Questions about verses in Psalms

[Openly Curious]

If it is not doctrinal, what then are the truths being conveyed by it?

Are you suggesting to me after you have read the passage for yourself there are no truths conveyed or found by you. Nor did you get anything from what I said in my post.

I said that the passage could be used by someone if need be in a doctrinal position if they want to use it to bring forth doctrinal truth as all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine....this would include said passage in Psalms which you denied as being able to be used as doctrine.

A "perfect hatred" is not sinful it's righteous.

[Guest Butero]

Psalm 139:20-22

 

20  For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21  Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee?  and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22  I hate them with perfect hatred.  I count them mine enemies.

 

David was said to be a man after God's own heart, so does this passage reflect God's heart towards his enemies?  It is hard for me to imagine that God was displeased with David for feeling like he did.  One thing I have noticed about the Old Testament is that people were not concerned with matters of the heart like Jesus taught us to be today.  You were not to commit adultery, but having adulterous thoughts were not an issue.  You were not to kill, but being angry with your brother without a cause was not an issue.  We know from Jesus' teachings that God cares not only about our outward actions, but about our heart.  How should we look at the enemies of God?  I know that personally, I hate their actions, but do I really hate them in the sense of desiring them to die and spend eternity in hell?  No.  I hate the person they are in what Satan has turned them into, but I look at the potential inside them to be a good person, and question what made them the way they are, and find myself almost pitying them, because I know what their eventual end will be if they don't repent.  I would have to conclude of the Psalmist that there was nothing sinful in his hatred for the enemies of God, based on his knowledge, but we have been shown more about how God views our heart as a result of the teachings of Christ, so we have more to be accountable for. 

 

@ Openly Curious, yours is a very interesting take on this subject of "righteous hate."  It is true that in Revelation, people were desiring the destruction of their enemies.  I tend to think they were questioning how long they will be allowed to continue their evil deeds and get away with it, almost like I sometimes question how come God allows evil people to continue their evil reign without being removed.  I can not understand why God doesn't put a swift end to them, and I think that is what the people were questioning.  Even so, you have given me something to think about.  You are referring to Revelation 6:9-11

 

9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11  And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

They do ask for God to avenge their blood, which isn't any different than in the Psalms where the Psalmist asks God to destroy his enemies.  In this instance, these are people who are already in heaven, and God doesn't rebuke them for asking for vengeance.  You have certainly given me something to consider. 

 

 

[Openly Curious]

A perfect hatred within a pure heart cries out to God for justice to be done for the evil being done or that has already been done as it is yet unpunished and their is no justice for the victims.

So many christians are made to feel guitly for what they are feeling inside as a result of evil that has been done to them personally. Like if the life of a family member was taken by an evil act of the wicked done by someone in this world. I can understand that heart and why it would cry out to God in the midst of those feeling of wanting justice to be carried out. I understand as well that vengeance is mine saith the Lord and He will repay. I understand we have to leave tough things in God's hands and that in his time judgment or punishment will come on the wicked for what they done and they want get away with it as the justice of God and not man's will be carried out.

But some Christians go around with guilty consciouses because they are made to think by other saints that what they are feeling toward the evil that was done and wanting punishment and justice to happen to those who done the evil is a sinful thing and is not the love of God toward the evildoers. They are made to feel by the church that any thoughts of punishment of any kind is an evil thing because it's not the love of God as God taught us to love our enemies. But loving our enemies and leaving the vengeance and justice in God's hand to carry out is biblical as well and what we are taught to do. Wanting justice is not hatred for the evildoers but wanting a wrong made right through justice and punishment.

I cry in my heart for God's justice to be carried out and his kingdom come and His will be done and I'm not wrong for that cry nor will I be made to feel guilty of some wrong I've never committed in a love message that is falsely delivered. I want embrace and accept the evil's done in this world nor the injustices that are done in the name of love as some believe I am to do. My heart's cry is just that of the saints that I read about in the bible and they are my examples to follow. I feel the heart of David and the things he went through in his life, I feel the heart of so many of the examples of the faith when I read the bible and can identify with what they feel in their hearts and and in the Psalms David expresses his self in his emotions in a pure way toward God without sin toward his enemies. I love the book of Psalms for that very reason as it teaches me how to express what I am feeling on the inside to God and if you have the heart of God how could one not feel what God feels toward evildoers who are God's enemies. People miss it or I'm just off my rocker here. But there is a difference in "perfect love" and "perfect hate" but both are pure as the driven snow.

[missmuffet]

Thank you for your replies.I think I understand now.Openly Curious you have a very creative way with words.I can respect that because I definitely could not put together what you have shown to me.

[Ezra]

I think it's also important to remember that not all Scripture is instructive. In other words, just because the Psalmist is here expressing a feeling, that doesn't necessarily mean we're meant to emulate it.

Actually all Scripture is indeed instructive (2 Tim 3:16).  While we are commanded to love those who personally injure us and hate us, we can certainly hate Satan and all his evil spirits, and those evildoers who commit indescribable atrocities against others, and will not repent.

 

The Psalmist (writing under Divine inspiration) says that the enemies of God are his enemies, therefore he hates them.  Those who have chosen to be enemies of God have already incurred His wrath and brought judgment upon themselves, and in many of the Psalms you will read that the Psalmist asks God to utterly destroy them (e.g. Ps 35:1-8). 

 

And God and Christ will indeed bring destruction upon all God's enemies.  Hence the Scripture where the Father addresses the Son and says "Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Ps 110:1).  At the Second Coming of Christ, He will be accompanied by His saints and angels to destroy His enemies at Armageddon (Jude 14,15; Rev 19:11-21). The bloodshed at this time will be beyond anything that we know (Rev 14:20).

[Guest shiloh357]

No, all Scripture is not instructive.  There is descriptive and prescriptive Scripture.  Not all Scripture is making doctrinal exhortations or describing virtues and making value statements.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Peeps,,,,,,

    Forgive me if I may repeat what someone else has said as I have not read all the replies here but I was very anxious to respond because "David"has always been one of my very favorite people in the Bible,,,   "Man after Gods own Heart"...

     David had a very intimate relationship with God,I think he was one who had passion beyond words,,,,,very much as God loves us,as we are fearfully & wonderfully made in Gods Image,,,,,for me,David reflects this,,,,,,,,

       In the Psalm you question,David is not so much filled with "hatred" or any thing so self righteous(as he describes it as perfect hate) but a righteous wrath towards anything that is not of God because of his love,faithfulness,relationship,bond ,reliance,,,,,I believe this "perfect hatred" is "Righteousness",,,,,,living in Gods Righteousness.....

     There is not instruction here,merely an example of David pouring his heart out to His Father,His Lord & God.......the one He always turns to to are all,,,,,,,there is the instruction,to seek that kind of relationship with our Father

 

 

 

King James Bible
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:                                 Proverbs 6:16

    We are instructed by Jesus not to "hate" ,,,,,but God ,His Word never changes,,,,,,living in Gods Righteousness,having been indwelled with the Holy Spirit of God Himself in Christ we would also hate "sin" with that "perfect hate",,,,,,,,,,,,,

                                                                                                                            With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Guest Butero]

I believe this "perfect hatred" is "Righteousness"....living in God's righteousness.

 

I like that Quickphilly. 

[Openly Curious]

Shiloh

Not all scripture is making doctrinal exhortations or describing virtues and making value statements.

So does that mean scripture becomes obsolete and can't be used nor is profitable for anything. What your are really saying is that you don't believe all scripture is inspired by God and therefore some of it can't be used for various reasons you've come up with. I guess you would pick and choose what is profitable and not profitable for use which is totally in direct opposition to what scripture tell us about all scripture and it's profit....

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteous, that the man of God may be perfect thouroughly furnished unto all good works.

All scripture from front to back cover is for our learning not one word of it is unprofitable as you have thus said. I would point out that any knowledge of God derived from the pages of God's word would be and is valuable.

Now no where does it limit scripture from being used or limited. All scripture is instructive as it gives the knowledge of God to mankind for our learning that we may grow in it. I would think as well as believe that every single word in the bible is valuable within it statement as God's word wil not come back void and will accomplish it's purpose whether one see's that purpose in it or not.

[Ezra]

No, all Scripture is not instructive.  There is descriptive and prescriptive Scripture.  Not all Scripture is making doctrinal exhortations or describing virtues and making value statements.

That statement contradicts Scripture itself.

 

We can either believe the cogitations of men, or we can believe the Word of God.  So let's see what God has to say about Scripture (2 Tim 3:16,17):

All scripture ("every word of God" Mt 4:4)

is given by inspiration of God, ("God-breathed" by the Holy Spirit)

and is profitable (instructive, whether history, geography, biography, doctrine, practical teaching, prophecy)

for doctrine, (God's teaching and God's truth)

for reproof,  (rebuke)

for correction, (making straight, setting straight)

for instruction in righteousness: (doing what is right)

That the man of God may be perfect, (complete)

throughly furnished unto all good works.(fully equipped).

 

When God says that His entire Word is profitable, it means spiritually profitable, which means it must teach us spiritual lessons, which means it is instructive, even if it is as seemingly "dry" as genealogy.