to come against it here. It came in through sin and sickness kills steals and destroys, Jesus came that we may have life more abundantly. Sickness and disease is a distortion of God's creation and an enemy against humanity. John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. Acts 10:8 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him Again, there is no promise from God that healing is always his will. You say that God never promises to heal, but He does. Psalm 103:Bless the Lord, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits: 3 Who forgives all your iniquities,Who heals all your diseases, Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. James 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven Now one of the issues is trusting God when you don't see breakthrough. That is something, regardless of the results we are to trust and believe that God is good. I don't believe God sends the storm but sometimes He will use the storm to take us to the end of ourselves. A perfect example is Paul's thorn in his flesh. The issue wasn't just some sickness that went away but a plague of tribulation, persecution, may be even sickness but that was for a reason that he may come into complete reliance on the power of God. 2 Corinthians 1:8 For we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of our trouble which came to us in Asia: that we were burdened beyond measure, above strength, so that we despaired even of life. 9 Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, 2 Corinthians 12:9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Jesus teaching his disciples in Matt. 17 is not doctrine for us. There is no doctrine for healing/miracles/signs and wonders in Scripture. Those things happened but were for the purpose of confirming Jesus' message and later the authority of the apostles. The authority they possessed was not passed down to us today. Healing and miracles that occur today occur within the context of God sovereign will not on the basis of our faith. Too bad all of these "fervent" praying people can't seem to deal stop the adverse weather that is the cause for droughts and famine. Too bad they can't stop adverse conditions that affect CA. Too bad they didn't use their faith to stop Katrina or the 2004 Tsunami. I didnt' say that God never promises to heal. I said that the Bible doesn't say that healing is always God's will. Paul's thorn in the flesh was some kind of physical malady that was the result of the vision that Paul had of heaven, according to Scripture it was given to him to keep him from becoming conceited over the visions he had seen. It was not the persecution Paul faced. Paul was never healed of that malady. He relied on the power of God to sustain him in spite of the thorn, not for its removal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted May 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,994 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,692 Content Per Day: 11.75 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2015 I have seen people pray for years to get healed and it never happens. I have seen people who were not expecting to get healed suddenly get healed of diabetes, cancer... I have an uncle who was in stage IV liver cancer and within a week it was gone. He wasn't praying for it to get removed; he was just praying for the grace to endure it to the end. So God heals those who were not expecting it and he doesn't heal those who were believing for healing. So this stuff about people who don't get healed didn't ask for healing or believe for it is false. There are countless examples that disprove any such claims. It is not always God's will to heal people and I know a lot of folks who bought into that doctrinal clap trap who ended up losing family members to diseases when everyone was praying including the person needing the healing. The passage in Matt 17 is not doctrinal. To take a passage like that and try to make a doctrine and assume that Jesus did in the Bible is what he will do today is presumptuous at best. Narratives are stories and a recollection of recorded events. It is really, really bad when we start assuming that what happened then is what will happen now, if we just have enough faith. A lot of people have bought into that and a lot of people have been disappointed in the end when they didn't get healing they believed for. Well said shiloh,I agree 100%.When we ask God for His will to be done in our lives He will give us what we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted May 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Jesus teaching his disciples in Matt. 17 is not doctrine for us. There is no doctrine for healing/miracles/signs and wonders in Scripture. Those things happened but were for the purpose of confirming Jesus' message and later the authority of the apostles. The authority they possessed was not passed down to us today. The disciples were to teach their disciples to observe all things Jesus commanded them. Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Those things happened but were for the purpose of confirming Jesus' message and later the authority of the apostles. The authority they possessed was not passed down to us today. Healing and miracles that occur today occur within the context of God sovereign will not on the basis of our faith. Actually, I can post verse after verse contradicting this statement. In order to hold tight to this, you would have to contradict and make obsolete many things Jesus promised and taught. There is no passage in scripture that even hints to this. It appears that you hold to cessationism, that the gifts have ceased, but there is no where in scripture to back up this claim. Paul's thorn in the flesh was some kind of physical malady that was the result of the vision that Paul had of heaven, according to Scripture it was given to him to keep him from becoming conceited over the visions he had seen. It was not the persecution Paul faced. Paul was never healed of that malady. He relied on the power of God to sustain him in spite of the thorn, not for its removal. It was a demon to buffet him. Meaning, come agaisnt him. The chapter prior he went through a long list of the things he has suffered, and starts the letter out with the premise of God taking him to the end of Himself. Too bad all of these "fervent" praying people can't seem to deal stop the adverse weather that is the cause for droughts and famine. Too bad they can't stop adverse conditions that affect CA. Too bad they didn't use their faith to stop Katrina or the 2004 Tsunami. Instead of rejoicing in the testimony of the Lord you are bashing them for what God hasn't done through them. Atheists love to do this too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted May 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,994 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,692 Content Per Day: 11.75 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2015 Jesus teaching his disciples in Matt. 17 is not doctrine for us. There is no doctrine for healing/miracles/signs and wonders in Scripture. Those things happened but were for the purpose of confirming Jesus' message and later the authority of the apostles. The authority they possessed was not passed down to us today. The disciples were to teach their disciples to observe all things Jesus commanded them. Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Those things happened but were for the purpose of confirming Jesus' message and later the authority of the apostles. The authority they possessed was not passed down to us today. Healing and miracles that occur today occur within the context of God sovereign will not on the basis of our faith. Actually, I can post verse after verse contradicting this statement. In order to hold tight to this, you would have to contradict and make obsolete many things Jesus promised and taught. There is no passage in scripture that even hints to this. It appears that you hold to cessationism, that the gifts have ceased, but there is no where in scripture to back up this claim. Paul's thorn in the flesh was some kind of physical malady that was the result of the vision that Paul had of heaven, according to Scripture it was given to him to keep him from becoming conceited over the visions he had seen. It was not the persecution Paul faced. Paul was never healed of that malady. He relied on the power of God to sustain him in spite of the thorn, not for its removal. It was a demon to buffet him. Meaning, come agaisnt him. The chapter prior he went through a long list of the things he has suffered, and starts the letter out with the premise of God taking him to the end of Himself. Too bad all of these "fervent" praying people can't seem to deal stop the adverse weather that is the cause for droughts and famine. Too bad they can't stop adverse conditions that affect CA. Too bad they didn't use their faith to stop Katrina or the 2004 Tsunami. Instead of rejoicing in the testimony of the Lord you are bashing them for what God hasn't done through them. Atheists love to do this too. Are you calling shiloh an atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted May 28, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,263 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,991 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2015 It doesn't look like it to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted May 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Are you calling shiloh an atheist? No, I'm saying the tactic of mocking is something I see alot of atheists do. For example, I've had many times where they will hear testimonies of people getting healed through witnessing and then cuss me out and say "Why don't you empty out the hospitals." It's sad when believers do this. Too bad all of these "fervent" praying people can't seem to deal stop the adverse weather that is the cause for droughts and famine. Too bad they can't stop adverse conditions that affect CA. Too bad they didn't use their faith to stop Katrina or the 2004 Tsunami. These kind of statements mock faith in God and those who believe God actually intervenes through the prayers of believers. This is also placing the blame on them for disasters that have happened and are going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted May 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,994 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,692 Content Per Day: 11.75 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2015 Are these considered signs and wonders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted May 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Are these considered signs and wonders? Signs and wonders, yes. That's what the bible often refers to them as. Acts 4:30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted May 28, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Knowledge Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. Luke 6:26-28 Is A Gift Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Luke 6:36 ~ God heals based solely on his sovereign will to do so. My faith doesn't impact that. My faith relates to this solely on the basis that my faith in God resides in the knowledge that he wants the best for me and that he has a greater purpose in not healing me. He sees the big picture and there are sick people God uses to show his power through in ways that healing them never would have shown. Real faith is seen when you can still love and trust God when he doesn't fix everything, when the healing never comes, when you have to walk through the dark times in life. Is Jesus enough without anything else? That's the real test of faith. It's walking in the knowledge that even if you don't get healed, Jesus is enough. Beloved, When Jesus Is Enough Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:3-4 Men Walk In Love But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23 And Power Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:12 I Think Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Matthew 10:8 ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts