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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

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Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

 

William: Good points; but the same could be said about people's various pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib positions. That is why I stuck to the essence of pre-wrath in post #20: the Rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th Seal, and after its great heavenly and earthly cataclysms, the same ones that Jesus foretold in Matt. 24:29. Immediately after these, Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven, he Raptures his Church, and then his Wrath begins. "For God did not appoint us to wrath," 1 Thes. 5:9. Ezra is correct about this, but pre-tribbers equate the Great Tribulation with the Wrath of God, which is incorrect.

 

The Great Tribulation is actually the beginning of the wrath of Satan, after he is "cast to the earth, and his angels with him, " Rev. 12:9, therefore "having great wrath, knowing that he has a short time," 12:12. The very first judgment of God in the End Times, as it was in the time of the Exodus, is the judgment of the gods/elohim: Rev. 12:9 is the fulfillment of this. Also foretold in Psalm 82:1 --  "[Elohim] God stands in the congregation of [El] God, he judges among the elohim." Also Isaiah 24:21 -- "It shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones..."

 

 

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

The whole 70th week and 3.5 years/1260 days interpretation is included by the most popular version of pre-wrath doctrine, whose leading proponent is Marvin Rosenthal. Other teachers of pre-wrath, including myself, reject the inclusion of this position.

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[At this time, you may not accept the pre-wrath-post-trib teaching. But it does not hurt to keep an open mind, just in case coming world events change your thinking. So, why don't you copy-past-print this Crib Sheet onto a single page of paper, and keep it around?]

 

Through “types and shadows” (allegories), the Old Testament portrays both the First and Second Comings of Jesus Christ. One such prophetic allegory is found within the history of the time just before, when, and after Solomon became king.

This Crib Sheet is a synopsis of how those ancient biblical events reveal End Time events. For the complete story, go to my website, shown below in my signature.

 

 

End Times Crib Sheet
 

This summary of the Kingdoms article shows the essential Second Coming events in sequence. Additions are in {brackets}.

 

Events at the time Solomon came into his kingdom presage End Time events when Christ comes into his Kingdom.

Solomon was a type and foreshadower of Jesus. Both men were literally Princes of Peace. Gods promises to David about Solomon – to establish his throne forever, he to be Davids seed, he to build the house of the LORD, he to be Gods son – apply equally and ultimately to Jesus Christ.

 

The Great Tribulation of the End Times and the Seals of Revelation 6

In the days of David and Solomon, “Satan stood up against Israel…” // In the Latter Days, “The Dragon [satan] stood before the Woman [Church]…”

1st Seal: King David, due to a Satan-inspired pride of power, mustered his whole army. // In Revelation 6, the White Horse sets out to conquer: rising up of self-exalting false christs.

2nd - 4th Seals: David was confronted with “famine, sword, and plague;” // the same as the 3rd, 2nd, and 4th Seals of Rev. 6.

5th Seal: Innocent Israelites were killed in Davids day; // martyrs are slain in the Latter Days.

6th Seal: In Davids day, the Angel of the LORD appeared to David and others, “standing between earth and heaven.” People fell on their faces and hid themselves, greatly afraid. God then cut short their period of tribulation. // In the Latter Days, Christ appears “in the clouds.” People see his face; many hide themselves, greatly afraid. The Great Tribulation is cut short.

 

The Rapture(s)

David and his elders – the elect of Israel – were called to “go up” onto holy Mount Moriah. {After being sanctified “from heaven by fire,” they returned to work below. 1 Chr. 21:26} // The 144,000 – the elect Israel – are “caught up” to the heavenly Mount Zion. {After receiving “the seal of the living God,” they return to work below. Rev. 7:2f.; 9:1-4}

{David and the others found Ornan up on Mount Moriah; he had been “threshing wheat” in the presence of the Angel of the LORD. 1 Chr. 21:20-21 // The Manchild of Rev. 12 has been “caught up” and has begun its (their) work some time before the Rapture of the elect. Rev. 12:5, 10-11}

Davids servants took up a virgin to his palace in Jerusalem. // The Lords angelic servants take up the Virgin Church to the Fathers house in heavenly Jerusalem.

David “gathered together all the leaders of Israel,” and ordered their service on Earth before God. // The Lord “gathers together his elect,” and orders their service in heaven before God.

 

The Era of Revelations Trumpets and the Beast

Adonijah exalted himself to be king over all Israel: this in direct defiance of King David and his court. // The Beast of Revelation 13, via his “Mouth(piece),” exalts himself to be ruler over all nations: he openly defies God and his heavenly host.

Adonijahs chief supporters were a renegade earthly priest, Abiathar, and a power-wielding strongman, Joab. // The Beasts chief supporters are a renegade heavenly priest, Satan, and the power-wielding False Prophet.

A trumpet was blown, Solomon was loudly proclaimed king, the earth shook. // The 7th Trumpet is blown, Christ is loudly proclaimed King, an earthquake follows.

 

The Era of Revelation’s Bowls and the Judgment of the Beast

After a period of time, Adonijah rose up once more. Solomon sentenced him and his strongman to death, and banished his rebellious allied priest. // At the 6th and 7th Bowls, the Beast attempts his final usurpation. Christ sentences him and his strongman False Prophet to the second death, and banishes the renegade heavenly priest Satan to the Abyss.

 

The Millennial Temple

His kingdom then fully secured, Solomon built a great temple in Jerusalem. // His Kingdom fully secured, Christ establishes a great temple in Jerusalem.

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If I understand correctly this thread is for those who interpret end-time prophecy with a post-trib rapture that happens before the wrath of God poured out in the 7 bowls of Revelation. Since there is a thread on the post-trib already I'll concentrate more on the wrath of God.

Here's how I see the way Revelation is laid out. 

Outline of Revelation

 

I. Chapters 1-7 (Seven seals) Bird's eye view of time from John's day to New Heaven and New Earth 
     A. 1-3 Intro and Seven Churches
     B. 4-7 Six seals and prep for seventh seal

II. Chapters 8-14 (Seven trumpets) Zeroing in on the period of great tribulation and rapture
     A. 8-11 Seventh seal and Seven trumpets of the tribulation
     B. 12-14 The Woman, the Dragon, the Beast, and the Rapture

III. Chapters 15-22 (Seven vials) Zeroing in on wrath of God, the Millennium, Battle of Gog and Magog, and the New Heavens and New Earth.
     A. 15-16 Seven vials of God's Wrath
     B. 17-19 Mystery Babylon, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, Beast and False Prophet defeated
     C. 20-22 Millenium, Battle of Gog and Magog, White Throne Judgement, and New Heaven and New Earth

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc., and the second is at the end of the Millennium when the battle with Gog and Magog occurs. This can be seen by looking at the descriptions. There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29. Verses 14-17 are similar to Rev. 16:20-21 and both point to a time when there will be no more seas (Rev 21:1) which happens at the end of the Millennium.

The seventh seal opens up the 7 trumpets which the first six I see as all occurring during the GT. The seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15) however, sounded maybe at the same time or, if not, right after the two witnesses ascend to heaven, starts with the rapture (Rev 14:14-16) and then follows with the bowls of God's wrath (Rev 14:17-20, 15:1). 

I could go into the bowls and how they play out, but I don't think that would be necessary for this particular thread. I will say, however, that similar to the sixth seal that includes two separate events that occur at different time periods, so it is with the seventh bowl. It covers the return of Jesus at the B of A shortly after the rapture of the saints, and also the battle at the end of the Millennium with Gog and Magog. 

Edited by toknowthetruth

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The pre-wrath rapture theory views the trumpet and the bowl judgments (Revelation 7–16) as the wrath of God, from which the church is exempted (1 Thessalonians 5:9). However, the first six seal judgments (Revelation 6) are not considered the wrath of God; rather, they are viewed as “the wrath of Satan” or “the wrath of the antichrist.” This is because there is no direct mention of God’s wrath until after the sixth seal is broken (Revelation 6:17). According to the pre-wrath rapture theory, the church will be present to experience the first six seals.

Comparing Revelation 6 with Matthew 24, the pre-wrath rapture theorists identify the first seal judgments with Jesus’ description of the end times in Matthew 24:4-7. Jesus then refers to these events as “the beginning of birth pains” (verse 8). In verses 29 and 30, “the sign of the Son of Man” appears in the sky, and it is at this time, according to the pre-wrath rapture theory, that the rapture of the church occurs.

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:2231are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:56:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.


http://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

Edited by bopeep1909

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The pre-wrath rapture theory views the trumpet and the bowl judgments (Revelation 7–16) as the wrath of God, from which the church is exempted (1 Thessalonians 5:9). However, the first six seal judgments (Revelation 6) are not considered the wrath of God; rather, they are viewed as “the wrath of Satan” or “the wrath of the antichrist.” This is because there is no direct mention of God’s wrath until after the sixth seal is broken (Revelation 6:17). According to the pre-wrath rapture theory, the church will be present to experience the first six seals.

Comparing Revelation 6 with Matthew 24, the pre-wrath rapture theorists identify the first seal judgments with Jesus’ description of the end times in Matthew 24:4-7. Jesus then refers to these events as “the beginning of birth pains” (verse 8). In verses 29 and 30, “the sign of the Son of Man” appears in the sky, and it is at this time, according to the pre-wrath rapture theory, that the rapture of the church occurs.

http://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

One thing you forgot to mention about pre-wrath that every other end time belief leaves out is that in Joel 2:31 it states a event that will occur before the day of the Lord or God's wrath. Those of us who believe in pre-wrath believe this is the 6th seal. It's the 6th seal or 4th trumpet. No other end time belief even addresses this verse that clearly states an event will happen before for the Day of the Lord/ God's wrath begins. 

Edited by firestormx

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The pre-wrath rapture theory views the trumpet and the bowl judgments (Revelation 7–16) as the wrath of God, from which the church is exempted (1 Thessalonians 5:9). However, the first six seal judgments (Revelation 6) are not considered the wrath of God; rather, they are viewed as “the wrath of Satan” or “the wrath of the antichrist.” This is because there is no direct mention of God’s wrath until after the sixth seal is broken (Revelation 6:17). According to the pre-wrath rapture theory, the church will be present to experience the first six seals.

Comparing Revelation 6 with Matthew 24, the pre-wrath rapture theorists identify the first seal judgments with Jesus’ description of the end times in Matthew 24:4-7. Jesus then refers to these events as “the beginning of birth pains” (verse 8). In verses 29 and 30, “the sign of the Son of Man” appears in the sky, and it is at this time, according to the pre-wrath rapture theory, that the rapture of the church occurs.

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:2231are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:56:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.


http://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

Oh, I'm sorry. From the title it seemed like it was talking about defending a post trib that happens before the wrath. Guess I was a bit confused. I will start my own thread and move my post there. Thanks.

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Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

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After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days)

 

While this is true, it is also true that the Temple will be desecrated for 2,300 days which is about 6 years and 4 months (Dan 8:12-14), which is almost the total of Daniel's 70th week, and the Lord did say that those days (7 years) would be shortened for the sake of the elect: 

 

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

This prophecy would suggest that the period of wrath extends throughout the full seven years, which includes "the transgression", so "pre-wrath" could not equal "mid-trib".

I'm not sure we can say for certain that different time frames run either successively, or concurrently. In this case there is nothing suggesting, from the vision itself, or the interpretation of the vision, that the 70th week and the 2300 days run concurrently. It's just as possible the 2300 days begins at the A of D and runs to some point in the millennial kingdom. I think the vision itself suggests just such a scenario. Since the two saints were speaking and the one asked the other about the vision concerning only the daily sacrifice, the transgression that makes desolate, and the desecration of the sanctuary and the host, it stands to reason that the 2300 days concerns only these events. The questioning saint didn't ask about any other events so it's logical to conclude the saint was asking only about the above 4 events and no other. So, it could  be that the 2300 days begins at the A of D, or the moment the daily sacrifice begins in the New Temple, but clearly not at the beginning of the 70th week, and then runs through the 2nd half of the week and into the Reign of Jesus.

I just cannot see any suggestion from scripture that wrath extends for the full 7 years of the 70th week. In fact there is no hint, suggestion or implication from the above posted passage concerning 'wrath', 'seven years', or 'the 70th week', nor is there a hint, suggestion or implication that directs us to connect the 2300 days with 'wrath', 'seven years', or 'the 70th week'. The only connection that I see from the passage is that the 2300 days concerns the daily sacrifice, the transgression and the trampling of the sanctuary and host, and that the 2300 hundred days is counting down during the events of the end of the age.

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Odd, I always thought of the pre-wrath as a nuanced post-trib position, although I did have a book once that detailed it as a nuanced pre-trib position. Is the term pre-wrath copyrighted or is there an official Pre-Wrath Association which can define it? Hard to defend something if once doesn't even know the position's specifics.

According to the great theology site Wikipedia:

 

The Prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end-times events among evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath (God's wrath). The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

According to the Prewrath perspective, the great tribulation begins 3.5 years after the Antichrist "makes a covenant with the many" (Daniel 9:27), in the middle of "Daniel's 70th week." The 70th week is a reference to Daniel 9:24, where each day of the week corresponds to a year (for a total of seven years). After the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will make himself known with the abomination that causes desolation, and he will reign for 3.5 years (42 months or 1260 days). The latter half of the 3.5 years is characterized by the Antichrist deceiving the world and persecuting the church.

Hi,

Love this discussion and I just have to chime in. The pre-wrath thing is something I have studied out over the decades since I first became acquainted with the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. At first I read every book I could find on the subject, all were pre-trib. That position always left me unsettled, as if I was somehow in the right crowd, in the know as it were, but still incomplete and searching. So much of the pre-trib position comes from the bias of certain ideas that have been rationalized into existence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing pre-trib, though there is much there to bash, this is just an introduction by way of a little history. In any case I stumbled across a book by M. Rosenthal that helped me to search in a different way, and the eyes of my heart were opened! In all the study i did over the years the only 'rapture' that makes sense, from all the verses related to such an event, is the one we like to call pre-wrath. Some seem to think it's also a post trib event but I think the trib continues until the 70 weeks is complete, though the tribulation of the saints is over at the coming of Jesus, or pre Wrath of God, probably why this rapture is called post-trib by some.

The objection I have to the above Wiki quote has to do with this statement:  states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Beginning of Sorrows that occurs in the first half of the seventieth week of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, and before the day of the Lord's wrath

Pre-wrath actually states that believers are gathered at the end of 'great tribulation' and before the wrath of God falls, and this on the same day, likely moments before the Wrath of God begins at the Day of the Lord. "Great tribulation" begins at the middle of the 70th week when the beginning of sorrows ends. Believers endure 'great tribulation' for a period of less than 3.5 years until the Lord returns to gather us up and fight against the rebellious armies of the world.

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion!

Hmm. I'm a little confused? OK, so if I get you right pre-wrath is similar to post-trib, just that you consider the wrath as part of the 3.5 years and that the rapture happens just before the wrath a little before the end of the 3.5 years of the last week of Daniel?

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This is the last trump:

 

Rev:11:15

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

 If you look at the text, it says that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, this is the moment of the Rapture, but should be biblically called the Resurrection, at the last day.  The church has strayed from or fallen away from this understanding of the Resurrection.  If you look at the sequences of events before this chapter and verse, the manchild, which is the chosen two witnesses, the group that will go out in power showing great signs and wonders in the name of the Lord, many will be martyred and will be caught up to the throne, as is written in

 

 Rev 11:7-12

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

 

The portion of scripture in bold is where the manchild is caught up to heaven.  This is the Resurrection (Rapture of the living) and then the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, this will be the First and more Blessed Resurrection where these who take part in the First Resurrection will be the Saints to Rule and Reign with Christ for the 1,000 years.  This reign is described in the first scripture I posted where The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  AMEN!!

Are you sure? What about this?"

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." From this we see the second woe is actually the two witnesses and they are brought to heaven before the third woe and before the 7th trumpet. And then there is this:"

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" This is quite different from the events surrounding the resurrection of the two witnesses. In addition, just after the 6th seal is opened the signs of the coming of the Son of Man appear marking the beginning of the wrath of God(same as the 7th trumpet, incidentally), so believers have to be gathered up at this point before the wrath but after the 6th seal opens and at the 7th trumpet before the wrath of God begins. But these two resurrections are very different as the events surrounding them show. Also, the scripture seems to intimate the two witnesses appear in the first half of the week. They do not testify after the Wrath of God begins as they are resurrected before the wrath begins. Since the two witnesses, "3 ... prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." and 1260 days is equal to half of the 70 week, it seems that their ministry will be over at the mid point of the week when the beast comes to power. He could not slay them before this because he had not come to power. The beast does come to power at the mid point and so is able to finally kill the two witnesses.

For all these reasons the witnesses cannot be analogous to the raptured believers.

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