People are basically good, right?

[enoob57]

3 minutes ago, Kan said:

Absolutely, but a child is innocent until he or she is aware of the issue at stake, and has made choices about it. One can only be guilty of sin with the knowledge of it. Sin can be committed in ignorance, but guilt does not apply, even though the consequences of sin come upon all who sin, regardless of their knowledge.

I know that there are arguments that sin is a condition which can be inherited with the guilt applied, but I disagree with that philosophy and don't want to go into it here.

1^st born people -we are sin- ... 2^nd born people we are the righteousness of Christ sealed in God Himself The Holy Spirit....

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Kan said:

Absolutely, but a child is innocent until he or she is aware of the issue at stake, and has made choices about it. One can only be guilty of sin with the knowledge of it. Sin can be committed in ignorance, but guilt does not apply, even though the consequences of sin come upon all who sin, regardless of their knowledge.

I know that there are arguments that sin is a condition which can be inherited with the guilt applied, but I disagree with that philosophy and don't want to go into it here.

My argument has nothing to with original sin.   A child may be spiritually innocent until they are able to know right from wrong and are able to make conscious moral choices, but their actsion are still evil and if allowed to continue into older childhood and adulthood, demonstrate that humans are basically evil by nature.  Even the Bible bears that out.

[Willa]

5 hours ago, Kan said:

If people were not behaving themselves under the strivings of the Holy Spirit upon all men, then the world today would be in the condition when God will no longer strive with men, and all kinds of evil will come to fruition. That time has not yet come, but we are seeing an increase in crimes by people who have given themselves over to be controlled by Satan.

 When God's Spirit is "striving with men" they often become more belligerent toward Christianity and hostile toward Christians.  I often consider this a good thing since it often happens in the months and years prior to conversion while God is calling them.  Many are called but few are chosen.

Paul in said Rom 7:18 WEB For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good."  Speaking of his flesh, his old man, or human nature.  I can attest to the fact that this is my old nature.  After I learned to walk in the Spirit and was taught how to recognize God's voice, I was shown how to perform the works born out of His love as I walked in the Spirit.  Only the Spirit of Christ dwelling in me is good.  I will have every reason to cast my crowns at His feet in Heaven.  There is nothing left for self righteousness to be based on because I know in my heart what my old self is without Jesus.  That old self is dying but still present, and I must die to it daily.  Only Christ in me is "basically good".

We are to let our lights shine so that they can be seen among men.  We are the the salt of the world.  It is through us that people see Jesus.  We are living epistles.  And the Holy Spirit works through our testimonies and God's Word to reach others.  When we took the Bible, the 10 commandments and our patriotic hymns and Christmas Carols out of our schools, we removed a huge influence on this generation even though they didn't know the meaning of the words.  Some are drawn to the warmth and peace. 

 Much of this generation learns their values on the streets now.  So we do find people living like animals, rioting and violent, and like sheep following community organizers to overthrow government and create chaos even at our political rallies and conventions.  What the world needs now is love, sweet love---demonstrated by Jesus' dying on the cross for our sins.

[Kan]

16 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

My argument has nothing to with original sin.   A child may be spiritually innocent until they are able to know right from wrong and are able to make conscious moral choices, but their actsion are still evil and if allowed to continue into older childhood and adulthood, demonstrate that humans are basically evil by nature.  Even the Bible bears that out.

For sure, and sorry if I mistook the direction of your post.

[Kan]

16 hours ago, Willa said:

 When God's Spirit is "striving with men" they often become more belligerent toward Christianity and hostile toward Christians.  I often consider this a good thing since it often happens in the months and years prior to conversion while God is calling them.  Many are called but few are chosen.

Paul in said Rom 7:18 WEB For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good."  Speaking of his flesh, his old man, or human nature.  I can attest to the fact that this is my old nature.  After I learned to walk in the Spirit and was taught how to recognize God's voice, I was shown how to perform the works born out of His love as I walked in the Spirit.  Only the Spirit of Christ dwelling in me is good.  I will have every reason to cast my crowns at His feet in Heaven.  There is nothing left for self righteousness to be based on because I know in my heart what my old self is without Jesus.  That old self is dying but still present, and I must die to it daily.  Only Christ in me is "basically good".

We are to let our lights shine so that they can be seen among men.  We are the the salt of the world.  It is through us that people see Jesus.  We are living epistles.  And the Holy Spirit works through our testimonies and God's Word to reach others.  When we took the Bible, the 10 commandments and our patriotic hymns and Christmas Carols out of our schools, we removed a huge influence on this generation even though they didn't know the meaning of the words.  Some are drawn to the warmth and peace. 

 Much of this generation learns their values on the streets now.  So we do find people living like animals, rioting and violent, and like sheep following community organizers to overthrow government and create chaos even at our political rallies and conventions.  What the world needs now is love, sweet love---demonstrated by Jesus' dying on the cross for our sins.

Yes, the strivings are resisted creating a battle in the heart. Thank God for such trouble, to keep our eyes upward.

Choosing to be in harmony with God, and living without any consideration for truth makes a vast difference in destiny, but it does not change the fact that God gives gifts of righteousness through humanity, goodness belongs to Jesus, it comes from Him and is freelt distributed to humanity, but it is not appreciated by the world. All good gifts come from the Father of lights in Whom there is no shadow of turning.

On the day of Judgment, it will not be contested whether a person is a sinner or not, but what did they did with the righteousness of God, through the grace He has given the world, and for the striving of the Holy Spirit to rebuild a right character and heart for every human being, through the merits of Christ's sacrifice.

[forGod1]

moral decency involves loving your neighbor as you love yourself.

[Guest Robert]

On 6/9/2016 at 1:02 AM, Kan said:

Yes, the strivings are resisted creating a battle in the heart. Thank God for such trouble, to keep our eyes upward.

Choosing to be in harmony with God, and living without any consideration for truth makes a vast difference in destiny, but it does not change the fact that God gives gifts of righteousness through humanity, goodness belongs to Jesus, it comes from Him and is freelt distributed to humanity, but it is not appreciated by the world. All good gifts come from the Father of lights in Whom there is no shadow of turning.

On the day of Judgment, it will not be contested whether a person is a sinner or not, but what did they did with the righteousness of God, through the grace He has given the world, and for the striving of the Holy Spirit to rebuild a right character and heart for every human being, through the merits of Christ's sacrifice.

One thing to consider though: if someone continually lives against what is taught in Scripture, does not show the fruit of the Spirit and demonstrates no righteousness from the Lord, have they accepted the Lord's gift? Or did they simply pay "lip-service" to salvation and continue to live as they always did?

Scripture is clear on the matter: before we can "do" anything with God's righteousness, we must first admit that we have sinned. And Scripture has stated:

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13-14, NASB, emphasis mine)

On the Day of Judgment, what is going to matter is whether the person  was able to admit they sinned and was willing to turn from their sin and turn to the Lord.  They either have the blood of Christ covering them or they do not.

 

[brakelite]

One of the most intuitive descriptions of the human condition I have read went along these lines...We are self replicating moral viruses who occasionally get things right.

Sin is a cancer, a fatal illness with which we are all infected. We were originally created in the image of God (Gen 1:27), and God is love. However, when man rebelled he lost that image, and from that time on we were born in the image of fallen Adam (Gen. 5:3). Unless were are born again and recreated in the image of He who made us (John 3:3,5; Rom. 8:29), we cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The cancer of sin must be destroyed. We cannot expect to be allowed access to heaven if our characters are corrupted by a virus that brings death to whomsoever it touches.  This is where sanctification comes in. The working of the Spirit in us to free us from sin, to recreate in us the image of Christ, to instill in us the principles of heaven, which are love for God, and love for our neighbor.

How do you know that the form of belief and faith you cling to is actually curing the disease and not just the symptoms? Is that which you cherish as ‘church’, faith or whatever simply providing anti-inflammatory solutions to the consequences of sin, or is it dealing with the root cause – a very much alive and perfectly well ‘self’.

Sin is a terminal disease for which there is only one sure remedy. This remedy must be taken daily, and in large doses. Sin is a rampant virulent poison that grows without restraint if given license, and destroys all whose paths it crosses. And the only remedy, the only cure, is death to self.

Anything else in the Christian life touches only the symptoms. The joy of fellowship, without death to self affects only that innate loneliness that comes from estrangement from God through sin. Any peace we may experience as a result of knowledge or even faith in the scriptures, without death to self, is merely a short-term appeasement to the conscience.

Death to self or the carnal nature or the flesh, must come before being born again. Death to self must come before baptism. Death to self must come before the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

How do we know that the faith/religion/Christianity we hold to is curing the disease? By the fruits that grow as a result of the characters we feed. If we are feeding the carnal nature, then the carnal nature is going to flourish and live, and the fruits of that nature will be manifest in sin, worldliness, and compromise.
If we are however putting to death the carnal nature through faith in the power of Christ, then we starve it. We refuse to feed that nature. We instead feed the spirit. And the fruit of the spirit will be found in holiness and righteousness expressed through love that is implanted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Mathew 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Throughout the NT Jesus likened the kingdom of heaven to a seed. We, like the seed, must die, be buried, and be raised up into a new life. Death is the only remedy to sin.

There is a further aspect to this. Throughout Revelation we are promised great things if we would but ‘overcome’. Jesus said to the Laodiceans that should we overcome, we will sit with Him on His throne, just as He overcame and sat down on His Father’s throne. So that strongly implies to me that we are to overcome in the same precise way that Jesus did. How did Jesus overcome?

John was invited to see who had the right to open the seals of the book. Who had the power and authority to reveal the future? Who was He?

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Ahhh! A Lion!!! A ferocious Lion who by great strength and power has prevailed!!! Is that what John saw???

6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain

A Lamb!!! Yes, a Lamb as it had been slain. How did Jesus overcome? Through self sacrifice!!! And that my friends is how we are to overcome. Not by strength or power or force of arms, but by surrender! Complete self sacrificial surrender to God and our fellow man.

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We overcome by loving our enemies.
We overcome by praying for those who persecute us.
We overcome by feeding the hungry.
We overcome by clothing the naked.
We overcome by visiting those in prison.

My favourite chapter in the entire OT is Isaiah 58. He tells it like it is. We overcome…

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
8 ¶ Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

All the above cannot be accomplished without sacrificing self.
Joh 15:5
And we cannot hope to overcome as Christ did except we take up our own cross and follow Him. We cannot hope to overcome and share in His victory over sin, the devil, and the world, until we die to self and surrender to Him.

Rom 12:1

This is how we gain eternal life. By so identifying ourselves with Christ’s death that we partake of the same.

Rom 6:1-7

Sin becomes anathema to us. The more we associate ourselves and integrate ourselves with the cross of Calvary, the more abhorrent sin becomes to us. Conversely, the more sacred and the more precious will the laws of God become, and the more joy we obtain in surrendered obedience to them.

Rom. 6:8-14.

We become instruments of righteousness by our self sacrificial surrendering to the grace and life that God will impart to us, and we become overcomers. This is the only way to eternal life. Only through partaking of Christ’s death, and assimilating His life, can we have any hope for heaven. This is the only solution to the virus which affects us all.

God Bless

[Sammaiel]

People, basically , are selfish.
Being selfish is not a bad thing, the problem is most are also irrational and lack self control. That is the combination that makes everything a mess.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Re: the basic goodness of people:

Romans 3

10as it is written,
            “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

      11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
            THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

      12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
            THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
            THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”