Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[enoob57]

Well I guess I fit in with those you appose then ... cause that is how I see it as well. I don't discuss
much about eschatology due to the scattering of Godly men all over the place!  Love, Steven 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Well Pre-Wrath preserves that element of Pre-Trib you seek: escape from the Wrath of God which is to come.

However, I do not agree with your eschatology's placement of the Rapture before the one 'seven.'
To do so, I think you are setting yourself up for a great disappointment - realizing when the Man of Lawlessness is finally revealed, and the Great Tribulation is upon you, that somehow you're in a time period you never thought you'd be in, and go looking for an escape in all the wrong places so that these words of Jesus come true:

Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or ' There He is, ' do not believe him.  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.  Behold, I have told you in advance.  So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. - Matthew 24:23-26.  NASB

My message to you then is: endure patiently, remain steadfast, and keep the faith: you don't have to make it to the end to make it into Heaven.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[WilliamL]

On 6/6/2016 at 2:46 PM, enoob57 said:

On 6/6/2016 at 2:32 PM, WilliamL said:

Just a reminder: this topic is a discussion site for advocates of pre-wrath, and no other position. Other positions have their own set-aside sites for their own discussions.

All other topics on the prophecy forum are open to all positions to debate each other -- just not these ones pinned to the top.

To enoob: pre-wrath holds that the Church will NOT "suffer the wrath of God," so your statement is completely without merit here.

seeing how you evidently misread topic header
Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

Pre-wrath is by definition a Post-trib position, but perhaps you did not know that. It is simply a shorthand way of saying it.

In full, the position is: 6th Seal Rapture, Post-Great Tribulation, Pre-Wrath.

[missmuffet]

13 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Pre-wrath is by definition a Post-trib position, but perhaps you did not know that. It is simply a shorthand way of saying it.

In full, the position is: 6th Seal Rapture, Post-Great Tribulation, Pre-Wrath.

I do not believe that is the case. More like Mid-trib.

Question: "What are the strengths and weaknesses of the pre-wrath view of the rapture?"

Answer: There are many opinions regarding eschatology (the doctrine of future things). However, almost all Christians agree on three things: 1) there will be a future time of tribulation, 2) after that time of trouble, Jesus will return to establish His kingdom, and, 3) believers will be translated from their mortal state to an immortal one—in other words, there will be a rapture (John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). One remaining question is, when will the rapture occur in relation to the tribulation and Christ’s second coming?

The three basic theories concerning the timing of the rapture are pretribulationism, which places the rapture before the tribulation; midtribulationism, which places the rapture at or near the midpoint of the tribulation; and posttribulationism, which places the rapture at the end of the tribulation. Somewhat closely related to midtribulationism is the belief in a “pre-wrath” rapture, which is the subject of this article.

The pre-wrath rapture theory says that the rapture occurs before the “great day of . . . wrath” (Revelation 6:17). According to the pre-wrath view, believers go through most of the tribulation but not the time of God's wrath just before the end of the tribulation (Matthew 24:21). The church will endure Satan’s fury and man’s persecution, but will be spared God’s wrath. Before God pours out His final judgment on the world, the church will be caught up to heaven. Here is a brief summary of the pre-wrath rapture position.

The pre-wrath rapture theory views the trumpet and the bowl judgments (Revelation 7–16) as the wrath of God, from which the church is exempted (1 Thessalonians 5:9). However, the first six seal judgments (Revelation 6) are not considered the wrath of God; rather, they are viewed as “the wrath of Satan” or “the wrath of the antichrist.” This is because there is no direct mention of God’s wrath until after the sixth seal is broken (Revelation 6:17). According to the pre-wrath rapture theory, the church will be present to experience the first six seals.

Comparing Revelation 6 with Matthew 24, the pre-wrath rapture theorists identify the first seal judgments with Jesus’ description of the end times in Matthew 24:4-7. Jesus then refers to these events as “the beginning of birth pains” (verse 8). In verses 29 and 30, “the sign of the Son of Man” appears in the sky, and it is at this time, according to the pre-wrath rapture theory, that the rapture of the church occurs.

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.

http://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

[WilliamL]

19 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The one 'seven' is defined in Daniel 9:27.
Most people (erroneously) call it the "Tribulation Period."
This is how classical Pre-Trib usually terms it among those that subscribe to that eschatology.

And this is where we agree in part, and disagree in part. It is certainly not the Tribulation Period, agreed.

However, it has nothing to do with the End Times, being already completely fulfilled within the Jewish War of 66-73 AD: this is where we disagree.

There is no second witness to be found of a 7-year period in the End Times, and no second witness that the Temple will be rebuilt, and sacrifices re-instituted, before the Messiah returns to rebuild it.

[WilliamL]

3 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

I do not believe that is the case.

Question: "What are the strengths and weaknesses of the pre-wrath view of the rapture?"

 

Answer: ... According to the pre-wrath view, believers go through most of the tribulation but not the time of God's wrath just before the end of the tribulation...

 

19 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The one 'seven' is defined in Daniel 9:27.
Most people (erroneously) call it the "Tribulation Period."
This is how classical Pre-Trib usually terms it among those that subscribe to that eschatology.

Marcus has it right, and your quote has it wrong. I know of no pre-wrath advocate that says that God's wrath comes "just before the end of the tribulation."

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

 

Marcus has it right, and your quote has it wrong. I know of no pre-wrath advocate that says that God's wrath comes "just before the end of the tribulation."

It is a matter of perspective on how you read Scripture.

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, bopeep1909 said:

It is a matter of perspective on how you read Scripture.

What you posted is a matter of misrepresentation of another's teachings, period.

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

What you posted is a matter of misrepresentation of another's teachings, period.

We do not see eye to eye on this William and we have not for a long time. We will just have to agree to disagree.

[enoob57]

That was my understanding as well Peepers  ... so title is mid and post trib views of rapture.