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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yowm Tov, yourself!

Again, you are so narrowly focused on being so ever correct in your language that you have become totally unintelligible.

Heaven is more than just the "sky" because it also pertains to the place where the Temple of God, and the very Throne upon which the Father reigns.  

And that existed before there was a sky.  And THAT CONCEPT simply eludes you with all your exacting word definition.
 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

CLEARLY talking about the earth's atmosphere, RESTRICTING the meaning of the words to "the sky!"

OOPS!  You used the "clear" word.

Thus I know the following RESTRICTION is also not "clear" at all, but a limitation you put on it to mean ONLY the physical world, and thus you're no better than the LDS as WilliamL brought up.  

This limitation reminds me of a joke.  
A visitor to a mental facility asked how they graded their patients.  The administrator showed him a bathtub full of water.  "We present them with this and ask them to empty it.  We present it along with a bucket, a cup, and a spoon; and ask them how they would like to proceed."  "I see," said the visitor, "so if they don't pick the bucket, you admit them?"  "No sir, a normal person would simply open the drain; so which room should I set aside for you?"

So upon which planet does God reside?

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15 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Again, you are so narrowly focused on being so ever correct in your language that you have become totally unintelligible.

Heaven is more than just the "sky" because it also pertains to the place where the Temple of God, and the very Throne upon which the Father reigns.  

And that existed before there was a sky.  And THAT CONCEPT simply eludes you with all your exacting word definition.

Shalom, Marcus.

"Yowm tov" is a Hebrew phrase and means "Good day," for your information. It's only "unintelligible" if you have limited understanding of Hebrew.

<Sigh.> Well, the Scriptures tell us where the Temple of God and the Throne of God upon which the Father reigns are located:

Revelation 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein (within the New Jerusalem): for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

Revelation 22:1-4
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it (the New Jerusalem); and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
KJV

It IS possible that the New Jerusalem existed before the creation of the sky, but we are NOT told when it was created. On the other hand, we are TOLD that the New Jerusalem is an "epouranios" city - a city "above the sky." I, however, do not believe that it is upon any planet. The most pure crystals are those that can be grown in zero gravity, and most of the floors (foundations) of this city are said to be a solid crystal of silicon, doped with various atoms to form the various gems. Within the city, the foundations themselves have enough mass to generate a gravity strong enough upon which to build buildings and grow plants.

15 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

OOPS!  You used the "clear" word.

Thus I know the following RESTRICTION is also not "clear" at all, but a limitation you put on it to mean ONLY the physical world, and thus you're no better than the LDS as WilliamL brought up.  

This limitation reminds me of a joke.  
A visitor to a mental facility asked how they graded their patients.  The administrator showed him a bathtub full of water.  "We present them with this and ask them to empty it.  We present it along with a bucket, a cup, and a spoon; and ask them how they would like to proceed."  "I see," said the visitor, "so if they don't pick the bucket, you admit them?"  "No sir, a normal person would simply open the drain; so which room should I set aside for you?"

So upon which planet does God reside?

I used the word "clearly" because it is "clear" to me, and it is clear to me because I have looked up EVERY verse IN ITS CONTEXT that uses these words. Initially, I looked up the words "heaven," "heavenly," "heaven's" and "heavens," using Strong's Concordance back in the late 70's. Then, I used the Englishman's Concordance to look up the occurrences of the Hebrew word "shaamayim (OT:8064)," the Aramaic word "shaamayin (OT:8065)," and the Greek words "ouranos (NT:3772)," "ouranios (NT:3771)," "mesouraneema (NT:3321)," "ouranothen (NT:3770)," and "epouranios (NT:2032)" in the late 90's and early 2000's. 

I RESISTED my findings for MANY YEARS, trying every way I could think of to refute what I was finding in favor of keeping my original belief that "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode," as said on page 1238 of the old Scofield Reference Bible I was given by my parents! I printed up the verses in their contexts within a list (it was MASSIVE, about 200 pages), and I studied them over and over again! Finally, I had to give way to what God was doing in my studies, and I succumbed to believing the revelation of the Holy Spirit of God.

That you can't bring yourself to believe it is nothing surprising. But, I sure wish I could help you "cut to the chase!"

Oh, and if you're going to liken me to some cult, the JW's would be better than the LDS. Their art work is better, although NEITHER ONE of them know anything about the Great Exchange or God's justification of an individual.

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10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I succumbed to believing the revelation of the Holy Spirit of God.

Along with "clear" I am very wary of following anyone who says, "The Holy Spirit told me that...".

This long-winded, and unconvincing argument of yours Roy has no real place in the debate about Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath.  If I were the moderator, I'd kindly ask you to take your esoteric arguments to a more appropriate thread.

This will be the last from me on this: you may continue to post as you like, however, my absence should not indicate a lack of argument on my part to refute, rebut or reject yours.  I simply will cease to provide a venue for your particular side-issue.

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11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I looked up the words "heaven," "heavenly," "heaven's" and "heavens," using Strong's Concordance back in the late 70's. Then, I used the Englishman's Concordance to look up the occurrences of the Hebrew word "shaamayim (OT:8064)..."

But if you had consulted the Hebrew text, you might have noted that the Hebrew word for "heaven" in Genesis 1:8, 17, 20 translated after "firmament" has a different vowel pointing than the Hebrew word for "heaven" in Gen. 1:1. Same consonants, different vowels points: something not accounted for in Strong's and other concordances, which ignore the difference.

Edited by WilliamL
correction
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2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

But if you had consulted the Hebrew text, you might have noted that the Hebrew word for "heaven" in Genesis 1:8, 17, 20 translated after "firmament" has a different vowel pointing than the Hebrew word for "heaven" in Gen. 1:1. Same consonants, different vowels points: something not accounted for in Strong's and other concordances, which ignore the difference.

Shalom, WilliamL.

And, if you knew anything about Hebrew, you would know that vowel pointing does little to change the word. Indeed, Israeli newspapers (and most Israeli publications) have NO vowel pointing! Same consonants, same word! The vowel points are only there for foreigners to know how a word is to be pronounced, used in dictionaries, poetry, texts for children, and texts for new immigrants to Israel! The Hebrew text of B'reshiyt (Genesis) in all the ancient manuscripts have no vowel pointing as the pointing system wasn't introduced until the late first millennium A.D. during the time of the Masoretic Age (between the 7th and 10th centuries)! If you really want the "skinny" on these occurrences of "heaven" (and/or "air") in Genesis 1 and 2, they are:

1:1 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the Heaven"
1:8 - shaamaayim - spelled "shin - qamets - meim - qamets - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "Heaven"
1:9 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) -spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the heaven"
1:14 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the heaven"
1:15 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the heaven"
1:17 - hashaamaayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - qamets - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the heaven"
1:20 - hashaamaayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - qamets - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the ... heaven"
1:26 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the air"
1:28 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the air"
1:30 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the air"
2:1 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the heavens"
2:4a - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the heavens"
2:4b - vshaamaayim (the conjunction prefix added) - spelled "vav - sheva - shin - qamets - meim - qamets - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "and the heavens"
2:19 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the air"
2:20 - hashaamayim (the definite article prefix is added) - spelled "hei - patach - shin - qamets - meim - patach - yowd - chiriq - meim sofit" - "the air"

The ending words in quotes are how the KJV (AV) translates them. (A "hei" is an "H." A "patach" is an "AH" sound as in "fAther." A "shin" is the "SH" sound in "SHow." A "qamets" is the "AW" sound in "sAW." A "meim" is an "M." A "yowd" is a "Y." A "chiriq" is the "I" sound as in "oblIque." A "meim sofit" is an "ending M." A "vav" is a "V" [in most cases]. And, a "sheva" is a schwa sound that comes out as a barely pronounced "ay" or "uh," depending on the flow of the word in context.)

If the next to the last syllable (the penult) is to receive the stress, the "patach" changes to a "qamets." This is true for the noun construct state when two Hebrew nouns are put together and are translated into English with the "of" between them.

The bottom line is this: THEY ARE ALL THE SAME WORD! This "heaven" is the "air" in which the birds fly!

Furthermore, Hebrew grammar has THREE numbers: singular, DUAL, and plural. This word, "shaamaayim," is in the dual number. I believe this is because there is a "day" sky and a "night" sky.

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11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Along with "clear" I am very wary of following anyone who says, "The Holy Spirit told me that...".

This long-winded, and unconvincing argument of yours Roy has no real place in the debate about Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath.  If I were the moderator, I'd kindly ask you to take your esoteric arguments to a more appropriate thread.

This will be the last from me on this: you may continue to post as you like, however, my absence should not indicate a lack of argument on my part to refute, rebut or reject yours.  I simply will cease to provide a venue for your particular side-issue.

Shalom to you, anyway, Marcus.

First, I never claimed that "the Holy Spirit TOLD me" ANYTHING. Despite Miss Rissa Robertson's video above, it's been my experience that God doesn't work that way. What I SAID was, "Finally, I had to give way to what God was doing in my studies, and I succumbed (gave in) to believing the revelation of the Holy Spirit of God." It's beneath you to put words in my mouth.

God works in our lives to mold us, direct us, and change us into the children He wants us to be. IF you feel otherwise, then you need to repent, that is, to change your mind about this 180 degrees. He doesn't tell us what He's doing, but He DOES control the direction of our lives, especially if we are His children. You should already know this. What He does is to constrict us, closing doors left and right, bottling us up, until there's only one direction to go. Then, He opens the door in that direction and shows us the way out. He LEADS us through the "neck of the hourglass" and gives us the FREEDOM to do what He wants us to do with the LIBERTY to do what we are GOOD at doing and what we LIKE to do!

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
KJV

We plan to go in OUR ways - on OUR roads - to some destination in life. But, when we acknowledge Him, HE directs the actual steps we take, and HE already knows where we will actually arrive. It may be our imagined destination or some place completely different, but it will be where HE wants us to be. The same is true in our education and learning experiences.

The process is similar to how He directed Kefa (Peter) in Acts 10:1-48. Kefa had a "BLIND SPOT"; he had a prejudice against non-Jews! God gave him a vision THREE TIMES to move him into thinking about the meaning of that vision when He brought Cornelius to him. Kefa first had to QUESTION his own confidence in how "right" his prejudice was before he was ready to see what God was doing in Cornelius' life!

That's how God works in our lives: He makes us question our certainty or He shakes us out of our lethargy to get us out of our ruts! Then, when He has sufficiently shaken our false security, we are ready to listen to Him and seek NEW security in HIM!

Oh, and this DOES have a place in this thread! From all known prophecies of our Lord's return, He comes with the purpose of RESCUING HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL! His purpose is NOT to rescue us from wrath or to pave the way for the Antichrist's rise or any other such nonsense.

"Hosanna" does NOT mean "Praise the Lord" nor does it mean "Glory!" It is a Greek word as a transliteration for the Hebrew phrase, "Howshiya` na!" which means "Save us, now!" It's not a happy cry; it's a cry of DESPERATION! (The "ow" in "Howshiya` na" is the "ow" in "rainbow," not "cow," btw.)

Yeshua` said,

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

And, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" means "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YAH."

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Why is this in a thread about Post-Tribulation / Pre-Wrath eschatology?

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 What I SAID was, "Finally, I had to give way to what God was doing in my studies, and I succumbed (gave in) to believing the revelation of the Holy Spirit of God."

You think.

Thus you believe.

It is also logically deductible that you think your thinking is the revelation of the Holy Spirit of God, because that is what you say.

Yet others who are also believing and thinking and asking the Holy Spirit to guide them - and they have conclusions that are not so complicated as trying to figure out how gravity would even exist in your mind's belief/thinking structure which you say is a revelation from the Holy Spirit - a claim which is also part of your thinking and thus your belief structure.

Your thinking/belief also takes the dimensions which replicate the Most Holy Place in the first Tabernacle - which is a copy of what is IN Heaven - which you have placed IN creation, floating somewhere out in the ether... to revive an old concept which also isn't scientific at all, which you purport to have an interest in - and you fashion this huge, promised, God-made structure, some 1500 miles square at its base, and some 1500 miles tall, and you place it on the earth - the old earth - and because it doesn't "fit" well, you then make it into a pyramid, and when I questioned your placement on this earth, that it would not be able to function in this world's physical laws of gas compression, you then came up with, what you might think is a revelation of the Holy Spirit of God, a very complicated, literally unworkable scheme of compartmentalized air pockets in that un-Hebrew-like invention of yours, and you still maintain this idea despite any criticism to the contrary.  You maintain this thinking/belief structure so much, you drew a picture of it and use it as your avatar.

And to be right, I have to adopt your thinking?

Oh really?

I don't think so.

I also know that words in Hebrew have more than one meaning.  
I know that those earth-bound ancients would not understand anything as complicated as another dimension.

That to them, Heaven is as far away as a place they can never go - in the clouds - yet as near to them as the sky they see every day, because that is how close the Spirit, which we cannot see, can be to us, just one simple dimension-shift away.

I know that God's Abode - in Heaven - was there before there was a sky - which is how you want to force Heaven to be.  So don't tell me that the Holy Spirit dictates this; God has not put His signature on this line of thinking with any miraculous sign.  While I don't dare speak for God, so too should you not dare speak for God in saying this thinking of yours came from revelation from the Holy Spirit - because then you ARE speaking for the Holy Spirit.

So don't you tell me that the Holy Spirit is the source of your thinking to buttress it to the point that no one can challenge you.  You are treading on shaky ground when you do, and as your brother in Christ, I would be remiss if I didn't warn you.

I hope you weather the upcoming hurricane without undue loss.

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On 10/5/2016 at 2:54 PM, Retrobyter said:
On 10/5/2016 at 8:57 AM, WilliamL said:

But if you had consulted the Hebrew text, you might have noted that the Hebrew word for "heaven" in Genesis 1:8, 17, 20 translated after "firmament" has a different vowel pointing than the Hebrew word for "heaven" in Gen. 1:1. Same consonants, different vowels points: something not accounted for in Strong's and other concordances, which ignore the difference.

And, if you knew anything about Hebrew, you would know that vowel pointing does little to change the word.

Wrong. Any lexicon proves the falsity of this. For example, the three letter string aleph-beyth-lamed has four different pronunciations due to changes in vowel pointing (H56, 57, 60, 61), each word with a different meaning.

On 10/5/2016 at 2:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

The vowel points are only there for foreigners to know how a word is to be pronounced, used in dictionaries, poetry, texts for children, and texts for new immigrants to Israel! The Hebrew text of B'reshiyt (Genesis) in all the ancient manuscripts have no vowel pointing as the pointing system wasn't introduced until the late first millennium A.D. during the time of the Masoretic Age (between the 7th and 10th centuries)!

And the reason why it was introduced was to save the proper pronunciation of the Scriptural Hebrew, which was becoming a dead language. Modern Israeli Hebrew and biblical Hebrew have many differences in pronunciation, meaning of some words, and even conjugation of verbs.

The vowel points were introduced LONG before foreigners showed any interest in learning, let alone preserving, the ancient Hebrew pronunciation of the Tanakh. They were introduced to preserve the original meaning of a dying language.

On 10/5/2016 at 2:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

If the next to the last syllable (the penult) is to receive the stress, the "patach" changes to a "qamets." This is true for the noun construct state when two Hebrew nouns are put together and are translated into English with the "of" between them.

Absolutely irrelevant, because the variant vocalizations for "heavens" in verses 1:8, 17, 20 are all in the absolute, not the construct, and the absolute noun never has the vowel reduction, only the construct noun. Which once again shows that the biblical Hebrew is using a different term in these verses.

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On 10/6/2016 at 8:07 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Why is this in a thread about Post-Tribulation / Pre-Wrath eschatology?

You think.

Thus you believe.

It is also logically deductible that you think your thinking is the revelation of the Holy Spirit of God, because that is what you say.

Yet others who are also believing and thinking and asking the Holy Spirit to guide them - and they have conclusions that are not so complicated as trying to figure out how gravity would even exist in your mind's belief/thinking structure which you say is a revelation from the Holy Spirit - a claim which is also part of your thinking and thus your belief structure.

Your thinking/belief also takes the dimensions which replicate the Most Holy Place in the first Tabernacle - which is a copy of what is IN Heaven - which you have placed IN creation, floating somewhere out in the ether... to revive an old concept which also isn't scientific at all, which you purport to have an interest in - and you fashion this huge, promised, God-made structure, some 1500 miles square at its base, and some 1500 miles tall, and you place it on the earth - the old earth - and because it doesn't "fit" well, you then make it into a pyramid, and when I questioned your placement on this earth, that it would not be able to function in this world's physical laws of gas compression, you then came up with, what you might think is a revelation of the Holy Spirit of God, a very complicated, literally unworkable scheme of compartmentalized air pockets in that un-Hebrew-like invention of yours, and you still maintain this idea despite any criticism to the contrary.  You maintain this thinking/belief structure so much, you drew a picture of it and use it as your avatar.

And to be right, I have to adopt your thinking?

Oh really?

I don't think so.

I also know that words in Hebrew have more than one meaning.  
I know that those earth-bound ancients would not understand anything as complicated as another dimension.

That to them, Heaven is as far away as a place they can never go - in the clouds - yet as near to them as the sky they see every day, because that is how close the Spirit, which we cannot see, can be to us, just one simple dimension-shift away.

I know that God's Abode - in Heaven - was there before there was a sky - which is how you want to force Heaven to be.  So don't tell me that the Holy Spirit dictates this; God has not put His signature on this line of thinking with any miraculous sign.  While I don't dare speak for God, so too should you not dare speak for God in saying this thinking of yours came from revelation from the Holy Spirit - because then you ARE speaking for the Holy Spirit.

So don't you tell me that the Holy Spirit is the source of your thinking to buttress it to the point that no one can challenge you.  You are treading on shaky ground when you do, and as your brother in Christ, I would be remiss if I didn't warn you.

I hope you weather the upcoming hurricane without undue loss.

Shalom, Marcus.

Sorry, but the word is "deducible." A "deductable" is what you take off your taxes.

You can say whatever it is that comes into your little mind about me. What am I anyway (but a child of God)? However, I'd be VERY careful, if I were you, to make sure that you're not saying something blasphemous (belittling) against the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God).

That said, you really NEED to re-read Genesis 1 and 2! Here; I'll help:

Genesis 1:1-2:5
1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth. (B-ree'shiyt baaraa' Elohiym eet hashaamayim v'eet haa'aarets.)
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament (raaqiya`) in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament (haaraaqiya`), and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament "Heaven. (shaamaayim)" And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven (hashaamayim) be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land "Earth (erets)"; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth (haa'aarets) bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven (birqiya` haashaamayim) to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven (birqiya` haashaamayim) to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven (birqiya` hashaamaayim) to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven (`al pneey rqiya` hashaamaayim).
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air (uwV`owf hashaamayim), and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air (uwV`owf hashaamayim), and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air (uwlkaal `owf hashaamayim), and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished (vaykuluw hashaamayim vhaa'aarets), and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created (eeleh towldowt hashaamayim vhaa'aarets bibaar'aam), in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens (erets vshaamaayim),
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
KJV

1:7 above tells us there were three layers above the earth: the "waters-under-the-firmament," the "firmament" (or "expanse") itself, and the "waters-above-the-firmament." The first layer and the third layer were both "waters." The middle layer was an expanse of gases. And, it was this MIDDLE layer that God called "shaamayim," or "(two) skies."

The "v-" (or the "uw-") prefix means "and." The "b-" (or "V-")  prefix means "in." The "ha-" (or "haa-") is the definite article, "the." The "l-" prefix means "to" or "unto." The word "kaal" (or "kol") means "all" or "every." And,"pneey" is the noun construct form of "face of." 

Then in 1:9-10, God separated the "dry-land" from the "waters-under-the-firmament" and called the "dry-land" "earth." The "waters-under-the-firmament" were called the "Seas."

This is HOW "God created the heavens and the earth!" You can "kick against the pricks" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this is the SAME "heaven/heavens/air" throughout this chapter into the next, just as it's the SAME "earth" throughout this chapter into the next!

Now, when are you going to get it through your head that THERE IS NOTHING INHERENTLY WRONG WITH A PYRAMID?! What's the definition of a "pyramid," huh? It's simply defined as "a polyhedron of which one face is a polygon of any number of sides (the base), and the other faces are triangles with a common vertex." That's it! That's all there is to it! Now, Revelation gives us the additional information that "kai hee polis tetragoonos keitai"; that is, "and the city four-cornered lies-outstretched." Thus, the polygon base is a "four-angled" polygon. Don't go making GOD'S mathematical element some twisted symbol of the occult! It's high time you quit giving haSatan so much credit! HaSatan likes to pervert EVERYTHING that God does and has! Just look at the symbol of the rainbow and how perverted it's become, if you need proof! The triangle is STILL the strongest construction form, much stronger than a square or a rectangle! And, a city this size NEEDS all the stability it can have!

Finally, in all of Genesis 1 and 2, there is absolutely NO MENTION of a "Heaven (as God's Abode) before there was a sky!" There's only ONE "shaamayim," with or without the definite article, in all of the first two chapters of Genesis, and anyone who says otherwise is FOOLING THEMSELVES and GRASPING AT STRAWS! GET OVER IT!

Why is this brought out in this topic? It's because this is a popular viewpoint that is BASED on there being a "Heaven" to which one could be raptured! But, it could have been in ANY of the Rapture viewpoints, pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, prewrath or partial! God is NOT limited to any such "God's Abode!" He exists throughout His creation!

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On 10/7/2016 at 8:21 AM, WilliamL said:

Wrong. Any lexicon proves the falsity of this. For example, the three letter string aleph-beyth-lamed has four different pronunciations due to changes in vowel pointing (H56, 57, 60, 61), each word with a different meaning.

And the reason why it was introduced was to save the proper pronunciation of the Scriptural Hebrew, which was becoming a dead language. Modern Israeli Hebrew and biblical Hebrew have many differences in pronunciation, meaning of some words, and even conjugation of verbs.

The vowel points were introduced LONG before foreigners showed any interest in learning, let alone preserving, the ancient Hebrew pronunciation of the Tanakh. They were introduced to preserve the original meaning of a dying language.

Absolutely irrelevant, because the variant vocalizations for "heavens" in verses 1:8, 17, 20 are all in the absolute, not the construct, and the absolute noun never has the vowel reduction, only the construct noun. Which once again shows that the biblical Hebrew is using a different term in these verses.

Shalom, WilliamL.

The very first thing you need to know is that a "three letter string" is called the "root word" in a family of Hebrew words. The reason why this can have four different pronunciations with four different meanings is because the root word, typically a verb, can have MANY different parts of speech, depending on how that word is going to be used in context! Is it going to be a verb? Then it has one pronunciation and vowel pointing. Is it going to be used as a noun? Then it has a different pronunciation and vowel pointing. Will it be an adjective or an adverb? Then it will have the appropriate pronuncations and vowel pointing, accordingly. It's not the vowel pointing that determines the meaning; it's the meaning within its context that determines its vowel pointing!

Look, you can't just pick three verses out of the many and think you have a big enough sampling by which to make a judgment, especially one about the grammar of a language you know nothing about! And, Hebrew has NEVER been a "dying language." It was said to be a "dead language" like Latin when it wasn't in common usage, but there was alwaysALWAYS, ALWAYS a population that used the language down through time!

Read the rest from my answer to Marcus. I'm tired and going to bed before I say something I'll regret!

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