thereselittleflower Posted July 11, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) What about the idea of the thousand years of reign on earth, supposedly a time of peace on earth with Christ? So after destroying the world in a most horrendous way, there is a millennium of peace on earth? People take the text in Revelation 20:6, they "shall reign with Him (Christ) a thousand years." You have to be able to establish where Christ is to be able to reign with Him. They presume that Christ has come to set up an earthly kingdom - much like the Jews who are still waiting for the messiah to set his kingdom up on earth. I Thessalonians 4:17. We will meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds when He returns, to destroy the earth. Jesus mentioned mansions in heaven, so that we may be with Him. There is no doubt where the resurrected saints are going, they're going to heaven to live with Christ. Eventually the earth will be the final resting place of heaven, but not until the thousand years are over, there is a judgment and a termination of the wicked, and then the earth is renewed. The earth will not be a fit place for us to live until it is renewed. The Bible even describes the time when the oceans are boiled up. What kind of world does leave leave us? The only person on earth during the thousand years is the devil and his angels. If you are planning to stay here, that's all you'll have, a broken and dark world, quivering with recent earthquakes and waiting for the judgement day. There is only one place that speaks of this and that is in the most highly symbolic book of the bible, and is a most highly symbolic number. It is never used literally anwhere in the bible. It's symbolic nature is illustrated by Peter when he says 2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. There is no actual support in scripture for millenialism. One has to wrest the scriptures to make them appear to say otherwise. but when one examines them closely, it all folds like a house of cards. I used to believe in the millenial reign of Christ. I examined its underpinnings and found nothing of substance to my shock and surprise. After the resurrection comes the Great White Throne Judgement. There is nothing else in-between. Whatever time we want to appoint to the thousand years may differ - but I wanted to make the point about the sequence of events according to what is written. What I read is, that after the thousand years are over, there is a resurrection of the dead wicked, who are shown their role and choices in the great battle between good and evil, and their rejection of light, then there is a destruction of them, then the earth is renewed. Having said that, I don't mean that the entire book of Revelation should be read as a sequence of the written events, whether in symbol or not, but it in similar style to Genesis 1, 2 and 3. and Daniel for instance, where the events are described from different perspectives, with different aspects in focus, in the same way that a person tells of an experience, giving an overall picture first and filling in the details later. So sometimes it seems like separate stories, but is just talking about the same thing. Revelation 20 talks about Satan being let loose and deceiving the nations, and yet after it talks about the resurrection of the dead, and the great white throne. One talking about the fate of Satan the other about the judgement event and the resurrection not necessarily in order. But it is interesting what you have said about no time between death and the resurrection and judgement. Paul said that after death is the judgement. As far as the dead are concerned they don't know how long they have been dead, because according to the Bible "the dead know not anything" they wake up with the resurrection, and the time period between falling unconscious in death and waking up is zero. You know you bring up a really important point - the sequence of events. When I said that the phrase 1000 years isn't literal, I was only thinking of that aspect of the use of that phrase. But you're right, even if it's not a literal 1000 years, it is referring to a period of time for something, and I didn't address that aspect of it at all. In regards to what time frame "a thousand years" refers to, it simply refers to a very, very long time. It could be much longer than a thousand years. It could be thousands of years. The question then becomes a matter of when. And this gets to the very heart of the issue of how the book of Revelation should be interpreted and understood. The very fundamental questions that must be answered are these: Should the book of Revelation be interpreted literally as a prophecy of a very distant sequence of events from the time when it was written at the end of the first century? Or should the book of Revelation be read as a highly symbolic book written to the christians of the time, and in a manner in which those it was written to would understand but we would find very difficult being divorced from the time, culture, language and events they lived in, instead of being written as a distant future play-by-play sequence of events at all? I believe the answer lies in understanding what the book of Revelation is and isn't. The original title of the book is "The Apocalypse of John" which, though it is something we tend to gloss over, is actually quite important. It was called The Apocalypse of John because it was written specifically as an "Apocalypse." An "apocalypse" was a form of writing in the genre of apocalyptic literary that was so very popular at the time. The apocalyptic genre was in use for a couple hundred years before Christ and through the time of the first century or so of the early church. Because this form of writing was so very popular during that time period, the christians of that period would have easily understood what it was, and was not, saying. The goal of writings in the apocalyptic genre is not to give a prophetic roadmap of future events, but to convey TEACHING that speaks of the ultimate triumph of good over evil in very symbolic terms that the readers of the time to which the work was targeted would understand, to encourage them. Christians used this form of writing as well. In christian apocalyptic literature, the teaching is that of the ultimate triumph of God and His Church over satan and evil, to encourage them in their faith to hold strong through tribulation. Now here is where I see some of the confusion today arising from. Some people will say "Wait a minute, John clearly states it is a book of prophecy!" and that's correct, he did. The question then must be asked, what did he mean by that claim? Did he mean the same thing some people mean today? Due to the way we approach the word "prophecy" today, it would seem to refer to future sequence of events and a foretelling of those future events. But that would necessitate a very narrow understanding of the word "prophecy" as it is used in scripture. In scripture, the word prophecy CAN mean a foretelling of future events, but it is used also used to refer to teaching and discourse. We can see this in this warning from scripture: 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The word prophecy here is "προφητεία" prophēteia and means: prophecy a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ Notice that the very first definition is not one of foretelling a sequence of future events, but a discourse emanating from divine inspiration. A discourse is communication. To reprove To admonish the wicked To comfort the afflicted To reveal things hidden - which includes the foretelling of future events but is not limited to the fortelling of future events. Peter is using this of all inspired scripture, not just the foretelling of future events, for the word prophecy itself means a discourse emanating from divine inspiration which Paul speaks of here: 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; which lines up perfectly with the primary definition and use of the word prophecy in scripture. Even in its use in regards the old testament prophets, its meaning is not restricted to the foretelling of future events, but encompasses all utterances in "the spirit of prophecy" "the diivine mind" including consolations and admonitions, and also refers to the endowment of speech of the christian TEACHERS called prophets. This should cause us to question attempts to force an interpretation on the word "prophecy," as used by John, to make it mean he was revealing a detailed sequence of future events. We must keep in mind the intense suffering caused by the persecutions the first century christians endured. At the time of John's writing, these persecutions were still ongoing, John himself being persecuted, imprisoned on an island, where he wrote this work. If we stop trying to force the book of Revelation to be a roadmap of end time events (which is novel approach engaged in by Darby in the 1800's,) and look at it the way the christians to whom it was written understood it, then an entirely different picture emerges. Instead of the "thousand years" being a future time period, the early christians understood it to be their present time. Even John addresses, at the very beginning of the the Apocalypse of John, in the first few verses, one of the key elements of dispensationalism's teaching regarding the thousand years - the reign of Christ. According to dispensationalism, that reign is future and will occur in a future, literal 1000 year period. In dispensationalist theology, Jesus is not reigning over the world yet. But that is not what John says. John says Jesus is reigning over the world right now. Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- Looking at the underlying Greek makes it even more plain: The word "ruler" is "ἄρχων" archōn and means: a ruler, commander, chief, leader This claim by John that Jesus is ruler, commander, chief, leader of the kings of the earth follows in a sequence of claims about Jesus that we all to be true as of the time John penned those words, none of which were waiting to be become true: Jesus is, right now and at the time of the Apostle John, : the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead and also, right now and at the time of the Apostle John, the ruler of the kings of the earth This is borne out by again looking at the underlying Greek. This last statement about Jesus is joined to the previous two by the word "kai" The word "and" in Rev 1:5 is "καί" "kai" is a conjunction, the use of which specifically indicates that this list is a progression of the same thought, as opposed to "de" which would indicate a change in direction. John did not use "de". He used "kai." "kai" connects a train of thought that is continuous leading along the same path, not changing directions, with all the parts having in mind the same end in sight. And this is what we see John doing here. What came before provides the context for what comes next, a continuation of a train of thought that leads along the same path. That be so, his reign over the earth is not something yet to happen in the future, but happening now. This brings us back to the question of when is this period of time the "thousand years" refers to? This can be answered simply by looking at the relationship between the reign of Christ and the thousand years and what John says about both: Since John says Christ's reign over the earth happens during this "thousand years" and since John plainly tells us Christ is reigning now, we are then left with this simple, unavoidable conclusion The "thousand years" is happening now as well, and has been happening since before John penned those words. Edited July 11, 2015 by thereselittleflower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Satan is bound during the 1,000 years. He is no longer active on the earth if he is bound, but Satan is active on the earth even now, and there is no sense in which Satan is bound. If the 1,000 year millennium is now, if THIS is the millennial reign of Christ, it is a dismal failure. It is the biggest failure in human history. Jesus is reigning, but it is not the 1,000 year reign mentioned by John. More accurately, Jesus is right now, operating in the office of High Priest and making intercession and pleading for us as our advocate before the Father, if you read the Bible closely. Jesus will not reign on David's Throne until after he returns and sets up the millennial kingdom and binds Satan as described in John. When you study the book of Revelation there is an interesting little Greek phrase kai eidon keeps recurring throughout the book of Revelation and indicates a chronological progression all through the book of Revelation. If THIS is the millennial reign of Christ, the world should be getting better, but Satan, far from being bound is hard at work deceiving the nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Posted July 11, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,379 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2015 "Trust me". You made a fatal error there (with me). I trust someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted July 11, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Hi Kan, What about the idea of the thousand years of reign on earth, supposedly a time of peace on earth with Christ? Correct, God is fulfilling His promise to the Israelites during the millennium, they are to learn the doctrine of Christ. So after destroying the world in a most horrendous way, there is a millennium of peace on earth? You can not have peace until the wicked are forcefully removed from power (though it is really a judgment of vengeance) .. Concerning destruction, the focus of the destruction is aimed at man's civilization, cities / factories etc, total infrastructural devastation, every city a ruinous heap etc .. the earth itself however will recover quickly, God will see to that. People take the text in Revelation 20:6, they "shall reign with Him (Christ) a thousand years." You have to be able to establish where Christ is to be able to reign with Him. Scripture tells us, He will reign in Jerusalem in the restored kingdom & from Jerusalem the Lord will reign over the earth with His resurrected saints watching over & guiding the human Israelites in the same capacity the angels work in the world today .. it does not mean the resurrected saints cannot traverse between heaven & earth, but they will have their duties to perform here on earth where they will spend most of their time. They presume that Christ has come to set up an earthly kingdom - much like the Jews who are still waiting for the messiah to set his kingdom up on earth. There is no presumption .. scriptures speak of it in multiple places & in literal terms in a straight forward & down to earth (pardon the pun) approach. I Thessalonians 4:17. We will meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds when He returns, to destroy the earth. Jesus mentioned mansions in heaven, so that we may be with Him. Meeting Christ in the air & mansions in heaven are two non related subjects. There is no doubt where the resurrected saints are going, they're going to heaven to live with Christ. I believe that is speculation, Christ says different : Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. One reigns from ones base of operations, in this case, the earth .. a tiny tiny example : Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness. Jeremiah 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart. The throne of David is not in heaven but is on earth, the restored kingdom likewise will be on earth, it will have a duality to it though .. a physical kingdom with a spiritual dimension .. the kingdom itself is localized in Israel .. the rest of the world is outside the kingdom boundaries, these will be taught by the Jews who in turn will be taught & guided by the resurrected saints .. only within the kingdom boundaries will it be like paradise .. outside will be like it is today minus mans God-independent empire. Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. The saints are required on earth for the Israelites they will be ruling over & guiding & teaching .. notice the language .. "judging" .. it is an ongoing process of guidance the saints are providing along with our Lord, again, they are needed here on earth. Anyway, it is in this earthly kingdom where Christ's throne of glory will be set up & based : Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And when is this throne of glory set up? Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: At the 2nd coming. Eventually the earth will be the final resting place of heaven, but not until the thousand years are over, there is a judgment and a termination of the wicked, and then the earth is renewed. Yes .. but it is what is happening during the 1000 years that is important, it is here where the Lord's work continues to unfold. The earth will not be a fit place for us to live until it is renewed. Actually, it will not be fit for the Father to live on until it is destroyed and re-created because the whole earth is polluted (men have worshipped trees & mountains etc etc), the rest of us however can & will dwell here until then with Christ. The Bible even describes the time when the oceans are boiled up. What kind of world does leave leave us? There will be no seas in the new heaven & new earth, this does not effect the millennial kingdom which is before that event. The only person on earth during the thousand years is the devil and his angels. If you are planning to stay here, that's all you'll have, a broken and dark world, quivering with recent earthquakes and waiting for the judgement day. I'm not sure where you get that from? Zechariah would disagree : Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Kan, I've kept this as brief as possible, if you want more scriptures with more detail & context just ask & I will bring them forth. Blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted July 11, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted July 11, 2015 There is no actual support in scripture for millenialism. Since "a thousand years" (Gk chilia ete) is repeated six times in the space of seven verses (Rev 20:1-7), and a thousand years = one millennium, then those who claim that there is no support for the Millennium are engaged in one of the following mental gymnastics: (a) ignoring Scripture when it does not suit their preconceptions, (b) avoiding the plain statements of Scripture for the same reason, © allegorizing or spiritualizing or dismissing this passage because it is in serious conflict with their false theologies and/or (d) misapplying Scripture as Augustine did when he claimed he was already in the Millennium. The Millennium corresponds to numerous OT prophecies which reveal that the Lord Jesus Christ will personally establish universal peace, prosperity, and righteousness, on this earth as has never ever been experienced. No man or human goverments can ever accomplish this. It is not only amazing, but disappointing and disheartening to see Christians strongly resisting the pre-tribulation Rapture and the glorious Millennium which follows all the severe judgments in Revelation. It would appear that the wonderful works of God in the future are a threat to believers rather than an encouragement. One could take each and every one of the statements which have been made to oppose these events and show their errors, but ultimately people will choose to believe whatever they wish to believe, therefore there is no profit in disputing these misunderstandings. Ezra, we agree about the millennial kingdom .. that is good .. glad you see it too .. the pre-trib rapture though .. well .. you already know my view on that subject :-) Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted July 11, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Satan is bound during the 1,000 years. He is no longer active on the earth if he is bound, but Satan is active on the earth even now, and there is no sense in which Satan is bound. If the 1,000 year millennium is now, if THIS is the millennial reign of Christ, it is a dismal failure. It is the biggest failure in human history. Jesus is reigning, but it is not the 1,000 year reign mentioned by John. More accurately, Jesus is right now, operating in the office of High Priest and making intercession and pleading for us as our advocate before the Father, if you read the Bible closely. Jesus will not reign on David's Throne until after he returns and sets up the millennial kingdom and binds Satan as described in John. When you study the book of Revelation there is an interesting little Greek phrase kai eidon keeps recurring throughout the book of Revelation and indicates a chronological progression all through the book of Revelation. If THIS is the millennial reign of Christ, the world should be getting better, but Satan, far from being bound is hard at work deceiving the nations. Well said brother .. side note : though Satan is bound, his angels will still be around .. they will inhabit all the ruins as Rev 18:2 mentions .. just thought I'd mention it though you probably already knew it. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole W. Posted July 11, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 13 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2015 Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. The saints are required on earth for the Israelites they will be ruling over & guiding & teaching .. notice the language .. "judging" .. it is an ongoing process of guidance the saints are providing along with our Lord, again, they are needed here on earth. Anyway, it is in this earthly kingdom where Christ's throne of glory will be set up & based : Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And when is this throne of glory set up? Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: At the 2nd coming. Quote People take the text in Revelation 20:6, they "shall reign with Him (Christ) a thousand years." You have to be able to establish where Christ is to be able to reign with Him. Scripture tells us, He will reign in Jerusalem in the restored kingdom & from Jerusalem the Lord will reign over the earth with His resurrected saints watching over & guiding the human Israelites in the same capacity the angels work in the world today .. it does not mean the resurrected saints cannot traverse between heaven & earth, but they will have their duties to perform here on earth where they will spend most of their time. I receive the same understanding as you in these scritures of Christ's rule and reign with the Saints chosen and which qualify for the first and most blessed Resurrection, as they will be bringing healing and teaching to God's people that did not Resurrect. Also, in response to the mention of the Saints traversing between heaven and earth, I have received and believe that they will do just that in the same manner of Christ when He came to earth and appeared to the disciples. He on earth was in His resurrected body, but when He would assend to heaven, He would dissapear into His spirit body in the Heavenly realm. I believe the Saints will be able to do the same, as in the Resurrection, we will be as the Angels of God. Luke 20:34-36 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted July 12, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Scripture does not contradict scripture. Since Jesus is reigning now over the kings of the earth, as scripture plainly states, and since the time in which he reigns over the kings of the earth is during this "thousand years," and since this necessitates that the "thousand years" is now, then satan being bound for a thousand years must also be now. 2+2=4. Yet we see the result of his influence all around us. So how can this be? Evidently he is alive and well on planet earth - well maybe. To untangle what seems to be hopelessly tangled, we must again go back to the very first principal, which is understanding what exactly the book of Revelation is - and is not. Revelation is The Apocalypse of John, an apocalyptic writing in the apocalyptic genre which uses HIGHLY symbolic language to describe the final triumph of God and the Church over satan and evil. What it is not is a roadmap of a sequence of literal events. One makes a grave error when they take what is meant to be highly symbolic and force a very literal interpretation onto it. Yet that is exactly what we see happening here in regards to the binding of satan, and the dispensationalist claim this means he is literally bound in a literal pit for a literal thousand years. To take what is symbolic and force it to be literal is to grossly distort the truth. None of this was ever intended to be understood literally by John and was never understood to be literal by the christians he wrote it to. This ultra literal translation being forced on the words of John, is new and arrived on the scene with Darby in the 1800's. The Holy Spirit, who is the source of these inspired scriptures, is the same today as He was yesterday, and the same understanding He gave to the Apostle John and the christians John wrote to is as unchanging as He is. Jesus promised that ALL Truth would be given to the disciples by the Holy Spirit. That means the Apostles were in possession of all the truth Jesus wanted to impart to the Church for all time before John left this earth. That means there is no new truth to be discovered, no new truth to be revealed. It was all given to the 1st century Church through the Apostles by the Holy Spirit. If someone to come to us, 1800 years later, claiming from his own personal, private interpretation that he has new truth, new revelation, an addition to the truth given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit, why should we pay any heed? As I shared above, Peter himself warns us: 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Again, Peter warns us: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. If this is true about Paul's words where there are things difficult to understand, which the unlearned and unstable wrest to their own destruction, how much more true is this of the most difficult book in the bible to understand, a book full of symbolic language? So what about satan being bound? This is symbolic language just as the thousand years is symbolic language, found in the most symbolic book of the bible. Let's look at the words of Jesus - he cast out demons, and was accused of casting them out by the power of satan: Matthew 12:28-29: "If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." The kingdom of God has come This necessitated the binding of the strong man, satan. In the phrase "the kingdom of God has come upon you" in the Greek the verb is in the Indicative Mood which means it is a simple statement of fact, and in the Active Voice which means the speaker is the doer of the action. Jesus is the one who brought the kingdom of God upon them. Then Jesus speaks about binding and spoiling or plundering the strong man's goods. . . saving souls. The sequence is this: First he (satan) must be bound Then, his goods can be plundered This sequence is born out in the underlying Greek. for where "Bind" is in the aorist tense (which a view of the action as having begun from a certain point or having ended at a certain point, or merely existing at a certain point ) and "spoil" is in the future tense, thus indicating the necessity of one preceding the other. Jesus is casting out demons, and taking the spoils of the strong man, the souls of those possessed. He can do so because Satan is bound. Again, Jesus' words: Jhn 12:27 ¶ Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Jhn 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. Jhn 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jhn 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Jhn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Again, we go to the Greek: "Is" above is in the PRESENT tense. - this is not some future event. "Now" is "νῦν" nyn which means: at this time, the present, now "cast out" is "ἐκβάλλω" ekballō which means to cast out, drive out, to send out with notion of violence to drive out (cast out) to cast out of the world, i.e. be deprived of the power and influence he exercises in the world "cast out" deprives satan of the power and influence he exercises in the world - so does binding. In Hebrews 2:14-15 it says: 14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. The word "Destroy" is καταργέω katargeō which means: to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency to deprive of force, influence, power What happens when you bind someone? You render them idle, unemployed, inactivate them, make them inoperative, cause them to have no further efficiency, deprive them of force, influence, power. This passage is saying the same thing as Jesus' words above about binding the strong man, and John's words in Revelation about the binding of satan. To free us, Jesus had to destroy satan - as we see in previous scripture, before the strong man can be robbed, he must first be bound. When and how did Jesus destroy/bind satan? By His Death on the cross. But still we have the problem of evil in the world, if satan is truly bound how is it we see evidence of his work? Making this such a black and white, all or nothing, issue is what is the problem. If one is going to approach this in such a black and white manner, then we should be able to also approach other teachings in the same black and white manner without any theological problems. But when we do, we cause a great deal of problems theologically in other areas. For if this is all or nothing, then issues regarding sin should be all or nothing as well. Are they? The scriptures say Romans 6:2 - We died to sin Romans 6:6-7 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Galatians 6:24:Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Do you still sin? We all do. If we say we do not we are liars. How can this be if we are dead to sin? If we say Satan cannot be bound because we see so much evil and evidence of his activity, then we need to also just as strongly argue that we are not dead to sin. that we are still slaves to sin, and our old self was not crucified with Christ. But instead of denying these truths because the evidence in our daily life appears contrary to these truths, we affirm these truths. If we don't deny the truth of these words of scripture concerning ourselves and sin despite seeming every day evidence to the contrary, how is it we would deny the truth of satan being bound now, just because the evidence in our daily experience appears contrary to the truth that satan is now bound and has been since Jesus overcame him through Jesus' death on the cross? The symbolism of Revelation where satan is pictured being bound in chains and thrown into the pit is symbolic. That means it is not saying satan is being "physically" bound (if physical is even the right way to describe the being of a fallen angel) with actual chains, etc., but that this is a symbolic picture for something else. . . The binding of satan's POWER. This binding of satan, his power, happened on the cross and continues through the Church for however long it will be before Christ's Second Coming. : Have you been freed from sin? Are you saved? If Jesus says before he could save you, the strong man, the devil, had to be bound, and yet you say that the devil is not yet bound, how is it that you are saved? To make the words of John in Revelation mean that the devil is not bound now, and that his binding is in the future during a thousand year millenium, is to make the words of Christ and scripture here of no effect. Tthis is why Peter warns us that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation, and why Peter warns us against taking difficult to understand scripture and wresting it to our own destruction If the devil is not bound now, then no one is saved. Edited July 12, 2015 by thereselittleflower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted July 12, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Hi thereselittleflower, Yes I agree that the Lord is reigning now. He is king & always has been, king of glory, king of heaven, king of the ages, king of the realm of truth etc. And we know that He came to destroy the works of the devil, (1 John 3: 8). We also know that the Lord is using Satan for His purposes enabling the Body of Christ to learn to be overcomers, (Eph. 6: 10 - 20). Then in His timing He will put down all authority, step by step - the global unrighteous government, rebellious people, those against Israel, those not coming under His rod of iron, then Satan & His demons & finally death. Quite a process. Thus the 1,000 years does not equate with the beginning of Christ`s putting down of authority, but part of it. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 12, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2015 Kan and thereselittleflower There are only 25 verses here. I pray you take the take to read it. Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. Isaiah 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; Isaiah 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; Isaiah 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Isaiah 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, Isaiah 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. Isaiah 65:10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me. Isaiah 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number. Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. Isaiah 65:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: Isaiah 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name: Isaiah 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Isaiah 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isaiah 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.Isaiah 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.Isaiah 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. God purposely slipped a single scripture in there which prophesies even further ahead of what he is describing. Can you pick it? This is how God hides his jewels. If we don't know his whole plan from beginning to end then we will miss it and get all confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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