Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The type:

Ex. 19:20 Then the LORD came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. ... 20:18 Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled [JPS: fell back] and stood afar off.

The antitype:

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout...

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain [Sinai] that may be touched and that burned with fire... 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn... 25 See that you do not shun/avoid Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who shunned/avoided Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven...

Not the earthly Jerusalem, nor the earthly Mount Zion: the heavenly ones.

Gal. 4:24 ...the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above [and correspondingly, the Mount Zion above] is free, which is the mother of us all.

Shabbat shalom, WilliamL.

Well, first, there's an interesting thing that one can see in the Greek wording of Hebrews 12:22. Here's the Greek:

Pros Hebraious 12:22-24
22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei
23 kai ekkleesia proototokoon apogegrommenoon en ouranois kai kritee Theoo pantoon kai pneumasi dikaioon teteleioomenoon
24 kai diatheekees neas Mesitee Ieesou kai haimati rantismou kreitton lalounti para ton Habel.
UBS The Greek New Testament

22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = ye-are-approaching
Sioon = Zion (Tsiown)
orei = a-mountain
kai = and
polei = a-city
Theou = of-God
zoontos, = living,
Ierousaleem = Jerusalem (Yerushalayim)
epouranioo, = of-or-belonging-to-above-the-sky
kai = and
muriasin = a-myriad
aggeloon, = of-messengers,
paneegurei = a-mass-meeting
23 kai = 23 and
ekkleesia = called-out-[group]
proototokoon = of-firstborn-[sons]
apogegrommenoon = checked-off
en = in
ouranois = [the]-sky
kai = and
kritee = a-Judge
Theoo = for-God
pantoon = of-all
kai = and
pneumasi = breaths/winds/voiced-dispositions
dikaioon = of-[the]-justified
teteleioomenoon = made-complete
24 kai = 24 and
diatheekees = a-covenant
neas = new
Mesitee = Mediator
Ieesou = Jesus (Yeshua`)
kai = and
haimati = blood
rantismou = of-sprinkling
kreitton = better-[things]
lalounti = that-speaks
para = beyond
ton = that
Habel. = of-Abel (of-Hevel).

Notice that the kai (and) is closely tied to orei (a mountain) and polei (a city), both in the same case! This is not just a conjunction between two phrases; it's a conjunction between the two words! Thus, the mountain IS the city, or rather, the city IS the mountain! This Jerusalem from-above-the-sky is both a mountain AND a city! And, that's appropriate for a city that has a physical height of 1,500 MILES and whose outer wall is shaped like a giant pyramid!

Second, the Greek word "proseleeluthate" is the 2nd Perfect Indicative Active form of "proserchomai" (meaning "I approach") with the 2nd Person Plural ending. Thus, it means "ye are approaching and are still approaching." It is both punctilinear AND durative; however, it is the MEANING of the base word itself that puts it into the future. It does NOT mean that "you have already arrived!"

Third, don't equate this passage with Galatians 4. They are NOT talking about the same thing! Verse 26 below is NOT a reference to the New Jerusalem as compared to the old city; it's a reference to the city of Jerusalem (situated upon Mount Zion in the first century), from which came the New Covenant, as compared to Mount Sinai, from which came the old.

Galatians 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (Ishmael) by a bondmaid (Hagar), the other (Isaac) by a freewoman (Sarah).
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar (Hagar).
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh (Ishmael) persecuted him that was born after the Spirit (Isaac), even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son (Ishmael) of the bondwoman (Hagar) shall not be heir with the son (Isaac) of the freewoman (Sarah).
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

What this passage is intended to mean is that those who struggle to fulfill the Torah under the first covenant are just as guilty as Avraham and Sarah were when they tried to MANIPULATE the "promise" into being by using Hagar, Sarah's handmaid, to get the job done! Rather than wait for God's miracle, they attempted to have a son by purely natural means, using a common practice of the Gentiles around them - namely, to allow a handmaid of a woman be the mother of a child for the woman. That was NEVER to be a part of God's promised son!

In the same way, the New Covenant was to be based upon God DECLARING individuals "righteous" rather than the individuals attempting to be righteous in their own power.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...don't equate this passage with Galatians 4. They are NOT talking about the same thing! Verse 26 below is NOT a reference to the New Jerusalem as compared to the old city; it's a reference to the city of Jerusalem (situated upon Mount Zion in the first century), from which came the New Covenant, as compared to Mount Sinai, from which came the old.

Roy, again you give us another long-winded and tortured language lesson all to preserve your earthly, man-centered view of heaven-on-earth.

While you try to dictate terms and conditions, still others have another sense.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, " Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

There is a distinct schism between Man and God. 
There is a distinct schism between Earth and Heaven.
There is a distinct schism between Hagar and Sarah.
There is a distinct schism between Ismael and Isaac.
There is a distinct schism between Mount Sinai and Mount Zion.
There is a distinct schism between the Law and the Gospel.
There is a distinct schism between Judaism and Christianity.
There is a distinct schism between Adam and Jesus.
There is a distinct schism between this Earth and the New Earth.
There is a distinct schism between Religion and Spirituality.

So if some of us want to envision Heaven as something not of this world, which is what the sky is; we need not maintain your view, which I see as earth-centered.

So allow me, and others, to view these two verses as referencing the same thing, because I and others do.

Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Answer these questions:

• Where did Jesus go when He ascended?  
• What altitude did He stop at in your view?  
• How many miles up did He go before He stopped?  
• Is Jesus stuck at that same spot?
• Where is He right now?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Roy, again you give us another long-winded and tortured language lesson all to preserve your earthly, man-centered view of heaven-on-earth.

While you try to dictate terms and conditions, still others have another sense.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, " Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

There is a distinct schism between Man and God. 
There is a distinct schism between Earth and Heaven.
There is a distinct schism between Hagar and Sarah.
There is a distinct schism between Ismael and Isaac.
There is a distinct schism between Mount Sinai and Mount Zion.
There is a distinct schism between the Law and the Gospel.
There is a distinct schism between Judaism and Christianity.
There is a distinct schism between Adam and Jesus.
There is a distinct schism between this Earth and the New Earth.
There is a distinct schism between Religion and Spirituality.

So if some of us want to envision Heaven as something not of this world, which is what the sky is; we need not maintain your view, which I see as earth-centered.

So allow me, and others, to view these two verses as referencing the same thing, because I and others do.

Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Answer these questions:

• Where did Jesus go when He ascended?  
• What altitude did He stop at in your view?  
• How many miles up did He go before He stopped?  
• Is Jesus stuck at that same spot?
• Where is He right now?

Shabbat shalom, Marcus (Mark).

• Where did Jesus (Yeshua`) go when He ascended?

He went up THROUGH the sky (ouranos, "heaven"), behind a cloud, and was lost to sight (Acts 1:6-11).

Acts 1:6-11
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, are you now restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
7 He said to them, "It isn't for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set within His own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. You will be witnesses to me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth."
9 When he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 While they were looking steadfastly into the sky as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white clothing,
11 who also said, "You men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who was received up from you into the sky will come back in the same way as you saw him going into the sky."
WEB

However, He went to His Father's House - the New Jerusalem, the tabernacle (Bedouin tent) of God (Revelation 21:1-4), an "epouranios" city (Hebrews 12:22) - a city being built in the region "above the sky" where the sun, moon, and stars exist. (1 Corinthians 15:40-41) The New Jerusalem is in space. He went there to "prepare us a place." (John 14:1-3)

• What altitude did He stop at in your view?
• How many miles up did He go before He stopped?

How should I know? The Bible doesn't give us that information. It's high enough that it's out of earth's sight, even with our best telescopes, if we are able to look in the right direction.

• Is Jesus (Yeshua`) stuck at that same spot?
• Where is He right now?

"Stuck?" Hardly. As I said, He is preparing a place for us. He is both the Creator and a carpenter. However, He awaits His Father's command to return to earth and to deliver His people, Israel, when the time is right. He is busy right now, preparing a room/mansion for each of us - a tribute for what God has done for each of us - within His Father's House, as He said He would.

On the other hand, He may already be en route back to earth, if His Father has seen fit to send Him, that is, if the timing is right.

He shall arrive a thousand years before His city does. So, Yeshua` shall be reigning from His father David's throne right here in the current Yerushalayim, Yisra'el, for that first 1000 years of His reign.

When the New Jerusalem - Yerushalayim haChadashah - arrives after the global Fire, it will be so huge that, if centered at the current location of Jerusalem, it covers all the lands of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, half of Turkey, part of Iran, and part of Saudi Arabia, not to mention cover a third of the Mediterranean Sea!

In winter, one could go out of the northern gates and find snow, or one could go out of the southern gates and find subtropical weather like that of the Caribbean Islands!

Genesis 8:21
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
KJV

Psalm 104:1-5
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV

Ecclesiastes 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

Believe what you want to believe; no one is stopping you ... yet. However, you should know that exactly ONE outcome will happen; so, somebody will be right and somebody will be wrong. Maybe EVERYBODY will be wrong! After all, we ALL have "blind spots." But, this is the only way that I can see all the Scripture verses that I've read - all the puzzle pieces - working out in sync, particularly in light of the meaning of the Greek words. After all, the oldest versions of the New Testament that we have were written in Koine Greek! 

Whenever one language is translated into another, translation errors are introduced, usually innocently enough. The transition from Greek to the English language is no different; therefore, I conclude that it would be much more accurate to understand the Scriptures from their Greek versions rather than the English versions.

By the way, your "schisms" don't need to be so "polar." "Earth" and "heaven" may simply be "the solid and liquid parts" and "the gaseous parts" of our planet. If you would take the time to investigate the Hebrew text of Genesis 1 and 2, you could come to the same conclusions. When one recognizes that Genesis 1:1 is a summary of what is to follow, one will learn that "the heaven" (or "the heavens," which is a more literal translation of "hashaamayim") was not created until Day 2. "The earth" (Hebrew: "ha'arets") was not created until Day 3.

Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.
KJV

Genesis 1:6-8
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament "Heaven." And the evening and the morning were the second day.
KJV

Genesis 1:9-13
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land "Earth"; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
KJV

Also, we are told that this "Heaven" was where the birds were free to fly:

Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
KJV

Day 4 may confuse some people UNTIL one learns that this account of Creation is not talking about the "sun, moon, and stars" but the "LIGHTS FROM the sun, moon, and stars" being created in the firmament of "Heaven":

Genesis 1:14-19
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
KJV

So, it's not so far fetched to think of "heaven" as "the sky," at least in the OT. Also, it's not so far fetched in the NT, either, because we have passages like Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

And, all four highlighted words above are from the Greek word "ouranos." When one takes a form of "ouranos" and adds the prefix "meso-" meaning "middle of," one arrives at the word "mesouraneema," which is only used three times in Scripture, all within the book of Revelation:

Revelation 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
KJV

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
KJV

Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
KJV

The first two are talking about "angels" flying in the "mesouraneema," but 19:18 talks about the "BIRDS" ("fowls") flying in the "mesouraneema." Birds must fly in our atmosphere at a low enough altitude to allow the aerodynamics of bird flight to keep them in the air.

So, it makes good sense to see the word "heaven," whether New Testament or Old, mean "the sky." Even when it SEEMS like there are conditions that speak about more than just the sky, there are qualifiers that explain the conditions in light of these Hebrew or Greek words.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, it makes good sense to see the word "heaven," whether New Testament or Old, mean "the sky." Even when it SEEMS like there are conditions that speak about more than just the sky, there are qualifiers that explain the conditions in light of these Hebrew or Greek words.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

So in a way, because I disagree with what you're saying; people are in Heaven when they fly all cooped up in coach seating.

By the way, your explanation of where Jesus went - and you intimate that He kept on going - doesn't explain how Jesus literally "pops" into and out of rooms and open spaces after His Resurrection but before the Ascension from the Mount of Olives.

I prefer a dimensional shift because Jesus existed before there was a sky.  That is where He came from.  That is where He is now.  And this means Heaven is not just "sky", because that is part of creation.

[Flsnookman]

The English word "tabernacle" is derived from the Latin tabernāculum meaning "tent" or "hut", which in ancient Roman religion was a ritual structure.^[5][6][7][8] Other uses of this word include nautical usage, referring to a mast step, which by its arrangement of boards allows the mast to be raised and lowered,^{[citation needed]} and textiles industry usage, referring to a similar wooden bar scaffold used for holding a large rug while weaving.^{[citation needed]}

The word sanctuary is also used for the biblical tabernacle, as is the phrase "tent of meeting". The Hebrew word mishkan implies "dwell", "rest", or "to live in", referring to the "[In-dwelling] Presence of God", theshekhinah, based on the same Hebrew root word as mishkan), that dwelt within this divinely ordained structure.^[9][10]

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I prefer a dimensional shift because Jesus existed before there was a sky.  That is where He came from.  That is where He is now.  And this means Heaven is not just "sky", because that is part of creation.

You mean...Jesus and the Father DON'T live on the planet Kolob, somewhere out in space??? Like the Mormons say?

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[WilliamL]

On 10/1/2016 at 6:41 AM, Retrobyter said:

Second, the Greek word "proseleeluthate" is the 2nd Perfect Indicative Active form of "proserchomai" (meaning "I approach") with the 2nd Person Plural ending. Thus, it means "ye are approaching and are still approaching." It is both punctilinear AND durative; however, it is the MEANING of the base word itself that puts it into the future. It does NOT mean that "you have already arrived!"

True. The whole import of the passage is in reference to the two judgment-shofars of God: the first during the Divine appearance upon earthly Mount Sinai, the last during the Divine appearance to come upon heavenly Mount Zion -- which is what the Church-Bride has been preparing for since Christ ascended.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/2/2016 at 9:24 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Brevity is the soul of wit.

So in a way, because I disagree with what you're saying; people are in Heaven when they fly all cooped up in coach seating.

By the way, your explanation of where Jesus went - and you intimate that He kept on going - doesn't explain how Jesus literally "pops" into and out of rooms and open spaces after His Resurrection but before the Ascension from the Mount of Olives.

I prefer a dimensional shift because Jesus existed before there was a sky.  That is where He came from.  That is where He is now.  And this means Heaven is not just "sky", because that is part of creation.

Shalom, Marcus.

YES! These people who are in airplanes or jets are just as much in "heaven" as are the birds, albeit cooped up in a protected, pressurized cabin!

Regarding Yeshua` "popping into" a room, you must have missed what I said to ... Marilyn C, I think? Just how many disciples were in the room? There were many more than just twelve! As easily as He appeared to be the gardener in the garden to the women or as He appeared to be an anonymous traveler to the two on the road to Emmaus, He could have blended into the crowd as they entered the room! Then, He shifted His appearance and said words they would recognize, and - poof! - He was there in the room! With greater control over His own features, He could shift features rather than shifting dimensions!

Yes, the WORD existed before there was a sky, but He was NOT called "Jesus" (or rather, "Yeshua`") until He was so named by the messenger Gavri'el to Miryam before His birth!

Luke 1:26-33
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeshua`).
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Technically, the Creation was of the physical mass and energy that exist within our biosphere, including the electromagnetic energy (E=mc²) that we call "light" from the sun, moon, and stars. The Creation account of Genesis 1 and 2 is NOT talking about the creation of the Universe! So, we really don't know how much was already present before the Creation account!

Look, Marcus, you can believe whatever you want to imagine and believe, but in matters of the unknown and in which the Bible is silent, we BOTH just have to be prepared to have Yeshua` correct us when He returns. We just can't afford to hang too much of our theology on these weak points in which we choose to believe, and we can't teach our imagination as "Bible truth." We can say, "Well, I personally believe ...," but we should NEVER teach what we imagine and believe as DOGMA! Instead, we must QUALIFY what we say with, "It's my opinion that ... ," and it's my opinion that the word "heaven" is talking about the "sky," whether it comes from the Hebrew word "shaamayim" or the Greek word "ouranos." Both the Greek and the Hebrew had words for that which existed beyond the sky - the earth's atmosphere. "Shaameey shaamayim," translated as the "heavens of the heavens," talks about where the sun (Hebrew: shemesh) and moon (Hebrew: yaree'ach) and stars (Hebrew: kowkaaviym) exist. Similarly, Greek uses the word "epouranios," unfortunately ALSO translated as "heavenly" like "ouranios" is, to talk about where the sun (Greek: heelios) and moon (Greek: seleenee) and stars (Greek: asteres) exist.

So, if you choose to believe that "Heaven" is some place beyond the extent of this physical Universe, have at it! I think you're wrong, but SO WHAT? Who am I but just another believer? I can't change your mind, and it's not my place to try! And, my theory is no better (or worse) than yours is! When push comes to shove, we'll just have to wait for the Lord to return and set us right.

Oh, and just for clarity, I don't believe that Yeshua` "kept going" once He reached the New Jerusalem. THAT was His destination and His destiny.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

YES! These people who are in airplanes or jets are just as much in "heaven" as are the birds, albeit cooped up in a protected, pressurized cabin!

You have GOT to be kidding me...
 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Regarding Yeshua` "popping into" a room, you must have missed what I said to ... Marilyn C, I think? Just how many disciples were in the room? There were many more than just twelve! As easily as He appeared to be the gardener in the garden to the women or as He appeared to be an anonymous traveler to the two on the road to Emmaus, He could have blended into the crowd as they entered the room! Then, He shifted His appearance and said words they would recognize, and - poof! - He was there in the room! With greater control over His own features, He could shift features rather than shifting dimensions!

Oh my gosh, you're not kidding...

THIS?  This is what you now come up with to keep your definition of Heaven intact?
 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, the WORD existed before there was a sky, but He was NOT called "Jesus" (or rather, "Yeshua`") until He was so named by the messenger Gavri'el to Miryam before His birth!

Amazing.

You are so technically correct on saying names so that it gets to point you have to decipher what you write, yet one simple concept, that God existed before there was anything created, now is spun out of control as to meaning it wasn't until He was NAMED, that JESUS existed and so He existed only when the sky also did ~ so He could come "from" the sky -- so you can still maintain THAT the SKY is Heaven.

I was telling my pastor just the other day that people will not change what they believe about anything eschatological or theological.  This is just another case in point in a long list.

Good day Roy.

[Retrobyter]

28 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

You have GOT to be kidding me...
 

Oh my gosh, you're not kidding...

THIS?  This is what you now come up with to keep your definition of Heaven intact?
 

Amazing.

You are so technically correct on saying names so that it gets to point you have to decipher what you write, yet one simple concept, that God existed before there was anything created, now is spun out of control as to meaning it wasn't until He was NAMED, that JESUS existed and so He existed only when the sky also did ~ so He could come "from" the sky -- so you can still maintain THAT the SKY is Heaven.

I was telling my pastor just the other day that people will not change what they believe about anything eschatological or theological.  This is just another case in point in a long list.

Good day Roy.

Shalom, Marcus.

What is your problem? How is it that you can't see that the words "hashaamayim" and "ho ouranos" mean "the sky," when the contexts of both show that they are indeed talking about earth's atmosphere?! While the contexts of some passages are vague, making it possible to read the passages either way, there are MANY contexts that are CLEARLY talking about the earth's atmosphere, RESTRICTING the meaning of the words to "the sky!"

You are so BLINDED by your theological position that you can't see the simplicity of how the words are actually used in Scripture! Well, if that's how you CHOOSE to be, CHOKE ON IT! You can continue to be stagnant in your interpretation of "heaven," mired in the 2-dimensional garbage of the Mediaeval belief system all you want, with "Heaven" above and "Hell" below with a flat earth between, but the Scriptures do NOT use the words like that Middle Age nonsense!!

Yowm Tov, yourself!