Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, n2thelight said:

555 seals trumps and vials

666

and

777 

happens at the same time

satan comes at 666(revealed)

Christ at 777

Sorry, but Revelation shows both TIMING and the movement of time. Study!

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

1 Nisan 1 -- first trumpet 
2) Iyyar 1 -- second trumpet 
3) Sivan 1 -- third trumpet 
4) Tammuz 1 -- fourth trumpet 
5) Ab 1 -- fifth trumpet 
6) Elul 1 -- sixth trumpet (repentence)
7) Tishri 1.-- 7th trumpet. ( Rosh Hashanah)

 

Pick any of the 7 trumpet months 

 

Lets look at 4th month known as Tammuz and the 4th trumpet of Revelation

 

Tammuz is a Babylonian pagan god believed to be the reincarnation of nimrod.

 

Nimrod led the Babylonians to pay tribute to the skies (the sun, moon, stars, and planets) with the sacrifices of their children. 

 

What do you see God doing in the 4th trumpet?

OK, this fits. Can you show us a "fit" for the other 6? 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's the same Spirit from "In the beginning" to "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." Jesus gave all the words of prophecy to all the prophets from Moses to John. This is how we know end of the age prophecies are connected and refer to each other. Jesus has lived forever and by His guidance prophecy is given to men. That you don't know this means you are weak in the spirit.

This is true, but it still does not tie Paul's "last trump" to the 7th trumpet.

Why would you write, " That you don't know this means you are weak in the spirit."

What makes you even think "you don't know this?"

Were you with Paul when He wrote about the "last trump?" Could you get into his mind and know what he was thinking? If you truly believe that Paul's last trump and the 7th trump are speaking of the same thing, well, that tells me something.

Edited July 22, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

On 7/21/2017 at 9:58 AM, iamlamad said:

The problem is, you are presupposing that Paul's "last trump" must be the last trump in Revelation!

Irrelevant considering the information all comes from the same source...God.

It is not irrelevant at all. If you believe this, it tells others more about your thinking. It is simply not truth. The fact that you believe something that is not truth....

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

Quote

 Did Paul mean the last trump ever to be sounded? VERY doubtful.

For those in Christ yes. There are two brides

Stop and think what you are saying: that for the rest of eternity those "in christ" will never hear another trumpet. I guess you know, in our resurrection body we will still be able to hear!

Please inform us WHO the second "bride" is.

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

The covenent isnt for one week, the completion of that covenant coming into effect takes one week. 

Is this really what is written? We have a lot of evidence that this covenant that is confirmed will be for one week of years. In fact, God has given us 7 confirmations that the lst half of this week will be 1260 days or 42 months.  Or are you saying these are just proof that it takes this number of days to complete perhaps the signing of that covenant? No, when the 1260 days are over, John wrote, "it is finished. At that point, the 1260 day count and the 42 month count is over and done with. That time span is finished and will never come again.  When one writes, "he shall confirm a covenant for one week" it is the COVENANT that is for one week, not the confirming of it.

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

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What comes after the feast of trumpets? The seven days of awe

Theres no such thing as 7 days of awe, its called 10 days of awe which starts on the 1st of Tishri (feast of trumpets) and ends on the 10th day of Tishri known as Yom kippur.

You are correct: I have not spent much time on Jewish feasts. 

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

But Please provide me all the themes of Yom Teruah since we on this topic.

Sorry, I guess you will have to show us this.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

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 Yes, it is complete myth. It is written in chapter 11 that the two witnesses are resurrected - but with careful study we know this actually resurrection will come after they have testified for 1260 days, so that would take them almost to the end of the week. In reality then, they will resurrect with all the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial of Rev. 16

 

Almost to the end of the week with 10 days remaining. In reality they would be resurrected at Yom Teruah 7th trumpet as the DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. (A rule you are violating along with the wedding theme.)

You can think this if you wish. We will never agree on this point. That great crowd seen around the throne in heaven happened 3 1/2 years previous to the 7th trumpet.

 

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

 

Can you show me anywhere in the 3.5 days those who live on the earth are being tormented.

Revelation 16:10

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

 

John does not tell us how long this darkness remains, but it seems it will stay dark until Jesus comes as shown in Rev. 19. They are in pain and they are in the dark. But, it seems even in the dark, and on the other side of the world, "the mail must go through:" However, John does not really tell us the gifts were actually received. We can only guess they were both sent and received.

 

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

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 It would be far more likely Paul's meaning is people living in peace, just as we are today

Hardly since peace and safety has already been removed by the red horse.

You still don't get it.

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword [the Red horse and rider] , and with hunger [the Black horse and rider], and with death [the Pale horse and rider], and with the beasts of the earth.

These are LIMITED in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. These three horsemen do not cover the entire world. And even while the 2nd world war was HOT in Africa, Germany, Italy, and the Pacific, people say in New Zealand were living in peace.

When Paul wrote "peace and safety" I think he was talking in general around the world. Could we say that those in Israel are living in peace and safety today? I would say, yes. Most of those in Israel are living their life: eating, drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage.  It is the same in the US today and in most of the world.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

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 just before the battle of Armageddon? I don't think so.

13.5 days before armageddon i think so. You also might want to question how I got to that since we are in jewish thought.

OK, please show us how you get to that figure. It should be interesting.  I cannot imagine how.

 

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

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 John apparently did not see the rapture, so did not write of it. Why then would we expect him to write of "peace and safety?" 

 

Of cause he did.

 

John was given the vision of the 2 witnesses LITERALLY resurrected, he was also given the vision of Christ coming to JUDGE the dead all at the 7th trumpet.

 

Please stop painting John, who was a JEW (Please let that sink in for you.....a Jew) ignorant of Gods appointed feasts as HIS appointed times and Gods employment of trumpet months, edioms and themes associated to HEBREW CULTURE carfted BY GOD.

Your imagination is running wild! If John had seen the rapture take place in his vision, he would have wrote of it,, or would have written that God told him NOT to write of it.  In truth, John does not tell us if he SAW the two witnesses: it seems more likely he was given these words to write. But then, anyone that imagines the resurrection of the two witnesses equals the resurrection of the dead in Christ has a very wild imagination. Is God not allowed to have any resurrection but what people will jump on it and claim it must be the rapture event? This is worse even than pretribbers claiming that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture.

The dead in Christ will rise just a moment before the start of the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath. Anyone who studies Revelation will know that God's wrath begins with the trumpet judgments. They are very much a part of His wrath. The two witnesses will rise up at the 7th vial  - when ALL (save those many that rose when He rose) the Old Testament saints rise.  After all, these two witnesses WILL BE Old Testament saints.

John probably suspected, as many do today, that the rapture event will come at the feast of Trumpets.

Finally, it is only your imagination that the two witnesses rise at the 7th trumpet.

Do you imagine that the 42 months of trampling begin and end in ONE VERSE or even in one chapter?

Do you imagine that the 1260 days of fleeing begin and end in ONE VERSE or even in one chapter??

Do you imagine that the 3 1/2 years of protection  begin and end in ONE VERSE or even in one chapter??

Do you imagine that the 42 months of authority begin and end in ONE VERSE or even in one chapter??

Yet you imagine that the entire 1260 days of testifying take place in this one chapter. No, all of these counts of time will end at or near the 7th vial that ends the week.

The truth is, in TWO of these 5 counts of time, God chose to take us down the last half of the week in a parenthesis, showing us only what the two witnesses will encounter, in the first case, and what the Beast and false prophet will do in the second case. BOTH are written as a parenthesis.  I am amazed you don't see this.

We KNOW that Rev. 12:6 will be just a second or two after the abomination that divides the week.  So the ONLY POSSIBLE other conclusion anyone can come to is that the two witnesses were testifying during the first half of the week, along with the 144,000. And for some crazy reason, two people suddenly showing up from the Old Covenant did not warrant God showing John that in the vision.  I know for a fact that all five of these instances of the 3 1/2 years are in the last half of the week, because I heard the voice of the Lord saying exactly that: "every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time."

So if you wish to imagine they testify in the first half of the week, that is your prerogative, but you will be wrong.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

And that mystery that is accomplished

 

1Cor 15:51-53 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet

This is absolute truth. But to imagine this "last trumpet" is John's 7th trumpet is only imagination. 

 

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

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 I suspect you are the only believer ever in 2000 years to imagine "peace and safety" fits with sending gifts shown in Revelation

 

I suspect you must be the only person in the world who thinks that the inhabitants celebrating for 3.5 days untormented is not a world that seems at peace and safety.

Is it possible that people can send gifts in total darkness and while in pain with painful sores? I think so. But then, it is VERY possible that some of the vials are localized to the kingdom of the Beast, and people say in the USA are not so tormented. What do you think?

There is no doubt many things we will not agree on until we know as we are now known. But, we are brothers in Christ. Perhaps one day we will discuss how little we really knew as we stroll along the River of Life.

[Last Daze]

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

That is a theory: the only problem is, it does not fit scripture. John shows us that He does not come at the 7th trumpet, nor the first vial, nor the 2nd vial, nor the 3rd vial, etc, not until all 7 vials are poured out and the week is finished (the 7th vial) and STILL He has not come. No, not until the events of chapters 17 and 18 happen, and then not until the marriage and supper take place in heaven: THEN and ONLY then do we see His coming.

A theory must fit all end times scriptures. The theory that the 7th trump is Paul's "last trump" is only a theory of human reasoning and it does not fit. 

No, it is not the Mystery Jesus spoke of perhaps in 31 or 32 AD. It was STILL A MYSTERY in 95 AD when John saw the vision. It is still a mystery today for many do not know. We can only guess, because it is not written. But John DID give us a hint: this mystery must have everything to do with the Kingdom's of this world being taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. And it must have something to do with Satan being cast down from the heavenly realms.

Sorry, your timing does not fit. Yes, the ownership or rulership of the kingdoms change, but Jesus does not descend at the 7th trumpet.

By the way, WHO sounds the "last trump," who sounds Zechariah 9:14 trumpet, and WHO sounds the 7th trumpet in Revelation?

If an angel sounds, it cannot be the same trumpet our Lord sounds.

I'm pretty sure I know what "finished" means.  I'll stick with what the scriptures say.  Seventh trumpet = finished.  Simple.

[Last Daze]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is absolute truth. But to imagine this "last trumpet" is John's 7th trumpet is only imagination. 

Have you ever considered the possibility that the trump of God, the last trumpet, happens just after the seventh angel sounds?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

I have every right to rearrange your chronology, you do not have the trademark or monopoly on what you state is Revelation's chronological order, just like you do not have the monopoly on hearing Christ. Nor do you have a monopoly on what is the totality of how great the number is for the multitide is in heaven Rev 7 (in otherwords you do not dictate to us how long a piece of string is)

All you have done is state "its midpoint", "its midpoint" without actually providing a single shred of solid evidence.

I have presented it time and again, and each time it goes right over your head, due to preconceptions.

You are not rearranging "my" chronology - you are rearranging HIS chronology. My chronology IS HIS Chronology. I leave it exactly as written. You will never find me writing such silliness as "this trumpet actually happens at the _____ seal." I know that all seals must be opened before the scroll can be opened to reveal the trumpets.

Now then, put on your thinking cap.

Dan. 9: ...he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Since you don't believe4 this, humor me and at least try to imagine this is the man of sin who will turn into the Beast of Revelation  and in the midst of the week will do something to cause the daily sacrifices to cease. Remember, when I was reading this, just minding my own business, when my mind got to the word "midst" (two divide in half) GOD SPOKE and told me I could find this exact midpoint "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation.

So, what would cause the daily sacrifices to cease?

Dan 8:¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 11: ³¹ And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

These verses are about Antiochus Epiphanes. We know now what he did: sacrifices a pig on the altar and place an image of Zeus in the most holy place in the temple. The daily sacrifices ceased until Antiochus was defeated (by the HAMMER) and run off. then finally the temple was cleansed and the daily sacrifices continued.

So WHAT will cause the daily sacrifice in our future to cease? Paul told us.

2 Thes. 2:4  ... so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The moment he enters the most holy place in the temple - the place reserved only for God and the High priest once a year - the temple will be defiled, and the daily sacrifices must cease.  It will be an abomination. It will be THE abomination Jesus spoke of:

Matthew 24:¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Make no mistake, the abomination will divide the week, and those in Judea will flee the moment they see this man enter the most holy place and declare he is God.  And WHERE do we find this in Revelation?  

Rev 12:⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here is the fleeing Jesus talked about. We know that they will flee the moment they see the abomination. And we know it will be this abomination that will divide the week.

I understand, with preconceived glasses, you won't get this. But it is here for the readers.

If we back up from 12:6 looking for any kind of "marker" we arrive at the 7th trumpet. It not only marks the midpoint of the week, it also marks the end of one millennium and the beginning of another.

Write this down: the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week. You can take that to the bank.