Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[WilliamL]

23 hours ago, Last Daze said:

At the sixth seal people hide in fear of the coming wrath.  At the return of Christ everyone mourns.  I don't see fear as being synonymous with mourning.

If you had been rejecting Jesus as Lord and Savior, and suddenly he supernaturally out of the heavens appears before you in his full glory, and all the thoughts of your heart are revealed to all, would you not

1) fear; and

2) κόπτω kóptō, kop'-to; a primary verb; to "chop"; specially, to beat the breast in grief:—cut down, lament, mourn, (be-)wail; and

3) try to hide yourself and your shame from your public exposure?

Isaiah 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low. ... 19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 7/23/2016 at 10:05 AM, Last Daze said:

At the sixth seal people hide in fear of the coming wrath.  At the return of Christ everyone mourns.  I don't see fear as being synonymous with mourning.

Your word comparison is not valid.  Rev 6 does not say they hide in fear; you're imputing that motive to them.
It is not a FEAR does not equal MOURN equation at all.
As WilliamL states, they have not only rejected Jesus, but are aligned with the anti-Christ in hating the God of Israel and Jesus.

And when not only an Angel, but three Angels, proclaim His Coming Wrath - of course they go into hiding, not wanting to be humbled at all.  NONE of the wicked repent through all of God's Wrath until the very end - and then, and only then, do the surviving remnant Jews give thanks to God!

On 7/23/2016 at 10:05 AM, Last Daze said:

At the sixth seal, do people actually see the Son of Man? 

At some point, yes, because the entire portion of the gathering of the Elect is omitted from this particular passage of prophecy.  Every eye will see - Rev 1:7.

On 7/23/2016 at 10:05 AM, Last Daze said:

Or is the sky rolled back to where people get a glimpse into the spiritual realm showing the throne room scene in chapter 5?

Conjecture: all I am equating the Scrolling of the Sky is to the Sign of the Son of Man.

That Jesus comes down as He went up - Acts 1:11 - is the predicate basis for what this Scrolling will be like.

I do, as you, postulate that the Scrolling of the Sky represents a dimensional rift between Heaven and Earth.

That it brings Light to the darkness is yet another miraculous reversal of normality in the Day of the Lord, opposite the darkening of the sun at noon - Amos 8:9 - where it comes from and how is pure conjecture on my part as well.  God rarely tells us how He will accomplish His Works.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[WilliamL]

On 7/22/2016 at 7:34 PM, Diaste said:

we understand the duration of the beast to be 42 months following the A of D

What you mean "WE," kimo sabe? Me say no such thing.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, WilliamL said:

What you mean "WE," kimo sabe? Me say no such thing.

I believe that. I would make a case for it but since I'm a pragmatic biblical student, and I don't see that in your posts, the discussion would go nowhere. However, thanks for your input.

D.

[Last Daze]

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

If you had been rejecting Jesus as Lord and Savior, and suddenly he supernaturally out of the heavens appears before you in his full glory, and all the thoughts of your heart are revealed to all, would you not

 

22 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Your word comparison is not valid.  Rev 6 does not say they hide in fear; you're imputing that motive to them.
It is not a FEAR does not equal MOURN equation at all.
As WilliamL states, they have not only rejected Jesus, but are aligned with the anti-Christ in hating the God of Israel and Jesus.

Preceding the sixth seal is a time of martyrdom, a time when the vast majority of people are deceived into thinking that the man of sin is God.  From their perspective, they are doing God a favor by killing all those infidels.  What do they do at the sixth seal?  They hide.  I think its reasonable to impute fear to them as a motive for hiding.   Even if there is mourning at the sixth seal, I can't find where every eye sees " the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory" at that point.  That to me seems to be the bigger assumption.

And there's always this:

• “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:15-16

Those who didn't stay awake and keep their clothes as the armies gathered for Armageddon will be the mourners.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

25 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

they are doing God a favor by killing all those infidels. 

This is not talking about muslims and islam.  The Great Tribulation concerns the wholesale slaughter of Christians and anyone else who does not do as the authorities say.

26 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Even if there is mourning at the sixth seal, I can't find where every eye sees " the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory" at that point.  That to me seems to be the bigger assumption.

I am not limited by what you cannot see.

I have put this prophecy together with others around specific and unique events in the prophetic linear narratives.

That you don't believe or have a different opinion does not change what I have assembled through my analysis of the sequence-of-events which leads me to a Pre-Wrath position.

28 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Those who didn't stay awake and keep their clothes as the armies gathered for Armageddon will be the mourners.

That is wholly your opinion and not any firm conclusion reached in the prophetic Scripture.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I have put this prophecy together with others around specific and unique events in the prophetic linear narratives.

That you don't believe or have a different opinion does not change what I have assembled through my analysis of the sequence-of-events which leads me to a Pre-Wrath position.

Well, I guess that settles that.  Have a great life.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Preceding the sixth seal is a time of martyrdom, a time when the vast majority of people are deceived into thinking that the man of sin is God.  From their perspective, they are doing God a favor by killing all those infidels.  What do they do at the sixth seal?  They hide.  I think its reasonable to impute fear to them as a motive for hiding.   Even if there is mourning at the sixth seal, I can't find where every eye sees " the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory" at that point.  That to me seems to be the bigger assumption.

No scripture says the vast majority of people are deceived by the Son of Perdition. An assumption on your part. Muslims already think they are doing God a favor by killing Christians, and are doing so even now.

Why would they hide if they had NOT seen the Son of Man? Wherefore then the fear? Why would they say, "hide us from the Face," if they had NOT seen the Face? Even the Son of Perdition himself is brought to nothing by the "brightness of his [our Lord's] Coming/Presence."

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm a pragmatic biblical student, and I don't see that in your posts

Spare us the chest-thumping, please, and stick to the Word.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The Great Tribulation concerns the wholesale slaughter of Christians

Many Christians will be martyred, certainly. Many will escape. Many will be killed by the famine, plagues and wars, just like all other peoples. But Jesus will cut short the Trib, so a multitude of Christians will still survive it. God is always able to protect his own: just like he has done in the past, so will he do during the Trib.