The Third Temple

[WilliamL]

It seems that when wisdom or understanding is called for (being born again, seeing the AoD, the seven heads, etc.)  there is both a natural and a spiritual application.  I see the Abomination of Desolation affecting both Israel naturally and believers spiritually since they're on parallel tracks.  Israel is made desolate as it is forced to flee to the wilderness and believers are made desolate during the great tribulation.

And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.....So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:13-14,17

That shows the AoD's effect on both the natural and spiritual, as I see it.

Good points.

"...the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Ex. 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

"The rest of her children" are keeping both the Old Covenant, the Ten Commandments -- which include the 7th-day Sabbath -- and the New Covenant. That is, the "natural and the spiritual application," just as you say.

 

[Sonseeahray]

[quote] Your interpretation of 1 John 2:18 misses entirely the point that the false messiah who goes by many descriptions (not just the Greek for false messiah antichristos) is a personal individual with satanic indwelling and will come in the end time of the last days to mislead the world. 

1 John 2:18

(AV)

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Like I said previously - the Greek word "Antichristos" can be both singular and plural - it is up to the translator to choose which....

1 John 2:18 (NASB)
¹⁸  Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

The word Antichrists here should be plural in order to match the second half of the passage. It should read...

Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that antichrists (plural) are coming, even now many (plural) antichrists have appeared - from this we know that is the last hour.

He is saying to them that they are expecting the appearance of the Antichristos but they have already been here unawares. These were basically false Gnostic teachers who originated in the Church and were rejected by the Disciples and Apostles and so they went elsewhere.

No publisher will ever use the plural for Antichrist because it would too offensive to the popular belief system in vogue today. Too many changes like this and he would have different evangelical groups boycotting his publication. This of course would be financial suicide. So I guess we will have to live with the bad translation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3–4

(AV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:9

(AV)

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Here Paul is talking about the coming Judgment of God on the corrupt Jerusalem. First he says that the war between the Jews and the Romans would begin (Falling away - another bad translation - A number of other translations use the correct word "Rebellion" which fits the context much better.)  When the war began Cestius Gallus and the 12th legion as well as other auxiliaries totaling about 30-45,000 men attacked Jerusalem and drove the rebels into the temple - which was in itself a fortress.. The zealot leader Eleazar ben Simon took over the temple and held it for about 1200 days. He was the Man of Sin that Paul spoke about. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in 52AD. The conflict with  Cestius occurred in Cheshvan of 66AD - just  14 years later. It took 14 years for Paul's prophesy to come to pass. This has absolutely nothing to do with any "Antichrist." John uses the term Antichristos in his epistles which were written probably in the 80's - long after the fall of Jerusalem. So you also have a problem with an anachronism.

Matthew 24:24

(AV)

24 For there shall arise false Christs*, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

*

pseudochristos (which as you pointed out can be interpreted to be one)

Any promising leader who appeared to have the ability to free the Jews from Roman bondage was considered to be a candidate for the office of Messiah. So from Herod the great all through to Bar Kokhba there were a number of Messianic candidates. Non of them made the grade as we know.

Revelation 13:1–5

(AV)

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13 is all about the two persecutions of Rome on the Christians. The first is a reference to Nero Vs 1 through 9 who had so brutally murdered many Christians. It was he that had the deadly would – suicide by the blade. But the people did not believe that he was dead but had escaped into Parthia where he would one day return and retake his Kingdom. His persecution of the Christians 64-68 lasted about 3 ½ years. The rest of the chapter centers around the soon coming persecution of the Christians under Domitian.

Zechariah 11:17

(AV)

17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

It was Jesus who tended the flock of Israel. After the Crucifixion the corrupt leaders of Israel took over again and God here is pronouncing a curse upon them because of their evil deeds.

Daniel 9:27

(AV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 - (NIV) 27 He [God the Father] will confirm a covenant [Abrahamic] with many [Israel] for one seven [years]. In the middle of the seven (3 1/2 years) He [God] will put an end to [animal] sacrifice and offering [by the sacrifice of Jesus - once and for all]. And on a wing of the temple [Chamber of Hewn stones - hall where the Sanhedrin met] He [God] will set up an Abomination [the unjust trial and condemnation of Jesus] that causes desolation, [Destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem, and Israel] until the end that is decreed [death by crucifixion - the wrath of God] is poured out on him [Jesus - his suffering and death for the sins of the world].

Comments:

The “one seven” was the 70th week of Daniel. All of the other 69 weeks were a necessary historical prelude to set up the 70th week where God accomplished all that he intended to do.

The main thing that I have done above is to simply define who “He” and “Him” are. “He” is not “The Antichrist” as so many believe today; "He" is God the Father and "Him" is Jesus the Son. And it is not a new covenant made by the Antichrist that is being made here, but rather a confirmation of an old covenant that God made long ago with the Fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is indeed "The New Covenant," which came to pass on the very day of the crucifixion.

Galatians 3:17 (KJV)

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Romans 11:27 (KJV)

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

What greater abomination could there be in all history than for the Sanhedrin - sitting in their "wing" [chamber] of the Temple - to condemn the Lord of the universe to death just for the sake of ENVY. The chamber of hewn stone was built half outside of the Temple and half inside, which qualifies it to be called a “Wing.“ This was the ultimate abomination of the Jewish nation and it caused the complete desolation of the Temple of God, the city, and the nation itself - all that remained of Jerusalem in 73AD was the Fortress Antonia (according to eyewitnesses), which became the garrison of the 10th Roman legion for over 200 years. The Fortress Antonia is not the Temple Mount, which is a common error of our day. The real Temple mount was a tower with a 450 foot wall on its SE corner. It was totally destroyed just as Jesus said it would be.

Remember that it was God himself that choreographed , engineered, and directed the crucifixion every single inch of the way - he planned everything to the smallest detail. He was the one who set up the unjust trial of Jesus in order to bring his great promises and plan to pass.

Jesus’ trial was the last one held in the Chamber of Hewn stone. The earthquake on the day that Jesus was crucified wrecked it so badly that they had to move to other quarters.

Daniel 12:11–12

(AV)

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Josephus tells us that the daily sacrifice failed on Tammuz 17^th 70 AD while the city was still under the siege of Titus. Counting backwards from this date 1,290 days we find the origin day for Daniel's prophesy. It was Cheshvan 4^th 66AD. On this day the terrorists had taken over the Temple (AoD) and the armies of Cestius had surrounded the city of Jerusalem. These were the two events that Jesus told his followers to watch for. And when they would see these two events they were to flee the city – but that is another story. Counting 45 days after the daily sacrifice failed brings us to the end of the war with Rome. Josephus does not give us a specific date for the end of the war but Daniel's prophesy of the 45 days brings us to Elul 3^rd 70AD. This was the 1,335 day. That is from Cheshvan 4^th 66AD to Elul 3^rd 70 AD is 1,335 days – just like Daniel prophesied.

[Kan]

I have read your post, and I will study what you have put forward, because it rings true.

I don't know too much about how the AD is applied, because it is mentioned in conjunction with the apostasy of Israel in the days prior to the Babylonian captivity, and then Jesus picks up on it in Matthew - saying that the disciples would see a manifestation of it.

I used to think that the AD had something to do with the Roman army, but that does not seem to be the case, because it seems to be related to apostasy, which is a religious thing, not primarily civil or military. So could it be that when the leaders of Israel had totally rejected the ministry of the disciples that, they were the AD standing in the holy place? And that this condition removed the protection of God from Israel against Rome?

In regards to the temple or holy place, does that differ from the holy mountain? Which we read of in Daniel 11:45.

Lev. 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. 26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

The term abomination of desolation is a specific Hebraism that refers to idolatry being set up in the Lord's Temple. This took place historically in 168 BC when Antiochus Epiphanes did just that: he set up an idol in the Temple, after he had plundered it and driven out the priests and Levites. This was completely accurately foretold by the prophet Daniel:

Dan. 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. ... 13 ... How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the the transgression of desolation...

Dan. 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Therefore, when Jesus used this term in Matt. 24:15, his disciples knew of what kind of event he was referring: a false deity "standing in the Holy Place," that is, the site of the Temple's ancient sanctuary. That holy place was on Mount Moriah, aka the Temple Mount, to which Dan. 11:45 refers.

Thanks. Is not the Islamic mosque there now, on the Mount? 

[WilliamL]

 

...Therefore, when Jesus used this term in Matt. 24:15, his disciples knew of what kind of event he was referring: a false deity "standing in the Holy Place," that is, the site of the Temple's ancient sanctuary. That holy place was on Mount Moriah, aka the Temple Mount, to which Dan. 11:45 refers.

Thanks. Is not the Islamic mosque there now, on the Mount? 

Yup.

[BlindSeeker]

(edited and emphasis by BlindSeeker)

 ...when Jesus used this term in Matt. 24:15, his disciples knew of what kind of event he was referring: a false deity "standing in the Holy Place," that is, the site of the Temple's ancient sanctuary. That holy place was on Mount Moriah, aka the Temple Mount, to which Dan. 11:45 refers.

 Perhaps the most popular reason for many people so grossly misinterpreting the words of Jesus in quoted in Matthew 24 is because of their assumption that "His disciples knew" certain things which scripture actually proves to the contrary.

The whole discourse of Jesus begins with His answering three specific questions, but let’s look at the setting in which the questions were asked  -

Matthew 24:1 - And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, (1)Tell us, when shall these things be? and (2) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and (3) [what shall be the sign] of the end of the world?

Now everyone begins to interpret the Mount Olives discourse by interpreting Jesus’ answers based upon what they think the disciples where asking.

The first question is actually pretty straight forward, “When shall these things be” that “there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down?” Of course we all know from history that took place in 70 a.d., but the real problems in peoples’ exegesis of the Mount Olives discourse arise when people assume that the disciples actually knew about Jesus’ second coming and the end of the world.  

Yet when Jesus and the disciples left Jericho and headed to Jerusalem Jesus began to sow seeds of truth into their lives for the time when they would be able to understand His words.

Luke 18:31 - Then He took unto Him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For He shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and  33 And they shall scourge Him, and put Him to death: and the third day He shall rise again.  34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Not only did they not understand His words to them about His crucifixion, but even as they were just leaving  Jericho the mother of two of them came to Jesus with a very bold that is very revealing of their perspective of things about to take place.

Matthew 20:20 - Then came to Him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping Him, and desiring a certain thing of Him.  21 And He said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto Him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on Thy right hand, and the other on the left, in Thy kingdom. 22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto Him, We are able. 23 And He saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on My right hand, and on My left, is not Mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of My Father.

These disciples where not talking about sitting on Jesus’ right and left hand in the Kingdom of Heaven, they were thinking about His becoming king in Jerusalem and were boldly moving to secure their place under His rule as the soon coming king of Israel. Their boldness had provoked the others to indignation against them.

Matthew 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.

So Jesus in order to address their pride and focus upon their being “great” addressed them with what it truly meant to be great in the eyes of God.

Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto Him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.  26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many. 29 And as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude followed Him.

Now you would think that would have settle such pride and strife among the disciples, but even as late as right after the Passover meal and their partaking of the bread and cup with Jesus they were again focused upon themselves and their positions under Jesus, the soon to be new King of Israel…or so they thought.

Luke 22:19 - And He took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is My body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of Me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth Me is with Me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom He is betrayed! 23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing. 

The disciples were clues as to what Jesus had been taking about with the bread being His body to be broken and the cup being symbolic of His new testament secured by His blood. All that went right over their heads and straightway they began focusing on what was important to their own egos…

Luke 22:24 And [AGAIN] there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

So once again, as He had in Jericho, Jesus once again addressed what was important in the eyes of God concerning the greatness of a man.

Luke 22:25 - And He said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as He that serveth. 28  Ye are they which have continued with Me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom [just not one like you are thinking of], as My Father hath appointed unto Me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Even afterwards as they were about to get ready to go to the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus said unto them the following -

John 16:12 - I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

Even this whole discourse can only be properly interpreted under the understanding that Jesus was sowing seeds of truth into their lives for the time when they would be able to understand His words. For he continued to tell them He was going away,  and that was so contrary to what they thought was going to happen, especially after Jesus riding into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass and all the people shouting “Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord!”

John 16:16 - A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me, because I go to the Father. 17 Then said some of His disciples among themselves, What is this that He saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me: and, Because I go to the Father? 18 They said therefore, What is this that He saith, A little while? we cannot tell what He saith. 19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask Him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me? 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

Yet Jesus clearly explains to them that He telling them things for later when they will be able to understand, for at the moment He was speaking to them in proverbs.

John 16:23 - And in that day ye shall ask Me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in My name, He will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in My name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

And even though Jesus knows they don’t understand Him and that He is speaking to them in proverbs (so it makes sense to look for them in His words to them), the disciples pride still gets the best of them and they respond to Him such -

John 16:28 - I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. 29 His disciples said unto Him, Lo, now speakest Thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. 30 Now are we sure that Thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that Thou camest forth from God.

Amazing isn’t it? He just told them He was speaking to them in proverbs because they couldn’t understand and they tell Him “Lo, now speakest Thou plainly, and speakest no proverb, now are we sure…” I have to admit I too have been there more than once….

John 16:31 - Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?  32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to His own, and shall leave Me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

And of course Jesus was right, they didn’t know or understand. Perhaps that is most evident by the words of the two on the road to Emmaus.

Luke 24:13 - And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus Himself drew near, and went with them. 16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know Him. 17 And He said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? 18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art Thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? 19 And He said unto them, What things? And they said unto Him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and have crucified Him. 21 But we trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done. 22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; 23 And when they found not His body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that He was alive. 24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. 25 Then He said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory?

Now, are we really to believe that the disciples who knew nothing of Jesus’ death and resurrection or His heavenly Kingdom were able to ask Jesus about His second coming and the end of the world?

No, they were asking about His coming to power and the end of Roman rule over Israel. So it would be wise to be careful how one  exegesis passages of scriptures concerning Jesus answers to people who clearly did not have the presence of mind to ask the questions people assumed they were asking, or to say at any point prior to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon them that “the disciples knew” anything correctly.

 

[other one]

 

...Therefore, when Jesus used this term in Matt. 24:15, his disciples knew of what kind of event he was referring: a false deity "standing in the Holy Place," that is, the site of the Temple's ancient sanctuary. That holy place was on Mount Moriah, aka the Temple Mount, to which Dan. 11:45 refers.

Thanks. Is not the Islamic mosque there now, on the Mount? 

Yup.

I finished a book a couple or three weeks ago titled "Temple"  where author Robert Cornuke makes a very good case for the temple actually not being on what we know as the temple mount.     From his reading and visiting the archaeological people in Israel,  it looks like the temple mount area was where the Roman garrison was located and the temple was about 600 to a 1000 feet south west of that location within the old City of David.   Scripture and archaeological finds are putting the temple off of what we consider the temple mount.       It's a very interesting read.

[Last Daze]

Now, are we really to believe that the disciples who knew nothing of Jesus’ death and resurrection or His heavenly Kingdom were able to ask Jesus about His second coming and the end of the world?

No, they were asking about His coming to power and the end of Roman rule over Israel. So it would be wise to be careful how one  exegesis passages of scriptures concerning Jesus answers to people who clearly did not have the presence of mind to ask the questions people assumed they were asking, or to say at any point prior to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon them that “the disciples knew” anything correctly.

 

Even though the disciples may not have discerned what was going on, I don't see why that would have limited Jesus answer to what they understood.  Previous dialogue wasn't limited to what the disciples understood, as you pointed out.

[WilliamL]

(edited and emphasis by BlindSeeker)

 ...when Jesus used this term in Matt. 24:15, his disciples knew of what kind of event he was referring: a false deity "standing in the Holy Place," that is, the site of the Temple's ancient sanctuary. That holy place was on Mount Moriah, aka the Temple Mount, to which Dan. 11:45 refers.

 Perhaps the most popular reason for many people so grossly misinterpreting the words of Jesus in quoted in Matthew 24 is because of their assumption that "His disciples knew" certain things which scripture actually proves to the contrary.

[long spiel]

 

...Now, are we really to believe that the disciples who knew nothing of Jesus’ death and resurrection or His heavenly Kingdom were able to ask Jesus about His second coming and the end of the world?

No, they were asking about His coming to power and the end of Roman rule over Israel. So it would be wise to be careful how one  exegesis passages of scriptures concerning Jesus answers to people who clearly did not have the presence of mind to ask the questions people assumed they were asking, or to say at any point prior to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon them that “the disciples knew” anything correctly.

And here all I was talking about was the term "abomination of desolation," which term his disciples knew from the book of Daniel, and from their knowledge of the AD committed by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC. Did I mention anything about their understanding of anything else? No. So please don't imply that I did.

[BlindSeeker]

 Even though the disciples may not have discerned what was going on, I don't see why that would have limited Jesus answer to what they understood.  Previous dialogue wasn't limited to what the disciples understood, as you pointed out.

Hi Last Daze, I agree with you that the disciples’ failure to discern what was going on would not have limited Jesus’ answer in the least. I think that should have been discernable from my post as well since He was definitely sowing seeds of truth so that after the Holy Spirit had been given He would bring to remembrance the very words He had spoken earlier to them and give illumination to them.

My point was not Jesus’s prophetic words which He had spoken to them, but rather the true nature of their questions. For unless we properly understand the mindset from which their questions arose we run the risk of incorrectly understanding part or all of Jesus’ answer.

My point, though thoroughly presented to scripturally establish my point, was quite simple; the disciples did not have any awareness or comprehension of Jesus’s imminent death, or His resurrection, or His second coming nor were they in the least bit inquiring about the end of the world as believers nowadays recognize it.

[BlindSeeker]

(edited and emphasis by BlindSeeker)

 ...when Jesus used this term in Matt. 24:15, his disciples knew of what kind of event he was referring: a false deity "standing in the Holy Place," that is, the site of the Temple's ancient sanctuary. That holy place was on Mount Moriah, aka the Temple Mount, to which Dan. 11:45 refers.

 Perhaps the most popular reason for many people so grossly misinterpreting the words of Jesus in quoted in Matthew 24 is because of their assumption that "His disciples knew" certain things which scripture actually proves to the contrary.

[long spiel]

 

 

...Now, are we really to believe that the disciples who knew nothing of Jesus’ death and resurrection or His heavenly Kingdom were able to ask Jesus about His second coming and the end of the world?

No, they were asking about His coming to power and the end of Roman rule over Israel. So it would be wise to be careful how one  exegesis passages of scriptures concerning Jesus answers to people who clearly did not have the presence of mind to ask the questions people assumed they were asking, or to say at any point prior to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon them that “the disciples knew” anything correctly.

And here all I was talking about was the term "abomination of desolation," which term his disciples knew from the book of Daniel, and from their knowledge of the AD committed by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC. Did I mention anything about their understanding of anything else? No. So please don't imply that I did.

Brother WilliamL,

Sorry if you took offence as none was intended.

It is evident that all you were “talking about was the term ‘abomination of desolation,’” but I was talking about more than that. That’s what people do on forums and why they participate in them.  I was talking about how the disciples did not understand the discourse given them upon the Mount of Olives. Which of course your assertion that the “term ‘abomination of desolation’ which [was a] term his disciples knew from the book of Daniel” was indeed part of that discourse.

And while I would agree that sensible to assume they were well aware of the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes profaning the altar, a foundational part of my point was simply that based upon their track record it is equally reasonable to conclude that they did not understand the end to which Jesus’ reused the term. A point which is further substantiated by the fact at the very end of His discourse Jesus again tells the disciples He is going to be crucified and they still didn’t get it.

Matthew 26:1 - And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, He said unto His disciples,  2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

My point was not that you were foolishly making an implication of “their understanding of anything else,” but rather that “the most popular reason for many people so grossly misinterpreting the words of Jesus in quoted in Matthew 24 is because of their assumption that "His disciples knew" certain things which scripture actually proves to the contrary.”

Brother WilliamL, much of your presentations on Worthy and your prophecy webpages indicate that you are a studious man who faithfully endeavors to rightly divide the word of God and therefore it would be reasonable to assume you too have encountered people who have deduced things too hastily from the scriptures without a thorough examination of the subject. Therefore I would have thought you would have both appreciated my presentation and clearly understood my point, rather than reacting to it and insinuating it was nothing more than a “long spiel” of little significance.

I readily admit that I do tend to be thorough in my thought process and presentations, that’s just who and how I am. So if my posts are too long for you then perhaps it is best you skip over them. But in truth nowhere in my last post did I address you personally WilliamL. I assure you that if I have something to say specifically to you or about you that it will be clear. However, my only use of the word "you" in my last post was only a generalized reference to the reader, whomever they might be.  So perhaps you might want to reread both this post and my last one before you permit your heart to assign any wrongful intent to me or harbor ill feelings.

Peace.