Submission

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Rom 5:12

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin,
NASB

Well in my opinion ( since a techneon field generator pulled me in [ enoob ] ),

Saying that Eve was confused rather than disobedient is akin to saying that she had justifiable cause for her actions ( eating and sharing the fruit ). 

All 3 were culpable in God's eyes and that's the point. God is JUST, and the final authority. 

God seems to think the sin was with Adam.....  

Brother, we thought of that same passage at the same time. 

 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Genesis 3:14-19

All 3 involved were punished.

[Esther4:14]

 

According to the law, there was an offering for unintentional sin (numbers15:27).  So, it is possible that there was some degree of unintention on the part of Eve in eating the apple.     It is possible that her action was not as defiant as it has been viewed and still be a sin.  The intention or unintention of the action does not change whether something is a sin or not, even in the case of murder, which is why Israel was to have towns of refuge for anyone who killed someone accidentally or without malice (numbers 35:6).  

However, I do think it is hard for us to gauge her degree of intention because she does admit to knowing she was not supposed to eat the apple.  Therefore, according to the law He gave His people, I would say this is a difficult case.  When Moses was around, he would personally bring difficult cases like this to be judged individually by God Himself (deuteronomy 1:17), which He has done in this case assigning judgement to Adam, Eve, and the serpent.  

In conclusion, it is possible that their intention was weighed into their judgement because sin committed unintentionally would still be considered sin, not innocenece because of unintention.  

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

 

 

According to the law, there was an offering for unintentional sin (numbers15:27).  So, it is possible that there was some degree of unintention on the part of Eve in eating the apple.     It is possible that her action was not as defiant as it has been viewed and still be a sin.  The intention or unintention of the action does not change whether something is a sin or not, even in the case of murder, which is why Israel was to have towns of refuge for anyone who killed someone accidentally or without malice (numbers 35:6).  

However, I do think it is hard for us to gauge her degree of intention because she does admit to knowing she was not supposed to eat the apple.  Therefore, according to the law He gave His people, I would say this is a difficult case.  When Moses was around, he would personally bring difficult cases like this to be judged individually by God Himself (deuteronomy 1:17), which He has done in this case assigning judgement to Adam, Eve, and the serpent.  

In conclusion, it is possible that their intention was weighed into their judgement because sin committed unintentionally would still be considered sin, not innocenece because of unintention.  

Apple ? What apple ?

[thereselittleflower]

 

On the topic of Eve saying they must not touch it ir they will die. 

The burden of proof is on the one who lays the claim.  On what authority do you claim God did not tell them not to touch it?  I see no reason not to believe Eve's testimony.  Convince me otherwise please.  Thank you.

by reading of the incident in Genesis....   show me where God told them not to touch it.....

Sam, I have nothing to show that God actually said not to touch it.  I do not need too.  I am only saying I believe Eve who testified that God said not to touch it. I have no reason to doubt her.  

What proof do you have she got it right?

All I see is conjecture on your part right now with nothing to back it up.  

 

Clarke's Commentary

Genesis 3:3

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Neither shall ye touch it - Did not the woman add this to what God had before spoken? Some of the Jewish writers, who are only serious on comparative trifles, state that as soon as the woman had asserted this, the serpent pushed her against the tree and said, "See, thou hast touched it, and art still alive; thou mayest therefore safely eat of the fruit, for surely thou shalt not die."

 

James Gray - Concise Bible Commentary

Read Satan’s inquiry of the woman in the Revised Version, and perceive how it differs from the words of the prohibition (Genesis 2:16). How does it prove Satan “a liar from the beginning,” and how does it impugn God’s wisdom and love? Do you think the woman made a mistake in parleying with Satan? And how does her language (Genesis 3:3) deflect from the truth? Does she also make God a harder master than He is, and thus has sin already entered her soul? 

 

 

Guzik Bible Commentary

b. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Eve’s knowledge of what she should not do is partially correct, but what she doesn’t seem to know makes her all the more vulnerable to deception.

 

i. Eve does not seem to know the name of this tree; she only calls it the tree in the midst of the garden, instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17).

 

ii. Eve misquoted God’s command to Adam. Her words, “you shall not eat it” and “lest you die” are close enough, but she added to the command and put words in God’s mouth when she said, “nor shall you touch it.” Of course, it was a good idea to completely avoid the temptation; no good could come from massaging the fruit you’re not supposed to eat. But it is a dangerous thing to teach the doctrines of man as if they are the commandments of God (Matthew 15:9).

 

iii. Clarke on nor shall you touch it: “Some Jewish writers ... state that as soon as the woman had asserted this, the serpent pushed her against the tree and said, ‘See, you have touched it, and are still alive; you may therefore safely eat of the fruit, for surely you shall not die.’”

 

c. God has said: Eve’s ignorance of exactly what God said was really Adam’s responsibility. He did a poor job of relating to his wife the word God gave him.

 

i. We can almost picture Adam telling Eve, “See that tree in the middle of the garden? Don’t touch it or God says we’ll die!” While this is better than saying nothing, what Adam didn’t explain made a vulnerable place where Satan could attack.

 

 

 

 

Keil and Delitzsch OT Commentary

 

Instead of turning away, the woman replied, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." She was aware of the prohibition, therefore, and fully understood its meaning; but she added, "neither shall ye touch it," and proved by this very exaggeration that it appeared too stringent even to her, and therefore that her love and confidence towards God were already beginning to waver. Here was the beginning of her fall: "for doubt is the father of sin, and skepsis the mother of all transgression; and in this father and this mother, all our present knowledge has a common origin with sin" (Ziegler). From doubt, the tempter advances to a direct denial of the truth of the divine threat, and to a malicious suspicion of the divine love (Genesis 3:4, Genesis 3:5). "Ye will by no means die" (לא is placed before the infinitive absolute, as in Psalm 49:8 and Amos 9:8; for the meaning is not, "he will not die;" but, ye will positively not die). 

 

 

 

Lange Commentary on the Holy Scriptures

 

.. to correct the serpent she would seem to make the prohibition still stronger by the addition: Neither shall ye touch it. And yet by this very addition does her first wavering disguise itself under the form of an overdoing obedience. The first failure is her not observing the point of the temptation, and the allowing herself to to be drawn into an argument with the tempter; the second, that she makes the prohibition stronger than it really is, and thus lets it appear that to her, too, “the prohibition seems too strict” (Keil); the third is, that she weakens the prohibition by reducing it to the lesser caution: lest ye die, thus making the motive to obedience to be predominantly the fear of death. Or simply thus: She begins herself to doubt, and to explain away the simple clear prohibition of God, instead of turning away from the author of the doubt. There is something, too, in the thought that the woman does not denote God as her Covenant-God. And yet many have regarded her first answer as a sign of steadfastness in the beginning.

 

You are the one who declares she got it wrong.  I declare there is no valid authority that says she got it wrong.  It cannot be known.  The opinions of men such as you present are of no value to me for it is written that many shall come in his name declaring that he is Christ and deceive many.  I wonder why you are so animent on proving yourself right.  Nevertheless you have not convinced me of anything except your desire to be right.  Have a good day!

 

gdemoss,  I have presented my position with evidence.     I see no evidence to back your position and I've been asking for it.    What Eve said is what is in question and to back your position up you need to present evidence OTHER than what Eve said otherwise you have a circular argument which then is logically invalid.        Do you have evidence to back up what she said?

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well in my opinion ( since a techneon field generator pulled me in [ enoob ] ),

Saying that Eve was confused rather than disobedient is akin to saying that she had justifiable cause for her actions ( eating and sharing the fruit ). 

All 3 were culpable in God's eyes and that's the point. God is JUST, and the final authority. 

I think you're misunderstanding me.  

She was not confused about the part of - "you shall not eat."

She was confused about the part of - "or touch it" which satan was able to use to weave his lie convincingly to her.

Our ignorance of what God has actually said is often our undoing.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Well in my opinion ( since a techneon field generator pulled me in [ enoob ] ),

Saying that Eve was confused rather than disobedient is akin to saying that she had justifiable cause for her actions ( eating and sharing the fruit ). 

All 3 were culpable in God's eyes and that's the point. God is JUST, and the final authority. 

I think you're misunderstanding me.  

She was not confused about the part of - "you shall not eat."

She was confused about the part of - "or touch it" which satan was able to use to weave his lie convincingly to her.

Our ignorance of what God has actually said is often our undoing.

it was enough that God decided to punish Eve ( at the time simply called "woman" ) for what she had done. If we exonerate her due to confusion then we question God's judgement and authority. 

As for " touching " it, I only see what is in scripture. I'd rather NOT speculate what went on in her mind.

[thereselittleflower]

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Genesis 3:14-19

All 3 involved were punished.

Thank you for that evidence that God specifically states he commanded Adam, and says nothing about commanding Eve.    

 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Genesis 3:14-19

All 3 involved were punished.

Thank you for that evidence that God specifically states he commanded Adam, and says nothing about commanding Eve.    

 

Yes, of course. That's why I underlined that part. The passage in Romans clearly states that as well. I'm not in any competition here.

[thereselittleflower]

Well in my opinion ( since a techneon field generator pulled me in [ enoob ] ),

Saying that Eve was confused rather than disobedient is akin to saying that she had justifiable cause for her actions ( eating and sharing the fruit ). 

All 3 were culpable in God's eyes and that's the point. God is JUST, and the final authority. 

I think you're misunderstanding me.  

She was not confused about the part of - "you shall not eat."

She was confused about the part of - "or touch it" which satan was able to use to weave his lie convincingly to her.

Our ignorance of what God has actually said is often our undoing.

it was enough that God decided to punish Eve ( at the time simply called "woman" ) for what she had done. If we exonerate her due to confusion then we question God's judgement and authority. 

We are not exonerating her by saying she was confused over what God commanded.   But it does make her less culpable than Adam, which is why it is Adam's sin that caused the human race to fall.

The bible does not say that we fell because of Eve's disobedience, but because of Adam's.    If Adam had refused to eat of the fruit, the human race would not have fallen.  It took two to fall, not one, and Adam's sin was the greater of the two.

 

As for " touching " it, I only see what is in scripture. I'd rather NOT speculate what went on in her mind.

I agree we can't go too far there, but it is important to helping us understand how we can contribute to giving room for satan to deceive us.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2015 by thereselittleflower