Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Marcus O'Reillius]

28 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Well, I guess that settles that.  Have a great life.

I will argue specifics all day long and show you the reason for the sequence of events that I lay out - from one, two, or even three linear, prophetic narratives.

I do not do merely a 'this means that, and that means this' eschatological rendering as so many do to make Scripture fit their own thinking which they turn into belief.

[Diaste]

32 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Spare us the chest-thumping, please, and stick to the Word.

I do stick to the Word. I don't engage in meaningless word studies and wishful thinking. I realize I know nothing about either the origin or fulfillment of prophecy so I remain in the scriptures trying to gain understanding. Many in this topic feel they have full understanding of the end of the age. I'm not one of them. I'm forced to stay in the Word, looking for understanding of the concepts and ideas of prophecy for two reasons: I don't fully understand everything about the end of the age and Jesus' return, and I trust no man or woman to guide me in that search for understanding. Since I have on numerous occasions posted a plethora of scripture in reply to you concerning the A of D, and you didn't even acknowledge the points I made, showing zero respect for another's thoughts, I can tell any other discussion with you is growing  in a fruitless orchard. So, thanks but no thanks.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

5 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Jesus will cut short the Trib, so a multitude of Christians will still survive it. God is always able to protect his own: just like he has done in the past, so will he do during the Trib.

Jesus said concerning this period of time:

• Mt 24:9 Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
• Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Paul said concerning this period of time leading up to the Rapture:

• 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,
• 1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep,

Concerning the martyrs, Jesus revealed to John:

• Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
• Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
• (Concerning the Great Tribulation) Rev 13:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

And Jesus said:

• Mt 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
• Mk 13:11 When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. 12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. 13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

During the Great Tribulation, we will die.

Jesus said that we will be killed, and that if the Great Tribulation were not cut short - none of the Elect (who are the only applicable ones affected) would not be killed.
Paul said we who are alive AND REMAIN - there is no sense that the majority of the Elect are there.
Jesus warned us that we must endure to the end - to the point of losing our life!

While the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation (Rev 7:14) - those also include ALL the Dead in Christ who are raised first, before those -who remain- are taken up.
Thus, "out of" is at that point in time.  Not all of the Great Multitude survive the Great Tribulation.

The ones God protects through the second half of the one 'seven' are the Remnant Jews who flee.
The woman as portrayed in Rev 12:1 is interpreted by Scripture found in Gen 37:9-11 as the Hebrew nation of Israel.
WE are contrasted against her in Rev 12:17.

There is no evidence that a multitude, or even a majority of the Elect survive the Daniel Test of the Great Tribulation.
The sense I get that the Great Tribulation is so great - i.e. terrible - is because the Great Tribulation entails such a large loss of innocent life!

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

No scripture says the vast majority of people are deceived by the Son of Perdition. An assumption on your part.

Of the evil trio, only the false prophet (son of perdition, man of sin) is a human.

• And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast.  Revelation 13:14a
• And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.  Revelation 19:20a

 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Of the evil trio, only the false prophet (son of perdition, man of sin) is a human.

No scripture says or indicates that the False Prophet is the Son of Perdition. (Agreed that the FP is the only human among the evil trio.)

The Son of Perdition will exhibit himself to be a god, in the naos of God. Whereas the False Prophet will make an image of a being other than himself to be worshiped.

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Since I have on numerous occasions posted a plethora of scripture in reply to you concerning the A of D, and you didn't even acknowledge the points I made...

I often don't respond to everything in shotgun posts. But if you have something specific in mind that I missed, point it out and I will answer it. However, I think that your statement about "numerous occasions" is at least a wee bit of hyperbole.

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

During the Great Tribulation, we will die.

Jesus said that we will be killed, and that if the Great Tribulation were not cut short - none of the Elect (who are the only applicable ones affected) would not be killed.

First you say, "we will die," then you hedge your bet and say maybe not all. You don't know what percentage will survive, neither do I. However, I have the precedent of the two OT archetypal types, the Exodus and the coming of the Kingdom under Solomon. And in both of those cases, only a minority were killed. I hold to that.

7 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Paul said we who are alive AND REMAIN - there is no sense that the majority of the Elect are there.

Likewise, there is no sense that only a minority are there. Paul was not even addressing the issue about deaths during the Trib.: -- he was addressing the concern about those who had already died due to natural causes.

8 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

While the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation (Rev 7:14) - those also include ALL the Dead in Christ who are raised first, before those -who remain- are taken up.
Thus, "out of" is at that point in time.  Not all of the Great Multitude survive the Great Tribulation.

All true. I hold that the Trib. will affect not only earth, but also the heavens and the hells.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Whereas the False Prophet will make an image of a being other than himself to be worshiped.

The image is made of the beast, the evil angel with seven heads and ten horns that comes up out of the abyss.  The deceived people of the earth make it.  The beast causes the FP to exercise dominion by using him as a channel for manifesting supernatural power (calling fire down from heaven, etc).  The image of that beast will likewise affirm the dominion of the FP.

I see the image of the beast as  a code of conduct that everyone worldwide helps craft when they line up to get the mark.  The FP "weaponizes" it by making it law.  Obey it or be put to death.

So, I agree that the image is not of the FP.  But in worshiping it (complying with the code of conduct), the FP is worshiped and his dominion is affirmed.  Causing the FP to exercise dominion is what the beast does, and its what his likeness or image does as well.

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

First you say, "we will die," then you hedge your bet and say maybe not all. You don't know what percentage will survive, neither do I. However, I have the precedent of the two OT archetypal types, the Exodus and the coming of the Kingdom under Solomon. And in both of those cases, only a minority were killed. I hold to that.

You ignored my final statement.
As the Great Tribulation is the most terrible time ever of unjust persecution, it does not follow that it come lightly.

1. There will be a "Daniel Test" - worship or die.
-- a.)This means that normal movement may be highly limited as checkpoints or other government interaction could take place at transportational nodal points like airports, train stations, bus stations, and highways.  Going downtown may have severe consequences, especially if the populace, which is most wicked, is also on guard to inquire whether or not you're with them.
-- b.) With the advent of computers, the likeness of the talking image could be presented anywhere there is cell phone coverage and via computers again, could "live stream" your face-to-face encounter.

2. No buying or selling.
-- a.) You wont' be able to go to work to sell your labor.  Biometrics will demand some sort of ID.  As I am in the business of moving about secure areas, already we have an elaborate setup to constrict access.  You can expect that to continue and to propagate to other work environments. 
-- b.) As with the above example 1.A.) you won't be allowed to use, planes, trains, and public transportation.  Nor will you be able to use your car so long as you need to buy gas.  Never mind that Worship Compliance Checkpoints could be set up that would catch you trying to be independent.  If you're not riding on horseback, cart, bicycle, or foot-powered scooter, which we rarely do outside of Amish country,; you're on foot - and that could be the very thing they're looking for in order to arrest you and put you to the "Daniel Test".
-- c.) Water, food, clothing, and shelter: how will you provide that?  Three days without electricity and being isolated because of natural disaster is enough to put most communities on a strict survival basis.  By that time, the stores are empty, and looting is a problem.  How will you provide water when your well is run by electricity and you can't pay the bill because you're not "chipped"?  How are you going to get food?  If you aren't growing it, you don't have it.  You'd have store it; better check those prepper sites.

 

Now you tell me how you as a modern man is going to move around the front range of Colorado with its limited roads.  You might be able to camp out, but you're going to have to sustain yourself and any you love - and still even out west, you're going to make an IR signature which will not be lost on the authorities who will very well be looking for just such activity.

I am already instituting a plan of action which will prepare my wife to "bed down" and hide in plain sight.  I, as a man, will probably not "make it."  Men are desirable targets because we are a threat as combatants.  Women, well, not so much a threat as a reward for the victor, if you get my drift...  If you read Isaiah 4, you will find that more women survive the one 'seven' than men.  Even then, they're in pretty rough shape... - the one 'seven' will eliminate enough people that even including us from an initial count, that less than 1% of the present world population survive it.  (1/3 of 15 million Jews + 10:1 Gentiles as per Zechariah = 55 million versus 7+ billion today.)

[WilliamL]

5 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

As the Great Tribulation is the most terrible time ever of unjust persecution, it does not follow that it come lightly.

1. There will be a "Daniel Test" - worship or die.
-- a.)This means that normal movement may be highly limited as checkpoints or other government interaction could take place at transportational nodal points like airports, train stations, bus stations, and highways.  Going downtown may have severe consequences, especially if the populace, which is most wicked, is also on guard to inquire whether or not you're with them.
-- b.) With the advent of computers, the likeness of the talking image could be presented anywhere there is cell phone coverage and via computers again, could "live stream" your face-to-face encounter.

2. No buying or selling.

On 7/25/2016 at 7:40 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth.
·         Only after the sixth Seal is broken is the seventh Seal broken.
·         Then, and only then, when all the Seals have been broken, can the Scroll, where “desolations have been decreed” from 2500 years ago (Dan 9:26), be read, and only then does the First Trumpet of seven even sound.
·         And then, and only then, do we see “desolations” of Biblical proportions inflicted upon creation which in turn creates hardship for the wicked left upon the earth.

The Church is not to endure these conditions:

The elect of the Church will not endure the "Daniel Test," nor anything having to do with the Beast Kingdom, all of which do not begin until the period of the 7 Trumpets. As you correctly state, "The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth," and, "The Church is not to endure these conditions."