what is the way.. for who died without hearing gospel.

[OakWood]

The Bible clearly shows Mary as only Jesus' mother, not compassionate,  not an intercessor, not His equal, she was a vessel as God uses human vessels for His purposes. She is made an idol of worship by the rcc . She was only blessed by the fact that Jesus was born to this human vessel, that is how she was blessed, the Bible does not call her Holy or mother of God.

 

Are you saying that God would choose someone for the Mother of the Son of God, God the Son, God made man, someone who was not compasionate?

How can anyone allege that Mary is not an intercessor when it is by her intercession Jesus began his ministry with his first miracle?  How can you deny the role Mary plaid which scriptures so clearly reveal?

 

John 2

1On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. 7Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” So they filled them up to the brim. 8And He said to them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it to him. 9When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

      12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

 

John the beloved disciple to whom Jesus gave charge of Mary when Jesus was dying on the cross, for John to take her as his mother,  treats Mary with the utmost respect in this beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

Mary is the one to bring to Jesus' attention the need for wine.    She acts as an intercessor for those in need, even without their knowledge she is doing so.

Jesus responds with the utmost respect and doesn't merely ask her what this has to do with him, but specifically asks what does this have to do WITH US - thus including Mary.

Mary then turns  back to those in need and tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them to do.     This is the ongoing message of Mary, to do whatever Jesus tells us to do.

It was through Mary's intervention, through her intercession that Jesus begins his ministry and performed his first miracle.    It was through Mary that Jesus manifested his glory for the first time.   It was through Mary's intercession his disciples belielved in him.

Then John puts Mary at the head of the list of those who went with Jesus to Capernaum, giving her this position of honor and importance.

 

To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, scripture puts Mary at each of the major events of Jesus' life and ministry.   This is how important she is to christianity. This is how important she is to Jesus' ministry of redemption. And when Mary is introduced to us in the Gospel of Luke, the Angel calls her Kecharitomene.   This word is used only once in all of scriptures.   It is used to tell us who Mary is.

 

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:5

Notice the word 'one'. It's very simple.......

Nobody is saying that Mary is not important to Christianity, but so is Peter, John, Paul, John the Baptist, Moses and various other figures. The level of reverence attached to Mary is nothing short of idolatry.

 

[thereselittleflower]

gdemoss, I agree that it is a shame that certain members seem to make an issue of attacking the Catholic Church and Cathoilcs.

I am sorry you aren't understanding the scriptures properly regarding Mary.    Reading the scriptures divorced from the culture, time, language  etc will yield results other than that intended by the authors.

Your words make me cringe for you and I am thankful that Christ is patient.

 

If you want to understand who Mary is, then seek to understand Kecharitomene, for this is who she is,  she is Kecharitomene.

 

 

 

You do not agree with me for I am against you not with you.  I was talking about you turning every thread you go into into a rcc circus. 

It was something you said that inspired me to study Mary.  I had even asked God to search me before hand that I be given an open heart and mind unbiased by previously held convictions if there be any truth in what you presented here let me see and understand.  God opened up my eyes wider and showed me how the scriptures pertaining to Mary flow together flawlessly showing that she was a sinner who needed a savior and found God in Christ Jesus just the same way as we all have too.

I won't debate with you about this for you cannot receive what I have to offer.  God has assured me of that.

Doctrine is not simply something that is learned through book study and ministry by elders to the younger but rather combined with teaching while preforming the actual works before the student.  Jesus taught his disciples by word and deed.

I learned what the scriptures meant by walking in them and seeking to be filled by the Holy Spirit which is the only way to preform that which is written. I understand my understanding is still lacking as I have not arrived at a place of being holy in tge purest form of the word.  More will be revealed but not by you.

 

gdemoss, I have simply responded to those who have bashed the Catholic Church and Her beliefs, addressed false claims about them, and answered questions.  That is all.  I am not the one who has brought up the Catholic faith here on this forum.

Your claim to hear God's leading has much to be desired, for I have done the same as you, in fact more than you, from a point far more antagonistic to the Catholic Church's teachings on Mary, and over a period of 8 months to  a year, not simply a few hours or days, God showed me the exact opposite of what you claim He has shown you regarding the Mother of Jesus.

It cannot be possible for God to lead in two different directions, and since my study of a year steeped in prayer, fighting what God was showing me tooth and nail, having no desire to believe what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary, but having a greater desire to know  the truth, I simply cannot believe that you have actually heard God on this.

I have not seen anything demonstrated other than you have read into the scriptures what you want to find there.   Your approach to the scriptures is biased.   It is so biased that, given the way the human mind worls,  it is simply not possible to undo that bias in such a short time apart from a miracle of God.  

I have been demonstrating what the scriptures actually say about Mary.  I have been demonstrating that they do not say what you say they say.   The very scriptures you say show you what you believe about Mary show in actuality you are wrong.

For you to claim that you will not explain how I am wrong because God has shown you I won't understand is quite frankly a cop out.  People who choose to give some supernatural reason for not proving their interpretation of scripture indicates they can't demonstrate how they are right when the scriptures they use are examined closely under a microscope.  If I am wrong in what I am showing from scripture, you should be more than able to demonstrate this from scripture and have your demonstration stand the test of scrutiny.    Instead, you are using a supernatural excuse to avoid doing so.  

It is your choice not to prove your claims from scripture.  But that means then your claims, despite your appeal to supernatural understanding, are not fact, but opinion only, with no real scriptural support.

I believe better of you than this.

gdemoss, the voice you claim to be hearing -  what if it isn't God?  What if your biases are simply deceiving your and you are wrong about all of this?

What if you are wrong?

Have you even begun to understand what Kecharitomene is and means?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[thereselittleflower]

The Bible clearly shows Mary as only Jesus' mother, not compassionate,  not an intercessor, not His equal, she was a vessel as God uses human vessels for His purposes. She is made an idol of worship by the rcc . She was only blessed by the fact that Jesus was born to this human vessel, that is how she was blessed, the Bible does not call her Holy or mother of God.

 

Are you saying that God would choose someone for the Mother of the Son of God, God the Son, God made man, someone who was not compasionate?

How can anyone allege that Mary is not an intercessor when it is by her intercession Jesus began his ministry with his first miracle?  How can you deny the role Mary plaid which scriptures so clearly reveal?

 

John 2

1On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. 7Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” So they filled them up to the brim. 8And He said to them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it to him. 9When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

      12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

 

John the beloved disciple to whom Jesus gave charge of Mary when Jesus was dying on the cross, for John to take her as his mother,  treats Mary with the utmost respect in this beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

Mary is the one to bring to Jesus' attention the need for wine.    She acts as an intercessor for those in need, even without their knowledge she is doing so.

Jesus responds with the utmost respect and doesn't merely ask her what this has to do with him, but specifically asks what does this have to do WITH US - thus including Mary.

Mary then turns  back to those in need and tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them to do.     This is the ongoing message of Mary, to do whatever Jesus tells us to do.

It was through Mary's intervention, through her intercession that Jesus begins his ministry and performed his first miracle.    It was through Mary that Jesus manifested his glory for the first time.   It was through Mary's intercession his disciples belielved in him.

Then John puts Mary at the head of the list of those who went with Jesus to Capernaum, giving her this position of honor and importance.

 

To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, scripture puts Mary at each of the major events of Jesus' life and ministry.   This is how important she is to christianity. This is how important she is to Jesus' ministry of redemption. And when Mary is introduced to us in the Gospel of Luke, the Angel calls her Kecharitomene.   This word is used only once in all of scriptures.   It is used to tell us who Mary is.

 

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:5

Notice the word 'one'. It's very simple.......

Nobody is saying that Mary is not important to Christianity, but so is Peter, John, Paul, John the Baptist, Moses and various other figures. The level of reverence attached to Mary is nothing short of idolatry.

 

 

Proof texting is indeed a dangerous practice.   Your use of the scripture here completely ignores the context of the words you wish to use, as  well as the fuller context of scripture on the subject of Christ's mediation, and so the real message is missed.

 

There is indeed one mediator between man and God.

What is the full scriptural context of this "one mediaton"  ?

• 1 Timothy 2 
•  5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

 

Notice the word  "for" at the beginning of the verse?    This means what follows is given as a reason for something else, as a justification for something else he just said.  What it is given as a reason for?

 

• A Call to Prayer
•   1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

 

So Paul tells Timothy to engage in the act of mediaton through entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgivings to God  ON BEHALF OF ALL MEN -  and the REASON Timothy is to engage in in such mediation between God and all men, is because Jesus is the one mediator, because of Jesus' mediation; and Jesus being the one mediator is tied by Paul to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, giving himself as a ransom.  What did he give himself as a ransom for?  Our salvation.  How is our salvation provided for? Through the New Covenant.  How did he establish the New Covenant?  Through his blood, which is the blood of the New Covenant.  

• Luke 22:20
• In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 

What did Jesus establish by his death and resurrection?  The New Covenant.

 

What exactly is Jesus the one mediator of?

He is the one mediator of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

Jesus is the One Mediator of the New Covenant.    No one else can be that mediator.

 

That does not mean that this encompasses all forms of mediation and thus excludes participation by anyone else in any other form of mediation, otherwise you could not pray for someone else, for praying for someone else is approaching God on their behalf which makes you a mediator.  

If you are not a mediator, then you better stop praying for others.   But then, if you did stop praying for others, you would be violating God's commands in scriptures to pray for others, to approach God on their behalf in prayer:  What a dilemma you created for yourself.

But there really is no such dilemma.

As Paul in 1 Timothy 2 says, we can approach God on behalf of others, mediate with God on behalf of others, BECAUSE Christ is the One Mediator.  Paul tells us it is BECAUSE of Christ being the One Mediator of the New Covenant that we are able to participate in acts of mediation for others, indeed for ALL MEN, coming before God on their behalf with entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgivings.

It is because Jesus is the One Mediator we also become mediators  to God on behalf of others.  

Jesus being the One Mediator does not exclude anyone else from being mediators on behalf of others before God.    Jesus being the One Mediator ENABLES us, MAKES IT POSSIBLE for us to be mediators on behalf of others before God.

 

This is scripture.

 

This is the word of the Lord.

 

It was through Mary's mediation, intercession to Jesus, who is fully God as well as fully man,  on behalf of those who had run out of wine and would suffer embarrassment for not having seen to the needs of their guests properly, that Jesus began his ministry.

 

This is scripture.

 

This is the word of the Lord.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[thereselittleflower]

The Bible clearly shows Mary as only Jesus' mother, not compassionate,  not an intercessor, not His equal, she was a vessel as God uses human vessels for His purposes. She is made an idol of worship by the rcc . She was only blessed by the fact that Jesus was born to this human vessel, that is how she was blessed, the Bible does not call her Holy or mother of God.

 

Are you saying that God would choose someone for the Mother of the Son of God, God the Son, God made man, someone who was not compasionate?

How can anyone allege that Mary is not an intercessor when it is by her intercession Jesus began his ministry with his first miracle?  How can you deny the role Mary plaid which scriptures so clearly reveal?

 

John 2

1On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. 7Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” So they filled them up to the brim. 8And He said to them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it to him. 9When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

      12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

 

John the beloved disciple to whom Jesus gave charge of Mary when Jesus was dying on the cross, for John to take her as his mother,  treats Mary with the utmost respect in this beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

Mary is the one to bring to Jesus' attention the need for wine.    She acts as an intercessor for those in need, even without their knowledge she is doing so.

Jesus responds with the utmost respect and doesn't merely ask her what this has to do with him, but specifically asks what does this have to do WITH US - thus including Mary.

Mary then turns  back to those in need and tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them to do.     This is the ongoing message of Mary, to do whatever Jesus tells us to do.

It was through Mary's intervention, through her intercession that Jesus begins his ministry and performed his first miracle.    It was through Mary that Jesus manifested his glory for the first time.   It was through Mary's intercession his disciples belielved in him.

Then John puts Mary at the head of the list of those who went with Jesus to Capernaum, giving her this position of honor and importance.

 

To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, scripture puts Mary at each of the major events of Jesus' life and ministry.   This is how important she is to christianity. This is how important she is to Jesus' ministry of redemption. And when Mary is introduced to us in the Gospel of Luke, the Angel calls her Kecharitomene.   This word is used only once in all of scriptures.   It is used to tell us who Mary is.

 

 

 Again, You know exactly what I meant. Jesus Christ is the BLESSED ONE who is FULL of GRACE , MERCY and ALL COMPASSION --not Mary , you have her a mere mortal usurp the HOLINESS of CHRIST - it is blasphemy!

 

Then why does the Angel Gabriel call Mary Kecharitomene?

 

 

[Qnts2]

My parents been Catholics teach me to believe in Jesus Christ, that he was the Son of God, and born in the flesh through the virgin Mary, and they read to me the stories of Jesus from the original scriptures, all about his death and his resuraction. That what the believed.

How they practice their faith, and in what culture this is another matter, 

The importance is that they practice it with the correct faith. That Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins.

My Father said to me. You don't need to be a Catholic when you grow   Older, but remain truth to the faith of Jesus Christ, that he died and raised from the dead and is Gloriefied in the heavens with the Father.

Today I am not a Catholic, and I can not say that I am a "Christian" because I was a Christian all the time.

If you you want to judge the Catholic culture that's your prerogative as is also mine, but you must take into account that Jesus is accepting every one who believes in him outside of any culture.

Also as believers the Catholics are also born again trough their faith in Jesus Christ, they are also his children if they practice their culture with faith in him.

But if they practice RCC without faith in the SAVIOR then we must explain to them who do. to believe in the savior. I know they are some who practice RCC for many other reasons without faith in Christ. But very many they do. Discern the diference and don't say all. Take it on an individual basis, the way our Lord Jesus does.

If you believe they have some heresies, consider that not all heresies lead to spiritual death.

 

 

Interesting post. Thanks.

I disagree but appreciate what you have posted. A while back, I was taking classes at a seminary. A good friend and mentor told me to go to 5 different churches and observe the services. I went to a RCC church, a Lutheran church, a Congregational church, a Baptist church, and a Unitarian Universalist church. I found that the first 4 churches taught that Jesus died for sin, was buried and rose again. That Jesus is God, and believe in the Trinity. With those basic beliefs, the RCC, Lutherans, Congregational and Baptist all fall under the title of christian. The Unitarian Universalist church is not a christian church.

But, I saw some heresies/serious error at the RCC church. One was the need to confess to a Priest, and the authority of the Priest to give a penance and absolve the persons sin. Only God can forgive sin. The use of statues and kneeling before the statues. The is a violation of scripture. Praying to the dead as I have mentioned. Worshipping Mary (Hail Mary). Praying for the dead. Venerating the saints. There are a whole bunch more.

I knew of an older lady who was Catholic. I went to her house a few times to visit and help. She asked me to search for something in a drawer in the dining room. I found what she wanted but also found a statue in the drawer. I mentioned the statue and was told that it was a saint of impossible cases or something like that. She had been praying to the statue to help with a situation for a long time, but had not gotten an answer. She mentioned it to the local priest and he told her to put the statue in a drawer and do not take it out, until it answers the prayer.

[Pamelasv]

Boy this thread looked like fun.  Wish I was keeping up with it. Lol. 

 

[OakWood]

The Bible clearly shows Mary as only Jesus' mother, not compassionate,  not an intercessor, not His equal, she was a vessel as God uses human vessels for His purposes. She is made an idol of worship by the rcc . She was only blessed by the fact that Jesus was born to this human vessel, that is how she was blessed, the Bible does not call her Holy or mother of God.

 

Are you saying that God would choose someone for the Mother of the Son of God, God the Son, God made man, someone who was not compasionate?

How can anyone allege that Mary is not an intercessor when it is by her intercession Jesus began his ministry with his first miracle?  How can you deny the role Mary plaid which scriptures so clearly reveal?

 

John 2

1On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. 7Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” So they filled them up to the brim. 8And He said to them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it to him. 9When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

      12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

 

John the beloved disciple to whom Jesus gave charge of Mary when Jesus was dying on the cross, for John to take her as his mother,  treats Mary with the utmost respect in this beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

Mary is the one to bring to Jesus' attention the need for wine.    She acts as an intercessor for those in need, even without their knowledge she is doing so.

Jesus responds with the utmost respect and doesn't merely ask her what this has to do with him, but specifically asks what does this have to do WITH US - thus including Mary.

Mary then turns  back to those in need and tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them to do.     This is the ongoing message of Mary, to do whatever Jesus tells us to do.

It was through Mary's intervention, through her intercession that Jesus begins his ministry and performed his first miracle.    It was through Mary that Jesus manifested his glory for the first time.   It was through Mary's intercession his disciples belielved in him.

Then John puts Mary at the head of the list of those who went with Jesus to Capernaum, giving her this position of honor and importance.

 

To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, scripture puts Mary at each of the major events of Jesus' life and ministry.   This is how important she is to christianity. This is how important she is to Jesus' ministry of redemption. And when Mary is introduced to us in the Gospel of Luke, the Angel calls her Kecharitomene.   This word is used only once in all of scriptures.   It is used to tell us who Mary is.

 

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:5

Notice the word 'one'. It's very simple.......

Nobody is saying that Mary is not important to Christianity, but so is Peter, John, Paul, John the Baptist, Moses and various other figures. The level of reverence attached to Mary is nothing short of idolatry.

 

 

Proof texting is indeed a dangerous practice.   Your use of the scripture here completely ignores the context of the words you wish to use, as  well as the fuller context of scripture on the subject of Christ's mediation, and so the real message is missed.

 

There is indeed one mediator between man and God.

What is the full scriptural context of this "one mediaton"  ?

• 1 Timothy 2 
•  5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

 

Notice the word  "for" at the beginning of the verse?    This means what follows is given as a reason for something else, as a justification for something else he just said.  What it is given as a reason for?

 

• A Call to Prayer
•   1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

 

So Paul tells Timothy to engage in the act of mediaton through entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgivings to God  ON BEHALF OF ALL MEN -  and the REASON Timothy is to engage in in such mediation between God and all men, is because Jesus is the one mediator, because of Jesus' mediation; and Jesus being the one mediator is tied by Paul to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, giving himself as a ransom.  What did he give himself as a ransom for?  Our salvation.  How is our salvation provided for? Through the New Covenant.  How did he establish the New Covenant?  Through his blood, which is the blood of the New Covenant.  

• Luke 22:20
• In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 

What did Jesus establish by his death and resurrection?  The New Covenant.

 

What exactly is Jesus the one mediator of?

He is the one mediator of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

Jesus is the One Mediator of the New Covenant.    No one else can be that mediator.

 

That does not mean that this encompasses all forms of mediation and thus excludes participation by anyone else in any other form of mediation, otherwise you could not pray for someone else, for praying for someone else is approaching God on their behalf which makes you a mediator.  

If you are not a mediator, then you better stop praying for others.   But then, if you did stop praying for others, you would be violating God's commands in scriptures to pray for others, to approach God on their behalf in prayer:  What a dilemma you created for yourself.

But there really is no such dilemma.

As Paul in 1 Timothy 2 says, we can approach God on behalf of others, mediate with God on behalf of others, BECAUSE Christ is the One Mediator.  Paul tells us it is BECAUSE of Christ being the One Mediator of the New Covenant that we are able to participate in acts of mediation for others, indeed for ALL MEN, coming before God on their behalf with entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgivings.

It is because Jesus is the One Mediator we also become mediators  to God on behalf of others.  

Jesus being the One Mediator does not exclude anyone else from being mediators on behalf of others before God.    Jesus being the One Mediator ENABLES us, MAKES IT POSSIBLE for us to be mediators on behalf of others before God.

 

This is scripture.

 

This is the word of the Lord.

 

It was through Mary's mediation, intercession to Jesus, who is fully God as well as fully man,  on behalf of those who had run out of wine and would suffer embarrassment for not having seen to the needs of their guests properly, that Jesus began his ministry.

 

This is scripture.

 

This is the word of the Lord.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is the word of the Lord indeed and it is astonishing how you embellish it and twist it.

If Jesus enables others to be mediators too then I'm surprised that you don't worship Peter and John in the same way that you worship Mary. You have twisted scripture to the point of praying to dead people. Of course, I can pray for you - that's exactly what intercession means. I can pray for you because that shows my dedication to the Lord and I can ask you to pray for me. I would never ask a dead person to pray for me though, whether it be Mary, John or my own dead grandmother.

I find it strange that the Bible's request that we all be mediators for each other has somehow been interpreted to include speaking to the deceased. The Bible also tells us that we are to be charitable to each other and love one another, do you also assume that includes people who have been dead for two thousand years? You are also putting Mary on equal footing with Jesus which is incredibly blasphemous and I will not stomach this any more. God makes it quite clear that we are not to try and communicate with the dead.

Frankly I'm not really going to indulge you in your heresies any longer. Say what you will.

[thereselittleflower]

The Bible clearly shows Mary as only Jesus' mother, not compassionate,  not an intercessor, not His equal, she was a vessel as God uses human vessels for His purposes. She is made an idol of worship by the rcc . She was only blessed by the fact that Jesus was born to this human vessel, that is how she was blessed, the Bible does not call her Holy or mother of God.

 

Are you saying that God would choose someone for the Mother of the Son of God, God the Son, God made man, someone who was not compasionate?

How can anyone allege that Mary is not an intercessor when it is by her intercession Jesus began his ministry with his first miracle?  How can you deny the role Mary plaid which scriptures so clearly reveal?

 

John 2

1On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. 7Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” So they filled them up to the brim. 8And He said to them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it to him. 9When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

      12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

 

John the beloved disciple to whom Jesus gave charge of Mary when Jesus was dying on the cross, for John to take her as his mother,  treats Mary with the utmost respect in this beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

Mary is the one to bring to Jesus' attention the need for wine.    She acts as an intercessor for those in need, even without their knowledge she is doing so.

Jesus responds with the utmost respect and doesn't merely ask her what this has to do with him, but specifically asks what does this have to do WITH US - thus including Mary.

Mary then turns  back to those in need and tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them to do.     This is the ongoing message of Mary, to do whatever Jesus tells us to do.

It was through Mary's intervention, through her intercession that Jesus begins his ministry and performed his first miracle.    It was through Mary that Jesus manifested his glory for the first time.   It was through Mary's intercession his disciples belielved in him.

Then John puts Mary at the head of the list of those who went with Jesus to Capernaum, giving her this position of honor and importance.

 

To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, scripture puts Mary at each of the major events of Jesus' life and ministry.   This is how important she is to christianity. This is how important she is to Jesus' ministry of redemption. And when Mary is introduced to us in the Gospel of Luke, the Angel calls her Kecharitomene.   This word is used only once in all of scriptures.   It is used to tell us who Mary is.

 

 

 Again, You know exactly what I meant. Jesus Christ is the BLESSED ONE who is FULL of GRACE , MERCY and ALL COMPASSION --not Mary , you have her a mere mortal usurp the HOLINESS of CHRIST - it is blasphemy!

 

The Bible clearly shows Mary as only Jesus' mother, not compassionate,  not an intercessor, not His equal, she was a vessel as God uses human vessels for His purposes. She is made an idol of worship by the rcc . She was only blessed by the fact that Jesus was born to this human vessel, that is how she was blessed, the Bible does not call her Holy or mother of God.

 

Are you saying that God would choose someone for the Mother of the Son of God, God the Son, God made man, someone who was not compasionate?

How can anyone allege that Mary is not an intercessor when it is by her intercession Jesus began his ministry with his first miracle?  How can you deny the role Mary plaid which scriptures so clearly reveal?

 

John 2

1On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. 7Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” So they filled them up to the brim. 8And He said to them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it to him. 9When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

      12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

 

John the beloved disciple to whom Jesus gave charge of Mary when Jesus was dying on the cross, for John to take her as his mother,  treats Mary with the utmost respect in this beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

Mary is the one to bring to Jesus' attention the need for wine.    She acts as an intercessor for those in need, even without their knowledge she is doing so.

Jesus responds with the utmost respect and doesn't merely ask her what this has to do with him, but specifically asks what does this have to do WITH US - thus including Mary.

Mary then turns  back to those in need and tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them to do.     This is the ongoing message of Mary, to do whatever Jesus tells us to do.

It was through Mary's intervention, through her intercession that Jesus begins his ministry and performed his first miracle.    It was through Mary that Jesus manifested his glory for the first time.   It was through Mary's intercession his disciples belielved in him.

Then John puts Mary at the head of the list of those who went with Jesus to Capernaum, giving her this position of honor and importance.

 

To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, scripture puts Mary at each of the major events of Jesus' life and ministry.   This is how important she is to christianity. This is how important she is to Jesus' ministry of redemption. And when Mary is introduced to us in the Gospel of Luke, the Angel calls her Kecharitomene.   This word is used only once in all of scriptures.   It is used to tell us who Mary is.

 

 

 Again, You know exactly what I meant. Jesus Christ is the BLESSED ONE who is FULL of GRACE , MERCY and ALL COMPASSION --not Mary , you have her a mere mortal usurp the HOLINESS of CHRIST - it is blasphemy!

 

 

 Davida, you simply wrongly accuse and do not understand my words or the beliefs of Catholics.

Catholics do not have anyone usurping anything of Christ's.

Catholics know and understand how to give love and honor to those to whom love and honor is due without usurping anything of Christ's.

You are simply misinterpreting the beliefs, words and actions of others because you simply do not understand them.

Such false accusations can only grieve the Holy Spirit.

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

The Bible clearly shows Mary as only Jesus' mother, not compassionate,  not an intercessor, not His equal, she was a vessel as God uses human vessels for His purposes. She is made an idol of worship by the rcc . She was only blessed by the fact that Jesus was born to this human vessel, that is how she was blessed, the Bible does not call her Holy or mother of God.

 

Are you saying that God would choose someone for the Mother of the Son of God, God the Son, God made man, someone who was not compasionate?

How can anyone allege that Mary is not an intercessor when it is by her intercession Jesus began his ministry with his first miracle?  How can you deny the role Mary plaid which scriptures so clearly reveal?

 

John 2

1On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. 7Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” So they filled them up to the brim. 8And He said to them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it to him. 9When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

      12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

 

John the beloved disciple to whom Jesus gave charge of Mary when Jesus was dying on the cross, for John to take her as his mother,  treats Mary with the utmost respect in this beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

Mary is the one to bring to Jesus' attention the need for wine.    She acts as an intercessor for those in need, even without their knowledge she is doing so.

Jesus responds with the utmost respect and doesn't merely ask her what this has to do with him, but specifically asks what does this have to do WITH US - thus including Mary.

Mary then turns  back to those in need and tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them to do.     This is the ongoing message of Mary, to do whatever Jesus tells us to do.

It was through Mary's intervention, through her intercession that Jesus begins his ministry and performed his first miracle.    It was through Mary that Jesus manifested his glory for the first time.   It was through Mary's intercession his disciples belielved in him.

Then John puts Mary at the head of the list of those who went with Jesus to Capernaum, giving her this position of honor and importance.

 

To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, scripture puts Mary at each of the major events of Jesus' life and ministry.   This is how important she is to christianity. This is how important she is to Jesus' ministry of redemption. And when Mary is introduced to us in the Gospel of Luke, the Angel calls her Kecharitomene.   This word is used only once in all of scriptures.   It is used to tell us who Mary is.

 

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:5

Notice the word 'one'. It's very simple.......

Nobody is saying that Mary is not important to Christianity, but so is Peter, John, Paul, John the Baptist, Moses and various other figures. The level of reverence attached to Mary is nothing short of idolatry.

 

 

Proof texting is indeed a dangerous practice.   Your use of the scripture here completely ignores the context of the words you wish to use, as  well as the fuller context of scripture on the subject of Christ's mediation, and so the real message is missed.

 

There is indeed one mediator between man and God.

What is the full scriptural context of this "one mediaton"  ?

• 1 Timothy 2 
•  5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

 

Notice the word  "for" at the beginning of the verse?    This means what follows is given as a reason for something else, as a justification for something else he just said.  What it is given as a reason for?

 

• A Call to Prayer
•   1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

 

So Paul tells Timothy to engage in the act of mediaton through entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgivings to God  ON BEHALF OF ALL MEN -  and the REASON Timothy is to engage in in such mediation between God and all men, is because Jesus is the one mediator, because of Jesus' mediation; and Jesus being the one mediator is tied by Paul to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, giving himself as a ransom.  What did he give himself as a ransom for?  Our salvation.  How is our salvation provided for? Through the New Covenant.  How did he establish the New Covenant?  Through his blood, which is the blood of the New Covenant.  

• Luke 22:20
• In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 

What did Jesus establish by his death and resurrection?  The New Covenant.

 

What exactly is Jesus the one mediator of?

He is the one mediator of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

Jesus is the One Mediator of the New Covenant.    No one else can be that mediator.

 

That does not mean that this encompasses all forms of mediation and thus excludes participation by anyone else in any other form of mediation, otherwise you could not pray for someone else, for praying for someone else is approaching God on their behalf which makes you a mediator.  

If you are not a mediator, then you better stop praying for others.   But then, if you did stop praying for others, you would be violating God's commands in scriptures to pray for others, to approach God on their behalf in prayer:  What a dilemma you created for yourself.

But there really is no such dilemma.

As Paul in 1 Timothy 2 says, we can approach God on behalf of others, mediate with God on behalf of others, BECAUSE Christ is the One Mediator.  Paul tells us it is BECAUSE of Christ being the One Mediator of the New Covenant that we are able to participate in acts of mediation for others, indeed for ALL MEN, coming before God on their behalf with entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgivings.

It is because Jesus is the One Mediator we also become mediators  to God on behalf of others.  

Jesus being the One Mediator does not exclude anyone else from being mediators on behalf of others before God.    Jesus being the One Mediator ENABLES us, MAKES IT POSSIBLE for us to be mediators on behalf of others before God.

 

This is scripture.

 

This is the word of the Lord.

 

It was through Mary's mediation, intercession to Jesus, who is fully God as well as fully man,  on behalf of those who had run out of wine and would suffer embarrassment for not having seen to the needs of their guests properly, that Jesus began his ministry.

 

This is scripture.

 

This is the word of the Lord.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is the word of the Lord indeed and it is astonishing how you embellish it and twist it.

If Jesus enables others to be mediators too then I'm surprised that you don't worship Peter and John in the same way that you worship Mary. You have twisted scripture to the point of praying to dead people. Of course, I can pray for you - that's exactly what intercession means. I can pray for you because that shows my dedication to the Lord and I can ask you to pray for me. I would never ask a dead person to pray for me though, whether it be Mary, John or my own dead grandmother.

I find it strange that the Bible's request that we all be mediators for each other has somehow been interpreted to include speaking to the deceased. The Bible also tells us that we are to be charitable to each other and love one another, do you also assume that includes people who have been dead for two thousand years? You are also putting Mary on equal footing with Jesus which is incredibly blasphemous and I will not stomach this any more. God makes it quite clear that we are not to try and communicate with the dead.

Frankly I'm not really going to indulge you in your heresies any longer. Say what you will.

Oakwood, I have given you a simple reading of the scripture you used in its proper context with attention paid to how words are used in scripture.  I have shown you where you are in error in your understanding and use of scripture.  

You proof texted a verse, stripping it of its context, to make it appear to say something it doesn't really say.

I corrected you.

All you have offered in return are insults and false accusations.

 

It is very, very simple.

You are a mediator if you pray for someone else, for you then have gone to God on behalf of another to ask something of God for them on their behalf.

If you pray for others, then your very actions and behavior stand against your claims that no one else can be a mediator between God and man in any way.

 

As far as praying to the deceased goes, have you not read Jesus' words regarding the righteous dead?

Do you disregard the words of Jesus and make them of no effect?

• Matthew 22:32
• "'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

 

Are you accusing Jesus of being wrong?   If so, all of your beliefs are undone.

 

According to Jesus,  the Saints in heaven are not dead.  They are living.

If we can ask the living on earth to pray for us, then we can ask the living in heaven to pray for us too.

 

If Jesus, Peter, James and John could interact with Moses and Eljah while on earth, Moses and Elijah who are living, for God is the God of the living, and they were obviously very much one of the righteous living who had already departed this earth,  then there can no prohibition against asking for the prayers of the living in heaven who behold the very face of God.

Otherwise they all sinned, and then Jesus could not be the spotless lamb, and then Jesus could not be our savior, and then all of your beliefs are undone.

 

What you find strange is clearly in scripture.   This would then mean you find scripture strange for it does not support your biased pov.    I understand this is strange for you.  But the real question is, are you going to accept what the scripture actually says, or are you going to reject the truth in scripture in favor of your own biased pov?

If you reject any truth in scripture, what does that say regarding acceptance or rejection of Jesus who is Truth Himself?

 

Please do not falsely accuse me or anyone else of worshiping Mary.

Please do not falsely accuse me or anyone else of putting Mary on equal footing as Jesus.

These are your own misguided misunderstanding driven by your own biased misguided pov.

 

Peter and John are held in very high esteem and their intercession is also asked for.

They are part of the communion of saints in heaven before the very throne of God.   Their prayers are powerful because they are not hindered by anything.

If asking them to pray for us is to be considered worship, then anyone asking you to pray for them  are worshiping YOU and you have been accepting their idolatry every time you accept a request from someone to pray for them.   You then have sinned greatly and have caused them also to sin.

That is, if your accusation of worshiping Saints against Catholics is correct.

Obviously, someone asking you to pray for them is not worshiping you by that act, and neither are you accepting worship by that act.  

Obviously if you ask someone to pray for you, you are not worshiping them.

This follows then in regards to asking the Saints to pray for us.  No one is worshiping them by asking them to pray for us.

 

Be careful about falsely accusing and judging others.  For if Catholics are worshiping Saints by asking them to pray for us, then you are guilty of the same every time you ask someone else to pray for you, and God will judge you accordingly:

Matthew 7:1

1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

 

Edited August 20, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[OakWood]

The Bible clearly shows Mary as only Jesus' mother, not compassionate,  not an intercessor, not His equal, she was a vessel as God uses human vessels for His purposes. She is made an idol of worship by the rcc . She was only blessed by the fact that Jesus was born to this human vessel, that is how she was blessed, the Bible does not call her Holy or mother of God.

 

Are you saying that God would choose someone for the Mother of the Son of God, God the Son, God made man, someone who was not compasionate?

How can anyone allege that Mary is not an intercessor when it is by her intercession Jesus began his ministry with his first miracle?  How can you deny the role Mary plaid which scriptures so clearly reveal?

 

John 2

1On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. 7Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” So they filled them up to the brim. 8And He said to them, “Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter.” So they took it to him. 9When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

      12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

 

John the beloved disciple to whom Jesus gave charge of Mary when Jesus was dying on the cross, for John to take her as his mother,  treats Mary with the utmost respect in this beginning of the ministry of Jesus.

Mary is the one to bring to Jesus' attention the need for wine.    She acts as an intercessor for those in need, even without their knowledge she is doing so.

Jesus responds with the utmost respect and doesn't merely ask her what this has to do with him, but specifically asks what does this have to do WITH US - thus including Mary.

Mary then turns  back to those in need and tells the servants to do whatever Jesus tells them to do.     This is the ongoing message of Mary, to do whatever Jesus tells us to do.

It was through Mary's intervention, through her intercession that Jesus begins his ministry and performed his first miracle.    It was through Mary that Jesus manifested his glory for the first time.   It was through Mary's intercession his disciples belielved in him.

Then John puts Mary at the head of the list of those who went with Jesus to Capernaum, giving her this position of honor and importance.

 

To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, scripture puts Mary at each of the major events of Jesus' life and ministry.   This is how important she is to christianity. This is how important she is to Jesus' ministry of redemption. And when Mary is introduced to us in the Gospel of Luke, the Angel calls her Kecharitomene.   This word is used only once in all of scriptures.   It is used to tell us who Mary is.

 

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:5

Notice the word 'one'. It's very simple.......

Nobody is saying that Mary is not important to Christianity, but so is Peter, John, Paul, John the Baptist, Moses and various other figures. The level of reverence attached to Mary is nothing short of idolatry.

 

 

Proof texting is indeed a dangerous practice.   Your use of the scripture here completely ignores the context of the words you wish to use, as  well as the fuller context of scripture on the subject of Christ's mediation, and so the real message is missed.

 

There is indeed one mediator between man and God.

What is the full scriptural context of this "one mediaton"  ?

• 1 Timothy 2 
•  5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

 

Notice the word  "for" at the beginning of the verse?    This means what follows is given as a reason for something else, as a justification for something else he just said.  What it is given as a reason for?

 

• A Call to Prayer
•   1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

 

So Paul tells Timothy to engage in the act of mediaton through entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgivings to God  ON BEHALF OF ALL MEN -  and the REASON Timothy is to engage in in such mediation between God and all men, is because Jesus is the one mediator, because of Jesus' mediation; and Jesus being the one mediator is tied by Paul to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, giving himself as a ransom.  What did he give himself as a ransom for?  Our salvation.  How is our salvation provided for? Through the New Covenant.  How did he establish the New Covenant?  Through his blood, which is the blood of the New Covenant.  

• Luke 22:20
• In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 

What did Jesus establish by his death and resurrection?  The New Covenant.

 

What exactly is Jesus the one mediator of?

He is the one mediator of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

Jesus is the One Mediator of the New Covenant.    No one else can be that mediator.

 

That does not mean that this encompasses all forms of mediation and thus excludes participation by anyone else in any other form of mediation, otherwise you could not pray for someone else, for praying for someone else is approaching God on their behalf which makes you a mediator.  

If you are not a mediator, then you better stop praying for others.   But then, if you did stop praying for others, you would be violating God's commands in scriptures to pray for others, to approach God on their behalf in prayer:  What a dilemma you created for yourself.

But there really is no such dilemma.

As Paul in 1 Timothy 2 says, we can approach God on behalf of others, mediate with God on behalf of others, BECAUSE Christ is the One Mediator.  Paul tells us it is BECAUSE of Christ being the One Mediator of the New Covenant that we are able to participate in acts of mediation for others, indeed for ALL MEN, coming before God on their behalf with entreaties, prayers, petitions and thanksgivings.

It is because Jesus is the One Mediator we also become mediators  to God on behalf of others.  

Jesus being the One Mediator does not exclude anyone else from being mediators on behalf of others before God.    Jesus being the One Mediator ENABLES us, MAKES IT POSSIBLE for us to be mediators on behalf of others before God.

 

This is scripture.

 

This is the word of the Lord.

 

It was through Mary's mediation, intercession to Jesus, who is fully God as well as fully man,  on behalf of those who had run out of wine and would suffer embarrassment for not having seen to the needs of their guests properly, that Jesus began his ministry.

 

This is scripture.

 

This is the word of the Lord.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is the word of the Lord indeed and it is astonishing how you embellish it and twist it.

If Jesus enables others to be mediators too then I'm surprised that you don't worship Peter and John in the same way that you worship Mary. You have twisted scripture to the point of praying to dead people. Of course, I can pray for you - that's exactly what intercession means. I can pray for you because that shows my dedication to the Lord and I can ask you to pray for me. I would never ask a dead person to pray for me though, whether it be Mary, John or my own dead grandmother.

I find it strange that the Bible's request that we all be mediators for each other has somehow been interpreted to include speaking to the deceased. The Bible also tells us that we are to be charitable to each other and love one another, do you also assume that includes people who have been dead for two thousand years? You are also putting Mary on equal footing with Jesus which is incredibly blasphemous and I will not stomach this any more. God makes it quite clear that we are not to try and communicate with the dead.

Frankly I'm not really going to indulge you in your heresies any longer. Say what you will.

Oakwood, I have given you a simple reading of the scripture you used in its proper context with attention paid to how words are used in scripture.

It is very, very simple.

You are a mediator if you pray for someone else, for you then have gone to God on behalf of another to ask something of God for them on their behalf.

If you pray for others, then your very actions and behavior stand against your claims that no one else can be a mediator between God and man in any way.

 

As far as praying to the deceased goes, have you not read Jesus' words regarding the righteous dead?

Do you disregard the words of Jesus and make them of no effect?

• Matthew 22:32
• "'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

 

So the Saints in heaven are not dead.  They are living.

If we can ask the living on earth to pray for us, then we can ask the living in heaven to pray for us to.

 

If Jesus, Peter, James and John could interact with Moses and Eljah while on earth, Moses and Elijah who are living for God is the God of the living, and they were obviously very much one of the righteous living who had already departed this earth,  then there can no prohibition against asking for the prayers of the living in heaven who behold the very face of God.

What you find strange is clearly in scripture.   This would then mean you find scripture strange for it does not support your biased pov.    I understand this is strange for you.  But the real question is, are you going to accept what the scripture actually says, or are you going to reject the truth in scripture in favor of your own biased pov?

If you reject any truth in scripture, what does that say regarding acceptance or rejection of Jesus who is Truth Himself?

 

Please do not falsely accuse me or anyone else of worshiping Mary.

Please do not falsely accuse me or anyone else of putting Mary on equal footing as Jesus.

These are your own misguided misunderstanding driven by your own biased misguided pov.

 

Peter and John are held in very high esteem and their intercession is also asked for.

They are part of the communion of saints in heaven before the very throne of God.   Their prayers are powerful because they are not hindered by anything.

If asking them to pray for us is to be considered worship, then anyone asking you to pray for them  are worshiping YOU and you have been accepting their idolatry every time you accept a request from someone to pray for them.   You then have sinned greatly and have caused them also to sin.

That is, if your accusation of worshiping Saints against Catholics is correct.

Obviously, someone asking you to pray for them is not worshiping you by that act, and neither are you accepting worship by that act.  

Obviously if you ask someone to pray for you, you are not worshiping them.

This follows then in regards to asking the Saints to pray for us.  No one is worshiping them by asking them to pray for us.

 

Be careful about falsely accusing and judging others.  For if Catholics are worshiping Saints by asking them to pray for us, then you are guilty of the same every time you ask someone else to pray for you, and God will judge you accordingly:

Matthew 7:1

1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

 

Pointing out someone's blasphemous errors in reading scripture is not falsely judging others. You are asking dead people to pray for you and trying to compare it to asking living people to do the same. YOU ARE CLEARLY FORBIDDEN BY SCRIPTURE FROM TRYING TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE DEAD.

You do not pray to Mary, or speak to Mary. Jesus died on the cross for our sins and not Mary. Mary did NOT rise from the dead. I'm surprised that you don't try to communicate with Lazarus - at least he had one up on Mary when it came to resurrection.

Have you ever thought that God may judge you accordingly?

Now I'm not really interested in anything more that you have to say on this subject. I suggest you read the Bible instead of trying to corrupt it.