Guest Butero Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 What do you BCBSR say to someone who claims Paul is the false teacher and his writings don't belong in scripture? What of those who reject story of Jesus calling Paul in Acts? What if we are saved by works and not by faith? If you are going to start attacking part of the canon, that opens the door to reject the teachings of Paul. You haven't answered that question, and you cannot answer that question. The best you are going to be able to do when such a challenge comes your way is say that you reject James and accept Paul, while the other person says they reject Paul and accept James and you are at a stalemate. There are people that do teach Paul is a false teacher and none of his books belong in scripture, so that is not something I just dreamed up. It is something people teach. I reject both your attack on James and their attack on Paul, and see you both as false teachers, along with Martin Luther who is also a false teacher. I reject all of you, and don't believe any of you have one shred of credibility in your attacks on the canon. Now what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted May 24, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,657 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2015 As I tried to state before, believe is an action verb. Abraham BELIEVED (with actions) God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. But it is by grace (unmerited favor) that we are saved through Faith. And that not of yourselves; it is a GIFT of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in God for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk therein. To me there is no conflict. We are saved by the gift of faith. We are accounted as righteous by the good works produced by believing God. A birthday gift must be received and opened, and then used. If it is ignored and never claimed as our own, not believing it is ours, what is it to us? Having neglected so great a salvation we shall not escape, right? Heb. 2:1-3 We err in judging the works. Each of us is accountable to his own Master. One obeys with restitution and another obeys by baptism. As long as we obey in some measure, walking according to the Spirit, is all that matters. One only confessed, Lord, remember me when you come into Your kingdom. But he was given faith and believed, acting on that faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible2 Posted May 24, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 642 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 405 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2015 Butero said in post 11: There are people that do teach Paul is a false teacher and none of his books belong in scripture, so that is not something I just dreamed up. That's right, and those who reject Paul are making a serious mistake. For the basis for Paul's theology is direct revelation to him from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12). That is why his theology is in accord with what the Old Testament foretold (Acts 26:22-23), with what the New Testament Gospels describe (Matthew 16:21, Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and with what the other writings in the New Testament say (2 Peter 3:15-16). The basis for Paul's authority, his being an apostle of Jesus (1 Corinthians 9:1), is his being an eyewitness of Jesus (1 Corinthians 9:1) and receiving his ministry directly from Jesus (Acts 26:16-18, Acts 9:10-22). When the other apostles saw how greatly Jesus worked through Paul, they accepted him as a fellow apostle (Galatians 2:9, Acts 14:14). Peter even expressly wrote to believers confirming that all of Paul's epistles are from God, are scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). There is no reason to reject Paul's apostolic authority (1 Corinthians 14:36-37). His faithful work on behalf of Jesus proves he is not a false apostle (Matthew 7:16-18). And after his conversion, Paul fulfilled many of the signs spoken of by Jesus regarding true believers (Mark 16:17-18, Acts 19:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:18, Acts 28:3-5, Acts 28:8). Also, because of the wonderful example of Saul the persecutor becoming Paul the apostle (1 Timothy 1:12-17), believers should never give up on any unbelievers, no matter how hostile they are to Christians and the Christian faith. Instead, believers should keep sharing the gospel with them (Luke 5:30-32; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and keep praying for them that God would miraculously save their souls (2 Timothy 2:25, Ephesians 2:8, Colossians 1:21-23). And because of the example of Saul becoming Paul, those who have persecuted Christians and reviled the Christian faith in the past, but now feel God's gifts of repentance and faith (2 Timothy 2:25, Ephesians 2:8) moving within them, shouldn't think that what they have done against Christians and the Christian faith (whether in word or deed) in the past disqualifies them from being able now to repent and ask God's forgiveness, and to receive his salvation through their faith in Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:21-22). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 That is right, and it is also just as true that those who are rejecting the teachings of James are heretics. In both cases, whether they are rejecting the writings of Paul or James, they are rejecting part of the canon of scripture. Once you go down that road, all your scripture references mean nothing, because the people bringing the attack on them are questioning whether or not the canon is correct. That would mean they will reject your references as valid because they don't accept them as scripture, as the OP is doing with the book of James. I believe the entire 66 books of the Biblical canon are all the Word of God. You don't have to convince me of that, but apparently, a false teacher named Martin Luther rejected the book of James, and the person who started this thread is a follower of the false teacher Martin Luther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted May 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2015 According to Romans 4, when did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 fulfilled? According to James 2, when did James reckon Gen 15:6 fulfilled? Yes, it is easy. Did Abraham just believe in the Lord, or did he have to do something to show his faith? It would do you well to read Genesis 22 and see what was said to him. You seem to ignore the fact that if we do have faith, we will produce works. Our works prove our faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By Faith Posted May 24, 2015 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 110 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 24, 2015 The book of James draws its authority from the fact that it is inspired Scripture and is recognized by the church as such. That James was not an apostle does not devalue the text as inspired, inerrant and infallible Scripture. My explanation of James is based on the overall context of James. I am not attempting to add words to the text that are not there. I am interpreting parts of the text in the light of overall context and the object that James has in view. James is not talking about how we are saved. So James is not trying to make the case that salvation is based on faith and works. James is, among other things, a practical guide for life in the Christian community. If you place more faith in the words of Martin Luther than in inspired Scripture, perhaps you should worship him instead. I don't recognize James as scripture. If you think everything in the Bible is scripture, then you must believe the Bible when it says, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Acts 15:1 Is that right? The Bereans were commended when scrutinizing even Paul's teachings, "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:11 Even Paul himself said, "even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:8 Paul proved himself by his testimony affirmed by an eye witness as to has apostleship. He was also affirmed by miraculous signs as was expected of an apostle, "Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds." 2Cor 12:12 And what he said was consistent with what was already written and with the other apostles. James fails on these points. Even James, as a teacher says, "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." Jas 3:1 James himself admits he should be subject to scrutiny. But shiloh is saying that if I agree with Martin Luther on his point, I am therefore worshipping Martin Luther. Are you saying you worship James? The arm waving, grasping at straws and anti-Berean type of responses while typical are shameful. While many have put words into the mouth of James, who out there is willing to deal with what James ACTUALLY said. Try this. This should be easy: According to Romans 4, when did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 fulfilled? According to James 2, when did James reckon Gen 15:6 fulfilled? You don't see James as Scripture, or valid. It's sort of like coming here and quoting "May the Force be With You." then trying to tell us there is a Force because StarWars said there was a Force, and it's scriptural. Whatever you want to believe, becomes scripture in your thinking. And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Act 15:1-2) I am not sure what your point was about this scripture though. What does it have to do with James? Yes, I believe every word of it. Faith without corresponding action is dead. What if you don't go up and proclaim Jesus or even mention Him as your Lord? What if they did not march around Jericho? What if Naaman did not wash in the river he was told, but just kept complaining about it. What if Paul after preaching and knowing a man had faith to be healed, did not tell the man to rise up and walk. The faith was already there to be healed, but he was not walking yet. What if the 10 thought Jesus was crazy when He said go show yourself to the priest still full of leprosy and said heck with that. What if the Women with issue of blood saying if I just touch his garment, I will be healed, but she never left the house. James is the Word of God. There is nothing in James that counters any other scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted May 25, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted May 25, 2015 According to Romans 4, when did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 fulfilled? ~ Beloved, According To Dear Brother Paul And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. Genesis 15:6 (NLT) It Was When Abraham Believed For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith." Romans 4:3 (NLT) ~ According to James 2, when did James reckon Gen 15:6 fulfilled? ~ Beloved, According To Dear Brother James And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. Genesis 15:6 (NLT) It Was When Abraham Believed And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith." He was even called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NLT) ~ And As For These Dear Jews Who's Words Daily Mentor And Encourage Me Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision? Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God. Romans 3:1-2 (NLT) I Give My LORD And My God Thanksgiving Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews John 4:22 (KJV) For His Precious “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,f you were doing it to me!’ Matthew 25:37-40 (NLT) Brothers Love, Your Brother Joe ~ The All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV) Book All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. Psalms 119:160 (NIV) Above All Books I bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. Psalms 138:2 (ESV) The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword, and the Christian’s character. Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed. CHRIST is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment and will be remembered forever. It Involves the highest responsibility, will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents. From The Front Of My Gideon New Testament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 25, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Hi bcbsr, You said - James means what he says, and Paul means what he says. The two views are irreconcilable. Irreconcilable –inconsistent, incompatible..... We know that the Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible & we also know that He is not the author of confusion. He is not a liar or confused. Thus said it is obviously US who need to look more carefully into His word.1. James. `What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?....Show me your faith without your works, & I will show you my faith by my works..... Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?......` (James 2: 14 -26) In Hebrews ch. 11 we read of more people who were justified by works of righteousness.`...who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises,.....& all these, having obtained a good report through faith...` (Heb. 11: 33 & 39) Thus we read that these people believed God & obeyed what He asked them to do. Their faith was real & their works – obedience to God`s specific tasks, is proof of that.2. Paul. `Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace.....He (Abraham) did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, & being fully convinced that, what he had promised he was also able to perform. And therefore, “it was accounted to him for righteousness.” (Rom. 4: 16 & 20 – 22) Paul also uses the example of Abraham to show that it is faith without works. However the `works` here that Paul refers to is the `Law,` & NOT acts of righteousness that God has specifically asked that person to do trusting Him. `For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void & the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; ......` (Rom. 4: 14) Both James & Paul are talking of faith, however the `works` part is the difference. We don`t do the Law, or just any good thing we think of but what the Holy Spirit directs us to do in obedience to Christ. One brother is talking of the `works of righteousness` that God directs, & the other brother is saying that keeping the `works of the law,` is not of faith. Thus the author, the Holy Spirit is giving us a great picture of faith in Christ leading to obedience of the Holy Spirit & not the Law. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcbsr Posted May 27, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 415 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 606 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 353 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 ... We know that the Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible & we also know that He is not the author of confusion. He is not a liar or confused. Bible also says, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Acts 15:1. And the Bible also says, "There is no God" Ps 14:1b Though many may object to me calling into question James, James himself says he should be subject to scrutiny and Paul says of himself,"even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." And criticizes the naivete of Christians to believe anything they hear, "For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted——you may well put up with it". Do you agree that "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."? If not, then you see that it's not simply the issue of what the Bible says, but rather WHO SAID IT. Paul was an apostle validated by miracles. James was not an apostle. He doesn't have authority to change the gospel Paul preached. But as for turning a blind eye to the obvious contradiction between James and Paul let me ask you this question: From Romans 4, when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 fulfilled? From James 2, when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 fulfilled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcbsr Posted May 27, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 415 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 606 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 353 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 As I tried to state before, believe is an action verb. Abraham BELIEVED (with actions) God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Paul's argument in Romans 4 is that Abraham was justified prior to "taking action". He was justified apart from works. James reckons Abraham having a dead faith that doesn't saved all the way from Gen 15:6 till Gen 22 when James claims Gen 15:6 was fulfill, as if reading Gen 15:6 as a prophecy of a future event rather than describing what actually happened in Gen 15:6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts