Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I agree. With the clarification that the cataclysms that begin the 6th seal precede the wrath, which only commences after the Divine appearance of verse 16.

Thanks Will

I have taken into consideration that the sixth seal tells us, " For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That is when, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." 

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So it is the END when Jesus returns. 

Revelation is NOT strictly chorological/sequential.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Uriah
sp

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

If they are here while the temple is being built and the AOD comes when that is done at the mid point, WHO did they torment?  The regular people building a temple? 

Whom did they torment? These people:

"These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.a 

5If ANYONE wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies.

In this way, ANYONE who wants to harm them must be killed.[emp mine]

 But the power of these two is much grander in scope:

" 6These witnesses have power to...

shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy,

and power to turn the waters into blood and

to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish." [emp mine]

It looks to me like the witnesses have a great deal of power to control elemental forces and the permission to wield that power as they see fit, for 3.5 years. So the witnesses can kill anyone who wishes to harm them AND withhold the rain, turn water to blood and unleash every plague[I think, frogs, flies, locusts, boils, disease and perhaps even storms and earthquakes.]

Literally the whole earth can, and probably will, be tormented by these two. Remember, the deception is upon us and is only going to increase in severity, meaning; people aren't going to repent but instead hate and commit even more evil.

But this 42 months of power and permission given to the two witnesses only makes sense to me if it's in the first half of the week before the the A of D. I assume Daniel 9 is correct; that there is a 7 year period of the end of the age, there is an A of D at the midpoint, and there is a time of unprecedented trouble in the last half of the week. 

This 7 years is where the agreement is confirmed with many and the Temple is rebuilt. It's a false agreement and designed to take control over Jerusalem and Israel. This is what the witnesses preach against during their time and the as yet unrevealed beast hates them for it; probably inciting many people to view them as evil terrorists or something. Then when the beast comes to power at the midpoint, placing his image in the Temple and declaring himself god, he kills the two witnesses and the people of the earth celebrate for three days. 

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you thing the AOD is 'the image'?  Or the false prophet? Or what?

A lot of times such things come in tandem. It's the beast and the false prophet, its the mark and the worship of the beast; so with the A of D it's the image and the proclamation of godhood. 

Jesus says, "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,", and Paul says, "He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

I take that to mean both are true so it's two conditions: the image and the usurpation. I think it's obviously an image in the temple since that's what worshippers of false gods always do, they make a statue and call it god. 

That's what Antiochus IV Epiphanes did according to the Jewish Encyclopedia here https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/353-abomination-of-desolation

and here https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

" On Kislew (Nov.-Dec.) 25, 168, the "abomination of desolation" (http://d3sva65x0i5hnc.cloudfront.net/V01p635001.jpg, Dan. xi. 31, xii. 11) was set up on the altar of burnt offering in the Temple, and the Jews required to make obeisance to it. This was probably the Olympian Zeus, or Baal Shamem. See Abomination of Desolation."

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


Do you see any connection between the above


AND


15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

No. mainly because Revelation tells us the 3 woes are the 5th, 6th and 7th trumps;

"“Woe! Woe! Woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the remaining three angels!";

and because raising the witnesses isn't the arrival of Jesus nor the meting of wrath.

So there is no connection between the events of the raising of the witnesses and the 6th seal arrival of Jesus and His dreaded wrath, and the 3 woes other than: God is controlling it all, it all happens in the proper order, all are in the last 7 years, it's all according to His purpose and plan.

I realize a lot of this comes straight out of the dispensational pretrib replacement doctrine but I'm good with it. Just because they got pretrib, dispensation and replacement theology wrong doesn't mean they got it all wrong.

 

[DeighAnn]

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

and there is a time of unprecedented trouble in the last half of the week. 

Would seem that would be a time that would fit with their particular 'gifts' and Gods particular purpose. 

So you believe that God removes the 'signs and wonders of His two witnesses' and replaces them with Satans 'lying signs and wonders'?


But the WAY it PLAYS OUT in REAL LIFE doesn't work that well, does it? 

the two witness arrive 'preach' and torment who? for 3.5 years.

the deadly wound happens

Satan arrives heals the wound  'WHO IS LIKE HIM'?

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

WHEN DOES HE HAVE THE TIME?  he would have to kill them instantly, wouldn't he?

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

THEN the world SEES heaven open up, hears God call to the two witnesses the whole world is partying over, WATCHES them come BACK TO LIFE, then WATCHES them taken up to heaven, 

So how does Satan, WHO JUST HAD THEM KILLED convince the whole world he is GOD after that?  Isn't the world SEEING heaven open and HEARING going to EXPOSE who he really is?  

Letting that go,

AT THE END OF 42 months what happens that makes Christ return?  What is the final EVENT?  






For 3.5 years Two witness with signs and wonders PREACH and stand for God are killed when Satan and angels arrive and for the next 3.5 YEARS Satan with lying signs and wonders deceives the world and then Christ returns?


or

Two witnesses with signs and wonders arrive, Satan arrives with lying signs and wonders and after tormenting him and angels for 3.5 years (and now feeling like he is god) kills the 2 witness and 3.5 DAYS later Christ returns and he is bound?

I dont know who would be tormented before
yet easy to see who tormented after

easy to convince the world he is god before GOD is seen and heard
hard to do after 

hard to see the whole world rejoicing at the beginning/when he first arrives
easy to see the world as one in rejoicing at the end

IDK.  It is hard for me to 'picture' it that way...

but thank you for sharing your thoughts with me....



 

 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Literally the whole earth can, and probably will, be tormented by these two. Remember, the deception is upon us and is only going to increase in severity, meaning; people aren't going to repent but instead hate and commit even more evil.

I think this is where we are seeing something different from one another.  

You see it as intentional evil, I see it as unintentional because of ignorance. Here is my point of view 

What is the deception?  Satan PRETENDING to be GOD.  Satan is coming to convince the world he is GOD.  He wants to be worshipped as God.  He isn't coming to show the world who HE REALLY IS, but who he WANTS to be.

PRE TRIB tells us it is all CARNAL death and destruction and torment and torture. BUT what is 'tribulation'?  The pressure you feel when between a rock and a hard place. 

Wouldn't everyone KNOW it was Satan if he went around killing everyone who claimed to be a Christian?  He has to KILL them without killing them.  Sure those who wont take the mark are killed 

but it is because they are the ONLY ONES WHO DON'T BELIEVE.
What is good has been made evil and what is evil has been made good.  So those who know are looked as just being rebellious and as UNBELIEVERS.  



But the FIGHT is for OUR LOVE, One because He loves us and the other because he hates God.

 During the FIRST HALF

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

He casts out a flood of LIES this comes from the entire system set up to rule over the world.  Look around, GOD is being taken out of everything by lies and deception already

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where is the power?  


And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

how do you make war with the saints?  YOU MAKE THEM BELIEVE IN YOUR LIES, YOU DECEIVE THEM INTO THINKING YOU ARE someone you are not, and you get the whole world to believe it.  Talk about making someone question what they know and believe.  

THE CHURCH IS/HAS FALLEN AWAY.  'My people perish for lack of knowledge', they lose their souls.  Not a war of flesh and blood but principalities.  

THE POWER comes from the MOUTHS.  Sure there are those of Gods elect who will be killed but not that many truly know Gods Truth.  Most of them don't even think they will be here so when HE DOES come, they don't know anything.  Certainly the people here on these forums know 'the other side'
but when they teach PRE TRIB RAP in the churches, they don't ever teach THE OTHER SIDE of the argument do they?  I don't know but it sure does seem to be one sided from what I see here.  So ALL those 'church goers' don't really have a clue.  How hard will it be to deceive them?  Not at all.  They have never heard the truth AND past THEY WILL BE GONE and we are left behind/endure know nothing. 

BUT when they see Gods elect being given up for trial, when they hear the words of the Holy Spirit...hopefully they will come to their senses, hopefully.   



8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
 

[Diaste]

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

 

Would seem that would be a time that would fit with their particular 'gifts' and Gods particular purpose. 

So you believe that God removes the 'signs and wonders of His two witnesses' and replaces them with Satans 'lying signs and wonders'?

Lying signs and wonders are happening now. Those signs and wonders will grow more convincing and frequent and wax greater in size scope and power. It's not replacement but opposition. 

It's strange to me to think you believe people will follow God because of a sign or two. 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

But the WAY it PLAYS OUT in REAL LIFE doesn't work that well, does it? 

If one thinks back over the last 4000 years about the prophets of God and the signs that accompanied them; when did people en masse repent? Except for a few cases they did not. Egypt didn't repent even when Moses and Aaron presented sign after sign; signs which were as bad or worse than what the two witnesses bring. 

Did Pharaoh repent when the first born died? No.

Did the Egyptian army cease their pursuit when they were confronted with the pillar of fire? No.

Did the Jews repent at Sinai when thick darkness covered the mountain, the mountain shook and they heard the voice of God? Nope. They cast a false god from gold. 

The people of God right now in 2023 are deluded beyond imagination. In real life accountability is terrifying and to be avoided at all costs, even with the people of God. I don't buy the argument that people will 'see something' then suddenly repent with a pure heart. If they don't hear Moses and the prophets they will not be convinced though one rose from the dead. 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

the two witness arrive 'preach' and torment who? for 3.5 years.

Well, the whole world, as it is written.

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

the deadly wound happens

Satan arrives heals the wound  'WHO IS LIKE HIM'?

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

WHEN DOES HE HAVE THE TIME?  he would have to kill them instantly, wouldn't he?

Who is to say he doesn't? I don't know that. No one knows that. Does the beast kill them immediately? Within 24 hours? The same week? Hard to say since the scripture is silent on the exact time and date. 

What is certain is both the witnesses and the beast get 42 months. Is that exactly 42 months to the second? Maybe. Maybe not. 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

THEN the world SEES heaven open up, hears God call to the two witnesses the whole world is partying over, WATCHES them come BACK TO LIFE, then WATCHES them taken up to heaven, 

One thing that sticks out here most don't realize. If the witnesses and the beast exist in parallel times for the full 42 months then the world is going to have a 3 day party during the wrath of Almighty God. 

If that's the case there is no relief from the torment of the witnesses as wrath is also being poured out.

The world parties and sends gifts in celebration of a respite from the terrible power of the witnesses. I don't think they would be in the mood to party at the very end of the 42 months of the last half of the week, what with their being no water, sea life is all dead, all the trees are burned, scorching heat, boils, etc.

When the world does celebrate is when the witnesses are killed and the prospect of life returning to normal exists. That would not be the case at the end of the 42 months when wrath is crushing the earth and the people on it. 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

So how does Satan, WHO JUST HAD THEM KILLED convince the whole world he is GOD after that?  Isn't the world SEEING heaven open and HEARING going to EXPOSE who he really is?  

Would it matter when it's at the very end of the 42 months of the last half of the week? 

The gathering has already occurred, wrath is destroying the earth, the great armies have gathered at Megiddo, Christ has alighted on the Mount of Olives, the Jews in Jerusalem have fled, the battle lines drawn; and you think this is the point where the beast and Satan are exposed by the resurrection of the witnesses? 

 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

Letting that go,

AT THE END OF 42 months what happens that makes Christ return?  What is the final EVENT?  

 

Jesus arrive before the end of the week by several months to probably a year.

 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

For 3.5 years Two witness with signs and wonders PREACH and stand for God are killed when Satan and angels arrive and for the next 3.5 YEARS Satan with lying signs and wonders deceives the world and then Christ returns?

or

Two witnesses with signs and wonders arrive, Satan arrives with lying signs and wonders and after tormenting him and angels for 3.5 years (and now feeling like he is god) kills the 2 witness and 3.5 DAYS later Christ returns and he is bound?

I hope you don't think lying signs and wonders aren't happening already. 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

I don't know who would be tormented before

Why is this so difficult?

5If anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. 6These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish.

The Witnesses Killed and Raised

7When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

The witnesses torment everyone. It's written right in Rev 11.

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

easy to convince the world he is god before GOD is seen and heard
hard to do after 

Right. That's why when Jesus was seen as God and ascended to heaven there was no way to convince people the false gods are the real ones. 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

hard to see the whole world rejoicing at the beginning/when he first arrives
easy to see the world as one in rejoicing at the end

What do you mean? The world will rejoice when wrath is being poured out? 

 

 

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 AM, DeighAnn said:

IDK.  It is hard for me to 'picture' it that way...

but thank you for sharing your thoughts with me....



 

 

 

[Uriah]

On 1/12/2023 at 12:44 PM, DeighAnn said:

So how does Satan, WHO JUST HAD THEM KILLED convince the whole world he is GOD after that?  Isn't the world SEEING heaven open and HEARING going to EXPOSE who he really is?  

Hi DeighAnn

This is one of the reasons I believe the great tribulation is 3.5. yrs. The two witnesses are there in the beginning and last for 1260 days approx. at the time the city-Jerusalem- will be divided and occupied by so-called peace keepers.

I will go so far as to say that the cataclysms begin when they are taken up, perhaps the same day! Their bodies are seen world wide...coming back to life and going up!

For this to happen there are no cataclysms happening worldwide. But as we see in Rev 16:10- The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness.

This because of the cloud that was created by the impact of Rev 8:8 had ejected material right out into space. AND because of the build up of charges created by collecting ions from the sun on the cloud, there will be a massive grid failure. An EMP-like event that will that will even be able to permanently wipe computer data. They won't be able to buy and sell either!

The quake that happens on the day the witnesses rise may be the beginning of cataclysms as the asteroid comes close enough to the Earth to exchange charge with God's exact timing while everyone is busing watching their screens. And yes, asteroids have come close to our planet without being noticed for days when they approach from the direction of the sun.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Lying signs and wonders are happening now. Those signs and wonders will grow more convincing and frequent and wax greater in size scope and power. It's not replacement but opposition. 

It's strange to me to think you believe people will follow God because of a sign or two. 

You may be missing the power of what will be taking place when Satan and his angels are cast to earth. 

Do you feel the whole world is being deceived?  Has there been a deadly wound that the fixing of has made the whole world notice the 'fixer' of it yet?  Because until that happens,  whatever is happening is only under the 'influence' of the prince of the power of the air, but not the 'man of sin cast down to the earth with his angels who receive their kingdom for an hour'


2 Thes 2 9
whose is coming according to [the] working of Satan in every power


1411. dunamis ►
Strong's Concordance
dunamis: (miraculous) power, might, strength
Original Word: δύναμις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dunamis
Phonetic Spelling: (doo'-nam-is)
Definition: (miraculous) power, might, strength
Usage: (a) physical power, force, might, ability, efficacy, energy, meaning (b) plur: powerful deeds, deeds showing (physical) power, marvelous works.
HELPS Word-studies
1411 dýnamis (from 1410 /dýnamai, "able, having ability") – properly, "ability to perform" (L-N); for the believer, power to achieve by applying the Lord's inherent abilities. "Power through God's ability" (1411 /dýnamis) is needed in every scene of life to really grow in sanctification and prepare for heaven (glorification). 1411 (dýnamis) is a very important term, used 120 times in the NT.

and in signs

 4592. sémeion ►
Strong's Concordance
sémeion: a sign
Original Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sémeion
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on)
Definition: a sign
Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.
HELPS Word-studies
4592 sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate. 4592 /sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it. Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the NT for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for.

and in wonders

5059. teras ►
Strong's Concordance
teras: a wonder, marvel
Original Word: τέρας, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: teras
Phonetic Spelling: (ter'-as)
Definition: a wonder, marvel
Usage: a wonder, portent, marvel.
HELPS Word-studies
5059 téras – a miraculous wonder, done to elicit a reaction from onlookers; an extraordinary event with its supernatural effect left on all witnessing it, i.e. a portent from heaven to earth.

 

of falsehood

5579. pseudos ►
Strong's Concordance
pseudos: a falsehood, untruth, lie
Original Word: ψεῦδος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pseudos
Phonetic Spelling: (psyoo'-dos)
Definition: a falsehood, untruth, lie
Usage: a lie, falsehood, untruth; false religion.

 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

The people of God right now in 2023 are deluded beyond imagination. In real life accountability is terrifying and to be avoided at all costs, even with the people of God. I don't buy the argument that people will 'see something' then suddenly repent with a pure heart. If they don't hear Moses and the prophets they will not be convinced though one rose from the dead. 

NO ONE on earth today has seen miracles like those of the past.  WE are under FAITH.  That is why there are no signs.  

UNTIL Satan and his angels arrive.  AND the two witnesses.  

HE is given a crown and he is given power and it will be SUPERNATURAL and it will be for the whole world to see.  

HE is so good that the time had to be SHORTENED.  That is one of the scariest verses in the bible.  It is going to be a TEST but who better to TEST in such a manner than THOSE OF US WHO HAVE ALL THIS KNOWLEDGE at our fingertips in the blink of an eye.  NEVER have Gods people had the  OPPORTUNITY to truly find HIS TRUTH

but they don't. and they wont BUT THIS IS WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING IS PUTTING OUT HIS TRUTH AND WE ARE AMONGST THE WOLVES, MAKE NO MISTAKE and many of them are better at LOOKING and acting like SHEEP THAN we are.  

So I agee.  THE FALLING AWAY is of the church SINCE they are the only ones  who have COME TO.  And the whole world will be deceived. 

So all that pre trib death and destruction IS CARNAL.  They can't see THE DEATH OF THE SOULS which has no effect upon the flesh body.   Satan is making ZOMBIES.  the walking DEAD.  



 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, the whole world, as it is written.

WHO HAS THEM KILLED?  That is what tells us WHO they TORMENT. 

We are going to LOVE THEM because we know what they will be giving is truth.  THE REST OF THE WORLD won't know because they believe Satan is "God" and so believe they are of the devil themselves.  It's deception.  

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Who is to say he doesn't? I don't know that. No one knows that. Does the beast kill them immediately? Within 24 hours? The same week? Hard to say since the scripture is silent on the exact time and date. 

What is certain is both the witnesses and the beast get 42 months. Is that exactly 42 months to the second? Maybe. Maybe not. 

No, the days is about a week longer than the months.  

Who is to say?  WELL once they are killed within  the same hour CHRIST RETURNS so we know the two witnesses come at the LAST 1/2 unless you can find a different way that would work but since the kingdoms of this world become His at that point I DON'T.  

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

One thing that sticks out here most don't realize. If the witnesses and the beast exist in parallel times for the full 42 months then the world is going to have a 3 day party during the wrath of Almighty God. 

tHE WRATH/great tribulation doesn't begin until the two witnesses rise up.  UNTIL THAT VERY POINT there is still CHOICES souls can make.  

Christ comes when the 7th seal is opened and THAT IS WHEN THE ANGELS FIRST GET THE TRUMPS AND VIALS.  

tILL THEN ARE 'JUDGMENTS' TO TRY AND BRING THE PEOPLE TO REPENTANCE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.  



 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Right. That's why when Jesus was seen as God and ascended to heaven there was no way to convince people the false gods are the real ones. 

When Christ returns we GO THROUGH A REALM CHANGE.  There are ANGELS and TRANSFOMATIONS and DEAD RISING and GOD IN HEAVEN being seen and heard.  

EVERYTHING we live right now WILL BE DIFFERENT.  

THE ELEMENT S AND WORKS ARE GOING TO BE BURNT up.  

Get it straight in your head

when Christ returns WE ARE LIVING A DIFFERENT life/realm.  Heaven has come to earth.  All these knowledge (elements) will be GONE.  



 

 

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

What do you mean? The world will rejoice when wrath is being poured out?

New Heaven and New Earth...I think is what I meant.  

Again thank you.  

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi DeighAnn

This is one of the reasons I believe the great tribulation is 3.5. yrs. The two witnesses are there in the beginning and last for 1260 days approx. at the time the city-Jerusalem- will be divided and occupied by so-called peace keepers.

I will go so far as to say that the cataclysms begin when they are taken up, perhaps the same day! Their bodies are seen world wide...coming back to life and going up!

For this to happen there are no cataclysms happening worldwide. But as we see in Rev 16:10- The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness.

This because of the cloud that was created by the impact of Rev 8:8 had ejected material right out into space. AND because of the build up of charges created by collecting ions from the sun on the cloud, there will be a massive grid failure. An EMP-like event that will that will even be able to permanently wipe computer data. They won't be able to buy and sell either!

The quake that happens on the day the witnesses rise may be the beginning of cataclysms as the asteroid comes close enough to the Earth to exchange charge with God's exact timing while everyone is busing watching their screens. And yes, asteroids have come close to our planet without being noticed for days when they approach from the direction of the sun.

But all these things happen under the 7th seal, the return of Christ.  

New realm, new bodies.  

GODS WRATH is the DAY OF VENGEANCE, THE GREAT TRIBULATION. 

Everything before THAT moment is tribulation of Satan and up unil the witnesses are called up REPENTANCE can still be had, a second later is tooo late. AS GOD is SEEN AND HEARD and all that is left if you realize you have been deceived IS GODS WRATH FALLING UPON YOU.  


That is why the WANT mountains to fall on them THE REALIZATION OF DECEPTION IS BROUGHT into the light by the return of CHRIST.  IT IS HIS BRIGHTNESS that destroys all that was safely hidden in the 'darkness' of his kingdom.  

I am not saying there aren't 'judgments' coming upon the world to TRY and get everyone to repent before it is too late but that isn't GODS WRATH that is God trying to OPEN EYES. 


I am with you on the EMP or as I think of it coming from God the sun flare


Me, I believe
first 1/2 the rising up of the 'synagogue of Satan' to the ONE WORLD ORDER a system of many heads and crowns and powers

middle SUNFLARE

2nd 1/2 two witness followed quickly by Satan and angels

THIS IS THE TRIBULATION OF SATAN.  It isn't GREAT tribulation that would be GODS WRATH

During this second half is our first TRUE introduction to the supernatural realm that we have never been exposed to being called 'in faith' and not by 'works' (meaning God not performing miracles)

There will be the image set up and a going back and forth between Satan and two witnesses.  

Satan finally kills them and we go to the next stage of the UNSEEN REALM when heaven is opened up  and GOD IS SEEN AND HEARD and everyone realizes that they have been deceived 

and now TRIBULATION SUCH AS HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN AND NEVER WILL AGAIN COMES UPON THE EARTH.  

NOW THE REALM CHANGE IS COMPLETED THE unseen NOW SEEN with the dead rising and the alive and remaining being changed and the Millennium set up to see which of the dead will be found just and which wont when the stand at the GWTJ

right before the GWTJ Satan loosed, final war.  

Once done, NHNE is brought forth. 



At least that is what I believe anyhow.  So far