Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Last Daze]

16 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

What we do have is a whole set of differences which buttress a determination to separate the two.

The Last Trumpet is:

1. Blown by God
2. A named Trumpet
3. An assembly trumpet
4. The "last call" for Salvation

The seventh Trumpet is:

1. Blown by an Angel
2. A numbered Trumpet
3. An announcement trumpet
4. Announces the final desolation against the wicked

So, no, in this specific instance, the same action cannot have two different results.

Couldn't the last trumpet be part of what happens after the seventh angel sounds?

Couldn't the seventh angel sound his trumpet, and then the Lord descends to the clouds to sound the trumpet of God?

[Last Daze]

deleted double post.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Last Daze

[WilliamL]

The seven angels do not blow the shofar of God, like as was blown at Mount Sinai, because angels are merely messengers.

Only God, as God-in-Christ, blows the shofar of God, because only He will know the day and the hour of Judgment. Angels are not given to know or have authority to announce that time.

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Remember: 

• Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet.
• An Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet

And:

• Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet to awaken the Dead in Christ.
• An Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet to announce God's Wrath.

This is mostly correct, with the correction that God's Wrath has already begun by this time. This is so stated at the 6th Seal:

Rev. 6:17 ...the great Day of thy Wrath came [aorist verb: simple past tense]...

This is repeated at the 7th Trumpet, referring back to the Judgment begun at the 6th Seal:

11:17 ...Your Wrath came [aorist verb: simple past tense]...

The Bowls then fulfill/complete/bring to an end that Wrath:

Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This is mostly correct, with the correction that God's Wrath has already begun by this time. This is so stated at the 6th Seal:

Rev. 6:17 ...the great Day of thy Wrath came [aorist verb: simple past tense]...

Mostly correct?  What I said WAS correct.  

• Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet and those who hear, awaken from death.
• And Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet and the Third Woe begins.

However, to say God's Wrath came with the events of the sixth Seal, is not quite correct; which is a nice way of saying it is incorrect.

The Aorist tense in Greek is not simple past tense.

The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.   http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/grkindex.htm 

So it has not already begun by the sixth Seal.
The only physical, earthly event which happens with the sixth Seal are two earthquakes; one to shake things up before the sun/moon/star sign, and the second when Jesus alights upon the earth.

Rev 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

This second one reflects what is revealed later in the detailed, parallel account of just the one 'seven' in chapters 13 to 16 (inclusive):

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty- four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.  ~ This happens before the Harvest just as the 144,000 are mentioned with the sixth Seal as coming before the Great Multitude are before the Father in Heaven on His Throne (in the Temple).

And this sighting of Jesus on the earth was seen by the prophet Zechariah (and Isaiah) in the Old Testament.  (Isaiah omits the splitting portion which displaces every other reference point on the earth.)

Zec 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Now how does that move everything?  Here is a scientific geological study of the earth's displacement of every single point of the entire earth that happened with a significant earthquake underneath the Indian Ocean.

Sumatra Quake Shook Earth’s Total Surface
By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, Associated Press Writer
May 19, 2005

WASHINGTON - December's great Sumatra-Andaman earthquake — the most powerful in more than 40 years and the trigger of a devastating tsunami — shook the ground everywhere on Earth's surface. Weeks later the planet was still trembling.

They said the higher sea floor displaced so much water from the Bay of Bengal and the Andaman Sea that sea level worldwide was raised 0.004 inch.

"No point on Earth remained undisturbed," wrote Roger Bilham of the University of Colorado.

Indeed, ground movement of as much as 0.4 inch occurred everywhere on Earth's surface, though it was too small to be felt in most areas.

And the temblor "delivered a blow to our planet" that was felt for weeks, noted a team of researchers led by Jeffrey Park of Yale University.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 6:17 ...the great Day of thy Wrath came [aorist verb: simple past tense]...

11:17 ...Your Wrath came [aorist verb: simple past tense]...

WHO says: "for the great day of their wrath has come" BEFORE any of the seven Trumpets sound?
The kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man.

Who says: "and Your wrath came" AFTER the seventh Trumpet sounds?
The 24 Elders.

Now who are you going to trust to convey what is happening with God's Plan?
~ The ones who have taken the mark of the beast and worshiped the talking image, who were told by the third of three Angels (Rev 14:9-11) that they were going to suffer for it,
~ or 24 Elders who have preceded us into Heaven and have been the Father and the Lamb for some two thousand years now?

The wicked of the earth will mourn on the Day Jesus comes!  Why?  Because they only care about themselves and their wickedness.  When Jesus comes, they know they have a price to pay because on the waiting portion of the Day of the Lord, when the sun is covered by clouds starting at noon, the third of three Angels tells the wicked what will soon come to pass.  That's why they "know" 'God's Wrath has come' -- the sun/moon/star event is unmistakably from God and they fear losing their lives - they're only interested in saving their butts at this point.

But that's not what happens first when Jesus comes.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Couldn't the last trumpet be part of what happens after the seventh angel sounds?

Couldn't the seventh angel sound his trumpet, and then the Lord descends to the clouds to sound the trumpet of God?

It could.

I am not one to destroy another's belief structure.
There are people who are out to do that.
I understand that those who post, hardly ever change what they think. 
I have seen folk be refuted point-blank with an error they have committed in reading and interpreting a single verse - and subsequently they refuse to budge from their error.

So I understand that I am not going to force anyone to change their eschatological thinking/belief structure.

All I can do is link Scripture together to try and show you, that the sole mention of the Last Trumpet by Paul in 1st Corinthians is synonymous with the Day of the Lord, and that is revealed as being coincidental with the events which transpire when the sixth Seal is opened by Jesus.  I can (again) post a paper making the linkages from 1st Corinthians to 1st Thessalonians to the Olivet Discourse, to Revelation, if you desire.

The Last Trumpet happens with the Day of the Lord.
As a Pre-Wrath adherent, I place the unknown Day of the Lord as happening:

• After the midpoint
• After the SHORTENED Great Tribulation
• BEFORE any of the Trumpets sound.
• Well before the end of the one 'seven'

I do NOT name a day.  I do not "time" the Day of the Lord.
I think that the classical Post-Trib eschatological view's of a "last day" Day of the Lord does that.
I think that is a internal inconsistency of their Scriptural interpretation in forming their eschatology.
~ This criticism has never caused such a person to change their position...

I look to the Great Multitude assembled in Heaven before the Father as representative of the end result of the Harvest of Revelation 14:14-16, and the gathering of the Elect in Mt 24:31.

Thus, I say the Last Trumpet cannot be part of what happens after the seventh Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet.
We're not on the earth during God's Wrath; Rev 3:10 is often cited as saying we could be, but a close examination of that verse does not warrant such an interpretation.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This is mostly correct, with the correction that God's Wrath has already begun by this time. This is so stated at the 6th Seal:

Rev. 6:17 ...the great Day of thy Wrath came [aorist verb: simple past tense]...

Mostly correct?  What I said WAS correct.  

• Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet and those who hear, awaken from death.
• And Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet and the Third Woe begins.

However, to say God's Wrath came with the events of the sixth Seal, is not quite correct; which is a nice way of saying it is incorrect.

The Aorist tense in Greek is not simple past tense.

The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.   http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/grkindex.htm 

So it has not already begun by the sixth Seal.

The aorist verb I quoted from Rev. 6:17 [above] is "In the indicative mood [which] denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

Thank you for backing up what I said in your quote, even if you don't understand it.

[Last Daze]

40 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

The Last Trumpet happens with the Day of the Lord.

As a Pre-Wrath adherent, I place the unknown Day of the Lord as happening:

• After the midpoint
• After the SHORTENED Great Tribulation
• BEFORE any of the Trumpets sound.
• Well before the end of the one 'seven'

I do NOT name a day.  I do not "time" the Day of the Lord.
I think that the classical Post-Trib eschatological view's of a "last day" Day of the Lord does that.
I think that is a internal inconsistency of their Scriptural interpretation in forming their eschatology.
~ This criticism has never caused such a person to change their position...

I look to the Great Multitude assembled in Heaven before the Father as representative of the end result of the Harvest of Revelation 14:14-16, and the gathering of the Elect in Mt 24:31.

Thus, I say the Last Trumpet cannot be part of what happens after the seventh Angel sounds the seventh Trumpet.
We're not on the earth during God's Wrath; Rev 3:10 is often cited as saying we could be, but a close examination of that verse does not warrant such an interpretation.

I agree that it happens on the day of the Lord.  Is there a scripture in the OT where God sounds a trumpet that fits your scenario, one that could be called the last trumpet?  If not, what reference was Paul making with the last trumpet, the trumpet of God?

When do you think the following happens:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

This references a trumpet that God sounds.  Is there one that comes after this one?

The Lord appears over them (in the clouds?) and arrows go forth like lightning (lightning at the seventh trumpet) and the Lord brings salvation in that day.

I understand that most people's minds are already made up, however, if you can quote an OT passage that tells of God sounding a trumpet that more closely matches the description of our gathering to Him, I'll certainly consider it.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Are you kidding me?

No.  
The purpose of any particular Trumpet blast is singular.

Jesus blows the Last Trumpet.
An Angel blows the seventh Trumpet.

One is an assembly Trumpet
The other is an announcement Trumpet.

Those are inconvenient facts you don't address!

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Have you even HEARD a shofar blast?

Yes.  It is a single note with a "starting" tone, a primary tone, and an optional "ending" tone depending on the use of the sounder's breath.

It cannot change its tone.  It has one note.  
That is why the only differentiation comes with the timing of one's breath, or limiting of one's breath, or the acceleration of one's breath.

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You just don't want to admit it's the SAME BLAST!

You just went through the series of modern uses of the shofar.

To equate the series of blasts that are used in the Rosh ha-Shannah ceremony which has NINE repetitions of 11 different variations with one final blast - as ALL being the SAME BLAST 
~ is pure SPIN.

• I'm used to your tortured rationalizations which allow you to make a pyramid on the earth for the New Heaven and New Earth's dwelling place we are to have with God.
• I'm used to your various renditions of the Hebrew language which differ from every recognized Hebrew expert.
• I'm used to your use of them to such an extent to be as legalistically precise that you actually fail to communicate.

However, I will never be able to convince you of anything.  Likewise, your equations have little effect upon me because I don't automatically jump down each and every of your rabbit holes.

Now, here is something:

In the scriptures however, thetekiah or tekiah gedolah is simply referred to as a long, sustained blast. This simple call was the signal to Moses and the people of Israel to come to the base of the Mt. Sinai (Exodus 19:13) and the call sounded by the priests at the famous battle of Jericho (Joshua 6:5).

The second of the Biblical calls sounded by the shofar is the teruah. In this instance, the underlying etymology of the Hebrew word appears to be its apparent mimicking of the verbal shout of war. Unlike the single tone of thetekiah, the teruah consists of short (i.e., staccato), rapid blasts on the primary tone (Leviticus 25:9).

So let me ask you some questions:

• Have you ever heard the Lord blow the Last Trumpet?
• Have you ever heard an Angel blow any Trumpet?
• Seeing that you have heard neither: How can you say the two trumpets, blown by different individuals ~ is the SAME BLAST?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Thank you for backing up what I said in your quote, even if you don't understand it.

I don't think you understand what I understand.

You cannot show God's Wrath upon the earth at the sixth Seal like with the Trumpet Judgments, which are desolations (not plagues).

You did not address the issue of WHO said Rev 6:17, and the veracity of their statement conveyed truthfully by John.