The Lord Jesus Christ

[JohnD]

Jesus is YHVH (John 8:58) and the primary individual in the Godhead man has dealt with (especially in the Old Testament). This is why the Old Testament is filled with passages declaring "then they will know that I AM the LORD." And in the New Testament:

 

John 1:18 (AV)

¹⁸No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

John 5:37 (AV)

³⁷And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

 

The Father was there as was the Holy Spirit obviously, but humanity was unaware of the Father especially.

[Guest shiloh357]

It's not my opinion Retro.   If you cannot say Jesus is God, if you can't believe that, you are denying a basic, essential doctrine of Scripture that is required for all believers to accept.   We don't get to accept Jesus on our terms, but only as he revealed himself.

 

Jesus didn't deny his own deity that is absurd.

 

In John 10:33 his enemies understood that Jesus was claiming to be God.   Jesus did not correct that understanding.   Jesus quotation of Psalm 82:6-8 is not a denial Jesus' deity.   He is actually making a light to heavy line of argumentation.    The word "elohim" is used for human magistrates and official representatives who are commissioned by God himself.  His point is that if they can call those men "gods"   then how much more appropriate for Jesus whom God has sanctified and sent into the world to be called the "Son of God"  which is another way of expressing Jesus' deity??    

 

When the Gospel of John refers to Jesus as a the Son of God, it is a declaration of Jesus' deity, not a lesser than God, title.

 

As for the account of Jesus' encounter with the rich young ruler, Matt. 19:17 should be correctly rendered from the Greek, "why do you ask me concerning what is good? One there is here that is good..."   That Greek rendering pretty much torpedoes the argument that Jesus was denying he was good and thus denying he was God.   Jesus was not denying his deity at all.  Jesus was taking the focus of the conversation and placing it on the man's imprisonment to his wealth.   He had great wealth and in those days, wealth was assumed to be God's blessing.  This man was used to being honored everywhere he went.

 

The man called Jesus "good master"  but it was a form of condescending flattery.   By all of the cultural religious standards of the day, the man was already a recipient of eternal life.  He wasn't actually expecting Jesus to say that he lacked anything.  He was expecting the kind of honor he was used to from others, to come from Jesus as well.   Jesus ignored the flattery and turned the attention to man's soul.

 

Denying the deity of Jesus IS antithetical to the Gospels, because either Jesus was God on  the cross, or he wasn't.   If Jesus was not God incarnate on the cross, then his death had no meaning and is no more important to us than the death of he two thieves.

 

Ah, now the message of Jesus death, burial resurrection and justification by faith are now erroneously called salvation???    Wow.  Your false teaching is just getting deeper and deeper.   I know lots of "Messianic Jews"   and they don't believe any of garbage you post.   You don't reflect genuine Messianic Judaism.   You reflect an errant doctrinal position you have cooked up yourself.

 

No one who believes as you do has any part in the Kingdom to come.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

[RustyAngeL]

"Lord"  means that Jesus the Divine Sovereign over the Universe (that means He's God)

 

"Jesus" (Y'shua)  Jesus is Salvation.  Jesus is eternal life.  Only God can be and impart eternal life (that means that Jesus is God).

 

"Messiah" denotes a unique relationship that Jesus has with Israel, as their king and deliverer and that relationship between God and Israel is established in the OT and further fulfilled in the Gospels and Millennial Kingdom.

 

So, the phrase, "Lord Jesus Christ"  refers to the sovereign God of universe who departs eternal life and is eternally faithful to covenant He made with Abraham and his descendants to be their God forever.

Once again my brother is point on.  Shiloh we are so glad Worthy has such a wonderful gift as you.  love you brother.

 

Because He Lives!!

                RustyAngeL

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bible2.

 

 

Retrobyter said in post 80:

 

Matthew 19:16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

Note that Jesus allowed people to call him God (John 20:28), and he affirmed that he is good (John 10:11) and one with God (John 10:30). So the point of his question in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, and Luke 18:19 wasn't to deny that he is God or good, but "why" was the man calling him good? Jesus knew that the man didn't believe Jesus was God. So Jesus was warning him not to just go around calling different people good, but to call only God good.

 

 

I’m going to start with you and show you a few points. Hopefully, you will see the simple way that I have come to alternate conclusions.

 

You said, “Jesus allowed people to call him God,” and noted John 20:28. Let’s look at the context:

 

John 20:19-31

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, (1) My Lord (Yeshua`) and (2) my God (the Father).

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

KJV

 

When Yeshua` first met with His students following His resurrection, He told them of their mission, that they were to be "sent ones” (Greek: “apostoloi" transliterated to “apostles”), sent by Himself and by His Father through Him. Yeshua` also breathed on them, and they received the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God. However, T’oma (Thomas) was not among them.

 

When they told T’oma that they saw the Lord (Yeshua`), he strongly voiced his disbelief to them all. So, when Yeshua` returned when T’oma was also present, Yeshua` offered for T’oma to feel personally His wounds so he would not remain faithless.

 

T’oma, now a witness to Yeshua`s resurrected body, recanted of his disbelief and made the statement that is written for us as, “Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou.” “The master of-me and the God of-me.” He was not talking to ONE Person; He was talking to BOTH Persons! Thus, it is an error to say that Yeshua` allowed T’oma to call Him “God.” 

 

As far as Yeshua` calling Himself “good,” it’s not the same word in Greek. When Yeshua` asked in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, and Luke 18:19, “Why callest thou me good?” The word “good” is the Greek word “agathos.” However, in John 10:11, 14, Yeshua` used a different word to say He was the “good shepherd”; it’s the Greek word “kalos."

 

NT:18 agathos (ag-ath-os'); a primary word; "good" (in any sense, often as noun):

KJV - benefit, good (-s, things), well. Compare NT:2570.

 

NT:2570 kalos (kal-os'); of uncertain affinity; properly, beautiful, but chiefly (figuratively) good (literally or morally), i.e. valuable or virtuous (for appearance or use, and thus distinguished from NT:18, which is properly intrinsic):

KJV -  better, fair, good (-ly), honest, meet, well, worthy.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

So, it’s not the same word, and your argument fails to prove your point.

[Guest shiloh357]

On what basis do you claim that Thomas was talking to two Persons and not simply Jesus???   He was calling Jesus both Lord and God and there is no basis in the Greek to argue that He was addressing anyone other than Jesus.

 

Jesus' question to the rich young ruler in Matt. 19:17 was not a denial of His deity.   Jesus was responding to the insincere flattery of the rich man.   The rich man had come to Jesus already assuming his own personal goodness and Jesus turned the tables on him and forced him to see that he was a prisoner to his wealth.  The rich man was used to being honored and respected and he got a response from Jesus that he didn't expect, as Jesus turned the man's attention to his on bankrupt soul.

 

There is nothing in that story that can be twisted or perverted into a denial of Jesus' deity.

[Bible2]

Retrobyter said in post 88:

 

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, (1) My Lord (Yeshua`) and (2) my God (the Father).

 

Rather:

 

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him (Yeshua), My Lord (Yeshua) and my God (Yeshua) . . .

 

Just as the "and" in Galatians 1:4, for example, isn't saying that the "God" and the "Father" there are two different people:

 

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father . . .

 

See also post #29 above.

 

Retrobyter said in post 88:

 

When Yeshua` asked in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, and Luke 18:19, “Why callest thou me good?” The word “good” is the Greek word “agathos.” However, in John 10:11, 14, Yeshua` used a different word to say He was the “good shepherd”; it’s the Greek word “kalos."

 

Note that to imply that Jesus isn't "good" (agathos: G0018) "in any sense" (Strong's Greek Dictionary) is blasphemy.

 

For even some non-divine humans can be referred to (even by Jesus) as "good" (agathos) (e.g. Matthew 5:45, Matthew 22:10, Matthew 25:21,23, Luke 6:45, Luke 19:17, Luke 23:50, Acts 11:24, Titus 2:5). So how much more the only man who is without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21)?

[Bible2]

thereselittleflower said in post 94 (a post that was lost):

 

To be sinless, to never be under satan's rule, one would need an unfallen human nature.

 

That brings to mind Romans 5:19a, which is the doctrine of original sin, and which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned, just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

 

Because of original sin, we are guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin isn't our only guiltiness before God, for we have all as individuals committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to saved people (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

 

If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

[Bible2]

shiloh357 said in post 97 (a post that was lost):

 

Jesus was not the product of Mary or Joseph.

 

Note that Mary did conceive Jesus, solely by the Holy Spirit, before she had any sexual relations with Joseph (Matthew 1:18), or with any other man, for that matter (Luke 1:34-35). It is for this reason that Jesus is the only begotten (only born) Son of God (John 3:16, Luke 1:34-35), meaning that he is the only person ever born without any human father. But he is still also the Son of David (Matthew 21:9) in the sense of his being that physical descendent of David (Romans 1:3) who is the foretold Messiah/Christ (John 7:42). So Mary must have been descended from David, or else Jesus would have no physical descent from David. Because the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are different, one passing through David's son Solomon (Matthew 1:6) and the other through David's son Nathan (Luke 3:31), the latter genealogy can be Mary's. In this case, Joseph, the husband of Mary, can be the son of Heli (Luke 3:23) in the sense of his being his son-in-law.

[Guest shiloh357]

I didn't say that Jesus was not a physical child of Mary.    My point is that Jesus' life didn't come from Mary.   Jesus was pre-existent of his birth.   Jesus simply took on human flesh.  Jesus was still God, the moment Mary conceived.     The irony is that the RCC calls Mary of the Mother of God.  It is God who brought Mary into the world.   Jesus was/is Mary's Creator and He is the one who gave her life.