The Lord Jesus Christ

[firestormx]

Shalom, Joseph (Firestormx) 

Retrobyter ,

Isaiah 9:6 

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

ok, we will have to agree to disagree I guess. In everything I have ever read on this verse and with all my study it seems clear to me it is calling the son born unto us the mighty God, the everlasting father. Every translation I have ever read backs up my understanding of this verse. For you to say " I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." " Is to say every translation there is translates this verse wrong. I see no other possibility. For the son to be called the everlasting Father and the mighty God, either it's true or this verse is blaspheme .  I appreciate your response, but I must vehemently disagree with you on this subject and your understanding of this verse.  To deny Christ being God is to nullify the Crucifixion. I am at a complete loss of what else to say other than I will pray for you. If Jesus was/is not God then he wasn't/isn't worthy to die for our sin, the Crucifixion was in vain and we are all still in our sin. All of Christianity revolves around the deity of Christ . I will pray for you. I wish I knew what else to say. I feel so sorry for you. I will pray that your eyes are opened to the truth on this.

God bless you

Firestormx

Joseph

And, “in everything [you] have ever read,” when have you ever read anything from a Jewish point of view? Look, I can understand why Christians would read Christian books, but if you want to understand the HEBREW behind a verse, particularly the grammar, you MUST read it from a point of view that understands Hebrew, namely, to know which words are which parts of speech in the language. We DON’T just have a string of nouns all put together! IF they were just a group of names or proper nouns put together, then they would ALL be in the construct state and you would have to put an “of” between them ALL! IF they were all INTENDED to be a group of names or proper nouns listed for the Messiah, they would have had the Hebrew letter vav in front of them, most often translated as “and."

Yes I've looked at this from the Jewish point of view and I disagree with your translation of this verse. I honestly believe you are doing what I have seen you accuse others of doing, translating this verse through the lens of your beliefs instead of letting the bible translate itself. If Jesus is not God then he was just another man, like me or you, unfit to be a spotless sacrifice and it would be impossible for him to be sinless. Only God is without sin, Only God can forgive sin. If Jesus is not God then what is he,  what exactly is Jesus if he is not God? I don't see what is so complicated about this. You are a body, a spirit, and a soul. You are all 3 but 1. All 3 can separated one from the other but all 3 are still 100% you.  We were made after the image of God. Just as we are 3 but 1 so is God. God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit. All 3 separate and distinct but yet all 3 are 1 and all 3 still the same person, God . If we are 3 but 1 why is it so hard to grasp that God is as well?

 

P.S. Do me a favor, go look at how every other translation renders this verse. None of them say what you do, None!

Edited September 3, 2015 by firestormx

[Guest shiloh357]

Retrobyter ,

Isaiah 9:6 

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

I've been following this thread for a while and was curious if you would answer a question for me. If Jesus is not God then how do you explain the verse above? Thank you

Firestormx

From the Hebrew the terms refer to Jesus in His deity.   He is the mighty God.  It could not be clearer.   Everlasting Father in Hebrew reads, "avi ad"  or "Father of eternity."   It is not using the term "father"  in a paternal sense.    It is using the term in a way that points to the origin of something else.   We say that Alexander Graham Bell is the "father" of modern telecommunications.    That is the way "father" is being used.    Jesus is the "father" of the eternity.   He is the architect of ages.   Jesus is the Creator according to John 1:1-3, Col. 1:15-18 and Hebrews 1:1-3.    Jesus is the point of origin for the universe and He is the sovereign architect and Lord of the ages.

The child born is Jesus in his humanity; the son given is Jesus in his deity.   The terms that follow are terms that speak of Jesus deity and glorify the one to whom they apply.   God doesn't share His glory.   So if the child/son is glorified by being called a Wonderful Counselor, the mighty God, Father of eternity and Prince of Peace, and God doesn't share glory, the child in that verse must be God.

[firestormx]

Retrobyter ,

Isaiah 9:6 

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

I've been following this thread for a while and was curious if you would answer a question for me. If Jesus is not God then how do you explain the verse above? Thank you

Firestormx

From the Hebrew the terms refer to Jesus in His deity.   He is the mighty God.  It could not be clearer.   Everlasting Father in Hebrew reads, "avi ad"  or "Father of eternity."   It is not using the term "father"  in a paternal sense.    It is using the term in a way that points to the origin of something else.   We say that Alexander Graham Bell is the "father" of modern telecommunications.    That is the way "father" is being used.    Jesus is the "father" of the eternity.   He is the architect of ages.   Jesus is the Creator according to John 1:1-3, Col. 1:15-18 and Hebrews 1:1-3.    Jesus is the point of origin for the universe and He is the sovereign architect and Lord of the ages.

The child born is Jesus in his humanity; the son given is Jesus in his deity.   The terms that follow are terms that speak of Jesus deity and glorify the one to whom they apply.   God doesn't share His glory.   So if the child/son is glorified by being called a Wonderful Counselor, the mighty God, Father of eternity and Prince of Peace, and God doesn't share glory, the child in that verse must be God.

Thank you for such a clear and precise answer. I was beginning to think I was alone in my understanding of this verse.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Joseph (Firestormx). 

Shalom, Joseph (Firestormx) 

Retrobyter ,

Isaiah 9:6 

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

ok, we will have to agree to disagree I guess. In everything I have ever read on this verse and with all my study it seems clear to me it is calling the son born unto us the mighty God, the everlasting father. Every translation I have ever read backs up my understanding of this verse. For you to say " I see the verse saying, “The mighty God is devising a miracle: My powerful, eternal Father [devising] a Winner of Peace." " Is to say every translation there is translates this verse wrong. I see no other possibility. For the son to be called the everlasting Father and the mighty God, either it's true or this verse is blaspheme .  I appreciate your response, but I must vehemently disagree with you on this subject and your understanding of this verse.  To deny Christ being God is to nullify the Crucifixion. I am at a complete loss of what else to say other than I will pray for you. If Jesus was/is not God then he wasn't/isn't worthy to die for our sin, the Crucifixion was in vain and we are all still in our sin. All of Christianity revolves around the deity of Christ . I will pray for you. I wish I knew what else to say. I feel so sorry for you. I will pray that your eyes are opened to the truth on this.

God bless you

Firestormx

Joseph

And, “in everything [you] have ever read,” when have you ever read anything from a Jewish point of view? Look, I can understand why Christians would read Christian books, but if you want to understand the HEBREW behind a verse, particularly the grammar, you MUST read it from a point of view that understands Hebrew, namely, to know which words are which parts of speech in the language. We DON’T just have a string of nouns all put together! IF they were just a group of names or proper nouns put together, then they would ALL be in the construct state and you would have to put an “of” between them ALL! IF they were all INTENDED to be a group of names or proper nouns listed for the Messiah, they would have had the Hebrew letter vav in front of them, most often translated as “and."

Yes I've looked at this from the Jewish point of view and I disagree with your translation of this verse. I honestly believe you are doing what I have seen you accuse others of doing, translating this verse through the lens of your beliefs instead of letting the bible translate itself. If Jesus is not God then he was just another man, like me or you, unfit to be a spotless sacrifice and it would be impossible for him to be sinless. Only God is without sin, Only God can forgive sin. If Jesus is not God then what is he,  what exactly is Jesus if he is not God? I don't see what is so complicated about this. You are a body, a spirit, and a soul. You are all 3 but 1. All 3 can separated one from the other but all 3 are still 100% you.  We were made after the image of God. Just as we are 3 but 1 so is God. God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit. All 3 separate and distinct but yet all 3 are 1 and all 3 still the same person, God . If we are 3 but 1 why is it so hard to grasp that God is as well?

 

P.S. Do me a favor, go look at how every other translation renders this verse. None of them say what you do, None!

And, ALL of those other translations were produced by English-speaking people whose first language is English and whose religion is Christianity. Thus, their interpretations would be slanted, don’t you think? And, don’t you think that their translations would follow their interpretations? They would be HEAVILY INFLUENCED by what they believe! Besides, what you said is wrong! I’ve shown you one other translation that does NOT word it that way: The JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH! Here’s their translation:

Isaiah 9:5-6

5 For a child has been born to us, A son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler.” --

6 In token of abundant authority And of peace without limit Upon David’s throne and kingdom, That it may be firmly established In justice and in equity Now and evermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts Shall bring this to pass.

JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

Don’t just shun it, hold up your cross to ward against it, turn your face away from it as though it was the devil, and say, “Blasphemy! Sacrilege!” LEARN FROM IT! You don’t have to accept it as complete truth, but it IS a “Catch-22,” a “double bind!” Ironically, although the people do not believe that Yeshua` is the Messiah, they DO believe in a Messiah! [Although they won’t accept (YET) that Jesus is the Messiah, THEY SHALL!] THEY are the “people of the Book!” THEY are the ones who have preserved the language of the Book! THEY are the ones who revived what might have been considered a “dead language!" THEY are the ones who know the grammar of that language! THEY are the ones who so revere and worship the God of their ancestors, YHVH (the LORD) who is OUR GOD, TOO, that they continually fight for His Word! THEY are the ones who have given us the means to understand the OT!

Have you INDEED looked at this from the Jewish point of view? Do you know Hebrew enough to know what is (are) the verbs in this statement? OR, are you viewing them as just a string of relatively unrelated proper nouns (and their adjectives)? Allow me to re-iterate: a string of nouns, even proper nouns, would be listed with the Hebrew letter “vav” at the beginning of each new noun! Not to do so would cause confusion in the Hebrew language (as it has here)! YOU CAN’T JUST SAY THESE ARE FOUR (or FIVE) PROPER NOUNS ALL STRUNG TOGETHER! If the Hebrew is seen in a confused way, imagine what happens when one translates it to another language, like English, for instance! Errors are ALWAYS compounded and accumulative! If (or when) a person starts from a wrongly formed premise (makes an initial, wrongly formed assumption), any conclusion he or she draws involving this premise will be likewise wrong! Even when one accidentally comes to a conclusion that LOOKS right, because the initial understanding was incorrect, so will be the understanding of the conclusion!

You said, “If Jesus is not God then he was just another man, like me or you, unfit to be a spotless sacrifice and it would be impossible for him to be sinless. Only God is without sin, Only God can forgive sin.” Really? Then, what of those innocent animals who were sacrificed? Could they be "spotless and unblemished?” (Ex. 12:5; 29:1; Lev. 1:3, 10; 3:1, 6; 4:3, 23, 28, 32; 5:15, 18; 6:6; 9:2, 3; 13:2, 4, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26, 28, 39; 14:10, 56; 21:17, 18, 20, 21, 23; 22:19, 20, 21; 23:12, 18; 24:19, 20; Num. 6:14; 19:2; 28:3, 9, 11, 19, 31; 29:2, 8, 13, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29, 32, 36; Deut. 15:21; 17:1) Besides, you’re not listening to me (any better than does shiloh357): Yeshua` WAS the Word and IS the Incarnate Word, the Son of God! Wasn’t the Incarnation a feat of Creation?!

John 1:1-14

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. 

6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 

10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 
NIV

Luke 1:26-56

26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." 
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus (Ieesous in Greek, Yeeshuwa` in Hebrew/Aramaic). 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." 
34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 
35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37 For nothing is impossible with God." 
38 "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. 
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!" 
46 And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord

47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

48 for he has been mindful

of the humble state of his servant.

From now on all generations will call me blessed,

49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me —

holy is his name.

50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,

from generation to generation.

51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;

he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.

52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones

but has lifted up the humble.

53 He has filled the hungry with good things

but has sent the rich away empty.

54 He has helped his servant Israel,

remembering to be merciful

55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,

even as he said to our fathers." 
56 Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home. 
NIV

The incarnation was a MIRACLE! Not just in the fact that Miryam (Mary) was a virgin who gave birth, but in the very creation of the body who became the Son of God! The Word of God BECAME flesh! A child is normally formed from the egg of the mother (XX chromosomes) and the seed of the father (XY chromosomes). In the Incarnation, God CREATED "the seed of the woman” (XY chromosomes) in addition to the egg (XX chromosomes) to conceive the body of His Son!

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 
6 Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7 but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8 And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

and became obedient to death —

even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

and gave him the name that is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father. 
NIV

And,

Ephesians 1:15-23

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church (Israel), 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. 
NIV

So, Yeshua` IS indeed human; in fact, He is the EPITOME of human beings, being better than Adam was! He is 100% man!

 AND, He has been highly exalted above EVERY TITLE THAT CAN BE GIVEN! Indeed, as far as anyone else could see, He is as God to all! From our lowly position, He is God’s Messiah! God’s Representative! The unique and the very SON OF GOD!

And, Yeshua` Himself said, 

Matthew 9:1-8

1 And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
KJV

Mark 2:1-12

1 And again he entered into Capernaum, after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.
2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
KJV

Luke 5:17-26

17 And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was present to heal them.
18 And, behold, men brought in a bed a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought means to bring him in, and to lay him before him.
19 And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus.
20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.
26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.
KJV

So, Yeshua`, being a man, had the power - Greek: exousia, authority - GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD, HIS FATHER upon earth to forgive sins! Don’t be duped by the words of the scribes and Pharisees! God may have the right to forgive sins, but He also gave that authority, that right, to His Son!

Finally, you said, “You are a body, a spirit, and a soul. You are all 3 but 1. All 3 can separated one from the other but all 3 are still 100% you.  We were made after the image of God. Just as we are 3 but 1 so is God. God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit. All 3 separate and distinct but yet all 3 are 1 and all 3 still the same person, God . If we are 3 but 1 why is it so hard to grasp that God is as well?”

Sorry, but we are NOT “3 but 1”; we are a body with a breath (“spirit") making up a breathing body (“soul"). TWO parts (Genesis 2:7)! And, God is not "3 but 1,” which again is Trinitarian thought and doctrine; He is ONE GOD, YHWH by name, the Father, who gives the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym, the Holy Spirit, and has a Son, the SON of God (NOT "God the Son!"), who once was the Word and who now goes by the given name, Yeeshuwa` Natsaratiy (Jesus of Nazareth), who is both Mashiach laMelekh (the Anointed One to be the King) and Kohen Gadowl (High Priest) after the order of Malkhiy-Tsedeq (Melchizedek, “My King of Righteousness”), King of Salem (“King of Peace")!

[firestormx]

Shalom, Joseph (Firestormx). 

Yes I've looked at this from the Jewish point of view and I disagree with your translation of this verse. I honestly believe you are doing what I have seen you accuse others of doing, translating this verse through the lens of your beliefs instead of letting the bible translate itself. If Jesus is not God then he was just another man, like me or you, unfit to be a spotless sacrifice and it would be impossible for him to be sinless. Only God is without sin, Only God can forgive sin. If Jesus is not God then what is he,  what exactly is Jesus if he is not God? I don't see what is so complicated about this. You are a body, a spirit, and a soul. You are all 3 but 1. All 3 can separated one from the other but all 3 are still 100% you.  We were made after the image of God. Just as we are 3 but 1 so is God. God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit. All 3 separate and distinct but yet all 3 are 1 and all 3 still the same person, God . If we are 3 but 1 why is it so hard to grasp that God is as well?

 

P.S. Do me a favor, go look at how every other translation renders this verse. None of them say what you do, None!

And, ALL of those other translations were produced by English-speaking people whose first language is English and whose religion is Christianity. Thus, their interpretations would be slanted, don’t you think? And, don’t you think that their translations would follow their interpretations? They would be HEAVILY INFLUENCED by what they believe! Besides, what you said is wrong! I’ve shown you one other translation that does NOT word it that way: The JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH! Here’s their translation:

 

Look, I don't know what to say other than I will pray for you. If you won't accept truth you won't accept it. I can't make you. I mean, this is why the Jews of Jesus day wanted to and finally did crucify him. They understood his claim and that he made it clear he was equal to God the Father.

John 5:18   (KJV)

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, firestormx. 

 

Look, I don't know what to say other than I will pray for you. If you won't accept truth you won't accept it. I can't make you. I mean, this is why the Jews of Jesus day wanted to and finally did crucify him. They understood his claim and that he made it clear he was equal to God the Father.

John 5:18   (KJV)

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Thank you for your prayers and concern, but really I’m just fine with God. He is my Father through the blood of Yeshua` haMashiach sacrificed for my sin. I trust in God, and His Son, the very Son of God, was both sinless and sufficient as the sacrifice for all mankind.

Don’t go nuts with what the Jews BELIEVED Yeshua` was saying. He was NOT "making Himself equal with God" any more than He had “broken (violated) the Shabbat!” That was merely their self-righteous OPINION, based on their oral traditions, NOT based upon the Torah (Instruction, “Law”) of God! Yeshua` could NOT have violated the Shabbat for that would have made Him guilty of breaking one of the Ten Commandments, and we know that He was sinless! And, neither did He make Himself equal with God by saying that God was His Father, any more than David or Shlomoh (Solomon) did! (2 Sam. 7:14; 1 Chron. 17:13; 22:10.)

Exodus 20:8-11

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
KJV

Hebrews 4:15

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
KJV

2 Corinthians 5:20-21

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV

 

[firestormx]

Shalom, firestormx. 

 

Look, I don't know what to say other than I will pray for you. If you won't accept truth you won't accept it. I can't make you. I mean, this is why the Jews of Jesus day wanted to and finally did crucify him. They understood his claim and that he made it clear he was equal to God the Father.

John 5:18   (KJV)

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Thank you for your prayers and concern, but really I’m just fine with God. He is my Father through the blood of Yeshua` haMashiach sacrificed for my sin. I trust in God, and His Son, the very Son of God, was both sinless and sufficient as the sacrifice for all mankind.

Don’t go nuts with what the Jews BELIEVED Yeshua` was saying. He was NOT "making Himself equal with God" any more than He had “broken (violated) the Shabbat!” That was merely their self-righteous OPINION, based on their oral traditions

Ok, then how about this verse, Because in this verse it seems clear that Jesus was claiming to be God.

John 10:33

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

 

 

 

[hmbld]

Somewhere i remember hearing, "You don't have to agree with me just because I'm right!"

 

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, hmbld. 

Somewhere i remember hearing, "You don't have to agree with me just because I'm right!"

 

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.

The Greek words in John 8:58 are “egoo eimi.” It is indeed in the present tense, but as so many words in the present tense, in the narrative form, we translate the words in the past tense for English speech: “I was."

Also, the exact same two Greek words were used in Mark 6:50:

Mark 6:50

50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.
KJV

Today, we would render the translation as “Cheer up! It’s me! Don’t be afraid,” although technically speaking, it is incorrect in English grammar to say, “It’s me."

We say that the word “eimi” is the first person, singular, present indicative tense of the verb, “einai,” meaning “to exist.” Several ways that the word could be translated are “I am,” “I exist,” “I do exist,” and “I am existing.” When “egoo” meaning “I” is added to this verb, it is for emphasis as the pronoun is implied in the verb form.

In John 9:9, the blind man said these same words, and you won’t find the Pharisees trying to stone HIM for blasphemy!

John 9:1-9

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,

7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?

9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he (Greek: egoo eimi).
KJV

We also hear sermons based on the following text:

John 18:3-9

3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he (Greek: egoo eimi). And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
KJV

We know that the words in Hebrew are assumed to be the first person singular form of the verb “hayah,” “ehyeh,” the basis for “haShem” (“the Name”) that God gave Moshe (Moses) at the burning bush:

Exodus 3:13-15

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
KJV

And, it is true that AT THE TIME OF AVRAHAM, PRIOR TO THE INCARNATION, Yeshua` WAS INDEED the Word! Timing is everything. Chronological order makes a difference in understanding the Bible. For instance, not everything that Yeshua` said during His "earthly ministry” (His first offer of the Kingdom to Israel) was intended to be a universal truth. When Yeshua` said,

Matthew 10:34-39

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
KJV

This is akin to a cut-off date for a class in college. What Yeshua` was saying was that His time was limited. If one was going to become His student (His disciple) while He was still alive, they would have to abandon family and ambition and dedicate his or her life to following Him.

HOWEVER, these words of Yeshua` were NEVER intended to be taken as “universalisms!” They were for THAT TIME ONLY!

Another such instance was Luke 10:

Luke 10:1-17

1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
KJV

This, occurrence, too, was a temporary thing. They were sent SPECIFICALLY to the towns and villages in the Land of Israel to herald the coming of the King Apparent, the Messiah. However, when the Messiah was rejected, He also rejected them (those of that time period), and He rescinded the offer of the Kingdom until such time in the future when they could accept Him as YHWH’S Messiah:

Matthew 23:33-39

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Thus, the Bible is full of various truths, but several of these truths are TIME SPECIFIC and LIMITED TO CERTAIN TIME PERIODS!

[enoob57]

does length of ... never mind