Pope: "Jesus' Cross was a Failure"

[*Zion*]

OtherOne, thank you for sharing your testimony.  No one could mistake it as anything other than that.  Thank you for having the boldness to declare what you have.  Glad the Father set you straight, brother.  Glad that He has done so for all of us.  

 

[other one]

 

Even the title of the thread is a lie.

How can it be a lie when it is a direct quote from Pope Francis? I have read the entire text, and he did stop with those very words.  Why don't you go and double-check?  Any genuine Gospel preacher would NEVER stop with such a phrase.  Had the Pope said "In the eyes of the world the Cross was a failure but in the eyes of God and of Christ it was a supreme victory" it would have been totally acceptable.  But he did not say that.  In fact I can quote you his very words that he was preaching Universalism DECEPTIVELY since we both know that according to Catholic teaching there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.  It is time to open your eyes to the truth and not try and defend a system which is actually opposed to the Gospel.

The only thing that's not acceptable here is this behavior of continually misquoting the Catholic Church and people within it it, taking their words out of context and making it appear the Catholic Church and Catholics have said something they never said  IN CONTEXT.

 

Nobody is attacking the Catholic Church, just the Pope. And for the record, a number of devout Catholics believe him to be a false pope too.

If you read Tom Horn's book "Exo-Vaticana"  you will find that there is a group of Catholics that believe this pope is the last and is setting up for the false prophet or is so himself.   According to several Catholic prophecies combined he is the last pope and very shortly the Vatican and those in it will be destroyed......   and the antichrist will arise to power.

You will be able to find people who believe anything.    That doesn't make it true.   People running after such tales is just as described in the bible 

2 Timothy 4:3

For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear.

 

There are officially recognized prophecies that are very vague and open to different interpretations that suggest there will be a time of tremendous persecution of the Church with many killed for their faith including the Pope  -  notably the 3rd Secret of Fatima.   There are those that are claimed to be prophecies that are not accepted to be genuine yet are promoted by sensationalists as such.

 

 

 

they let Tom and Cris document the Pope's resignation down to the very part of the month and publish it in a book at least a year before hand.....     And Tom will tell you that it wasn't something he got out of the Bible, but the very prophecies from your priests and popes.   So I would not just fluff him off like some kind of a nut.

 

 

Anyone can prophecy.  That doesn't mean the prophecy is from God.

Do you realize that just because a prophecy comes true, it doesn't mean it was from God?

 

 

 

 

do you understand that I don't believe that the Catholic Church in itself has anything to do with God and hasn't since June of 1963;   and was questionable for many generations prior to that......    though I have Catholic Friends that I consider personally born again Christians.    In my opinion you have many many people who are themselves believers being taught and Shepard by the devil himself.........       and that shows the power of the Holy Spirit in individual lives of people.

You are free to believe what you will, but I've spent literally thousands of hours within both sides of the war between Lucifer and the Father and am very familiar with both sides......     Lucky for me I started out on the wrong side and when the Father set me strait it was to my advantage it worked out that way.

I am worried for anyone who listens to what fallen angels say and spends so much time dealing with such things.   

I am very worried for you.

 

 

 

 

Even the title of the thread is a lie.

How can it be a lie when it is a direct quote from Pope Francis? I have read the entire text, and he did stop with those very words.  Why don't you go and double-check?  Any genuine Gospel preacher would NEVER stop with such a phrase.  Had the Pope said "In the eyes of the world the Cross was a failure but in the eyes of God and of Christ it was a supreme victory" it would have been totally acceptable.  But he did not say that.  In fact I can quote you his very words that he was preaching Universalism DECEPTIVELY since we both know that according to Catholic teaching there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.  It is time to open your eyes to the truth and not try and defend a system which is actually opposed to the Gospel.

The only thing that's not acceptable here is this behavior of continually misquoting the Catholic Church and people within it it, taking their words out of context and making it appear the Catholic Church and Catholics have said something they never said  IN CONTEXT.

 

Nobody is attacking the Catholic Church, just the Pope. And for the record, a number of devout Catholics believe him to be a false pope too.

If you read Tom Horn's book "Exo-Vaticana"  you will find that there is a group of Catholics that believe this pope is the last and is setting up for the false prophet or is so himself.   According to several Catholic prophecies combined he is the last pope and very shortly the Vatican and those in it will be destroyed......   and the antichrist will arise to power.

You will be able to find people who believe anything.    That doesn't make it true.   People running after such tales is just as described in the bible 

2 Timothy 4:3

For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear.

 

There are officially recognized prophecies that are very vague and open to different interpretations that suggest there will be a time of tremendous persecution of the Church with many killed for their faith including the Pope  -  notably the 3rd Secret of Fatima.   There are those that are claimed to be prophecies that are not accepted to be genuine yet are promoted by sensationalists as such.

 

 

 

they let Tom and Cris document the Pope's resignation down to the very part of the month and publish it in a book at least a year before hand.....     And Tom will tell you that it wasn't something he got out of the Bible, but the very prophecies from your priests and popes.   So I would not just fluff him off like some kind of a nut.

 

 

Anyone can prophecy.  That doesn't mean the prophecy is from God.

Do you realize that just because a prophecy comes true, it doesn't mean it was from God?

 

 

 

 

do you understand that I don't believe that the Catholic Church in itself has anything to do with God and hasn't since June of 1963;   and was questionable for many generations prior to that......    though I have Catholic Friends that I consider personally born again Christians.    In my opinion you have many many people who are themselves believers being taught and Shepard by the devil himself.........       and that shows the power of the Holy Spirit in individual lives of people.

You are free to believe what you will, but I've spent literally thousands of hours within both sides of the war between Lucifer and the Father and am very familiar with both sides......     Lucky for me I started out on the wrong side and when the Father set me strait it was to my advantage it worked out that way.

I am worried for anyone who listens to what fallen angels say and spends so much time dealing with such things.   

I am very worried for you.

 

 

 

Oh, you don't need to be worried about me......    I've looked the guy in the eye and been saved by the grace of God....    These days I just hang around here in case people come by and need some help getting away from the same problem.   I don't know you well enough to know if you have any dangers or not.....   especially since you should see that I consider many good Catholics as saved and born again...  so I would not even guess if you are in any danger or not unless you are part of the high levels of the Church.....   if so, you are probably.......   well i won't go there.

 

[other one]

I'd like to know what was June 1963?

https://archive.org/stream/WindsweptHouseAVaticanNovel/WindsweptHouse#page/n0/mode/2up

 

This is what is considered a Factual Novel......    it is completely true except for the names involved......    and if you are very familiar with history you can figure that out for yourself.....   I am familiar with the Author and believe him when he says it's all true.....    and several other people who were around him during his life attest to the same.       I am sure most Catholics who love thier church will disagree, but this book and a couple of others that Malachi wrote about the church will answer a lot of questions about what's going on across that part of the world.

I might add that Malachi was a part of his church all his life and loved it till the day he died,,,,,,,    but he was broken hearted as to what happened to it.

Edited September 29, 2015 by other one

[OldSchool2]

 

Even the title of the thread is a lie.

How can it be a lie when it is a direct quote from Pope Francis? I have read the entire text, and he did stop with those very words...

But Francis started with "humanly speaking," i.e., in only human terms, the Crucifixion can be seen as the abrupt termination of Christ's earthly ministry.

And according to the AP stylebook, to quote out of context is to misquote, so the headline is at least misleading.

No one is quoting out of context.  To leave the "human understanding" of Jesus' cross as a failure in the minds of people, particularly the minds of the unregenerate crowd is wrong.   As a Christian, I would have said, "in human terms and by human reasoning, the cross of Jesus might look like a failure but it was the greatest victory in human history.  It was Jesus' victory over sin, death, and hell through HIs work on the cross.  It was God's victory over evil, over the devil, over the wickedness of our world."   I would have stressed that Jesus' death on the cross was God the Father's way of bringing man back into fellowship with himself...

I would have said the same, or something similar, but both of us have a good command of the English language. As for Francis, his native language is Spanish; he also speaks Italian, Portuguese, French, German, Ukrainian and Piedmontese.

Apparently the Pope doesn't actually understand English and was "speaking" it from a phonetically prepared text; I think he would have done a better job finishing that sentence in Spanish, but he would have required a translator at the altar.

This doesn't have anything to do with a command of the English language.  It has to do with sloppy theology.

Even the title of the thread is a lie.

How can it be a lie when it is a direct quote from Pope Francis? I have read the entire text, and he did stop with those very words...

But Francis started with "humanly speaking," i.e., in only human terms, the Crucifixion can be seen as the abrupt termination of Christ's earthly ministry.

And according to the AP stylebook, to quote out of context is to misquote, so the headline is at least misleading.

No one is quoting out of context.  To leave the "human understanding" of Jesus' cross as a failure in the minds of people, particularly the minds of the unregenerate crowd is wrong.   As a Christian, I would have said, "in human terms and by human reasoning, the cross of Jesus might look like a failure but it was the greatest victory in human history.  It was Jesus' victory over sin, death, and hell through HIs work on the cross.  It was God's victory over evil, over the devil, over the wickedness of our world."   I would have stressed that Jesus' death on the cross was God the Father's way of bringing man back into fellowship with himself...

I would have said the same, or something similar, but both of us have a good command of the English language. As for Francis, his native language is Spanish; he also speaks Italian, Portuguese, French, German, Ukrainian and Piedmontese.

Apparently the Pope doesn't actually understand English and was "speaking" it from a phonetically prepared text; I think he would have done a better job finishing that sentence in Spanish, but he would have required a translator at the altar.

This doesn't have anything to do with a command of the English language.  It has to do with sloppy theology.

If you couldn't understand English, I wonder what your theology would look like on Worthy?

[ayin jade]

 

Even the title of the thread is a lie.

How can it be a lie when it is a direct quote from Pope Francis? I have read the entire text, and he did stop with those very words...

But Francis started with "humanly speaking," i.e., in only human terms, the Crucifixion can be seen as the abrupt termination of Christ's earthly ministry.

And according to the AP stylebook, to quote out of context is to misquote, so the headline is at least misleading.

No one is quoting out of context.  To leave the "human understanding" of Jesus' cross as a failure in the minds of people, particularly the minds of the unregenerate crowd is wrong.   As a Christian, I would have said, "in human terms and by human reasoning, the cross of Jesus might look like a failure but it was the greatest victory in human history.  It was Jesus' victory over sin, death, and hell through HIs work on the cross.  It was God's victory over evil, over the devil, over the wickedness of our world."   I would have stressed that Jesus' death on the cross was God the Father's way of bringing man back into fellowship with himself...

I would have said the same, or something similar, but both of us have a good command of the English language. As for Francis, his native language is Spanish; he also speaks Italian, Portuguese, French, German, Ukrainian and Piedmontese.

Apparently the Pope doesn't actually understand English and was "speaking" it from a phonetically prepared text; I think he would have done a better job finishing that sentence in Spanish, but he would have required a translator at the altar.

This doesn't have anything to do with a command of the English language.  It has to do with sloppy theology.

 

Even the title of the thread is a lie.

How can it be a lie when it is a direct quote from Pope Francis? I have read the entire text, and he did stop with those very words...

But Francis started with "humanly speaking," i.e., in only human terms, the Crucifixion can be seen as the abrupt termination of Christ's earthly ministry.

And according to the AP stylebook, to quote out of context is to misquote, so the headline is at least misleading.

No one is quoting out of context.  To leave the "human understanding" of Jesus' cross as a failure in the minds of people, particularly the minds of the unregenerate crowd is wrong.   As a Christian, I would have said, "in human terms and by human reasoning, the cross of Jesus might look like a failure but it was the greatest victory in human history.  It was Jesus' victory over sin, death, and hell through HIs work on the cross.  It was God's victory over evil, over the devil, over the wickedness of our world."   I would have stressed that Jesus' death on the cross was God the Father's way of bringing man back into fellowship with himself...

I would have said the same, or something similar, but both of us have a good command of the English language. As for Francis, his native language is Spanish; he also speaks Italian, Portuguese, French, German, Ukrainian and Piedmontese.

Apparently the Pope doesn't actually understand English and was "speaking" it from a phonetically prepared text; I think he would have done a better job finishing that sentence in Spanish, but he would have required a translator at the altar.

This doesn't have anything to do with a command of the English language.  It has to do with sloppy theology.

If you couldn't understand English, I wonder what your theology would look like on Worthy?

Plenty of folks do not have english as their first language but do not spew sloppy theology.

[Ezra]

Plenty of folks do not have english as their first language but do not spew sloppy theology.

The original homily was in Spanish (the Pope's mother tongue) which was then translated in to English (presumably by a competent translator).  The real issue is why is every lame excuse presented to exonerate someone who is supposed to be a Christian spiritual leader? He either speaks God's truths or he speaks Satan's lies.  There is no middle ground in the spiritual battle. And this standard applies to all of us.  We either present God's truth or our own vain imaginations.  And if we are ignorant of what the Word says, we remain silent.

[thereselittleflower]

I'd like to know what was June 1963?

https://archive.org/stream/WindsweptHouseAVaticanNovel/WindsweptHouse#page/n0/mode/2up

 

This is what is considered a Factual Novel......    it is completely true except for the names involved......    and if you are very familiar with history you can figure that out for yourself.....   I am familiar with the Author and believe him when he says it's all true.....    and several other people who were around him during his life attest to the same.       I am sure most Catholics who love thier church will disagree, but this book and a couple of others that Malachi wrote about the church will answer a lot of questions about what's going on across that part of the world.

I might add that Malachi was a part of his church all his life and loved it till the day he died,,,,,,,    but he was broken hearted as to what happened to it.

 

That doesn't mean that what he wrote was true and not distorted intentionally or unintentionally, that he didn't suffer from some type of delusion.

I don't have any reason to believe anything other than is reported here:

Back in the 1970s, when possession and exorcism were the cinematic and fictional flavor of the era -- one that historian Martin Marty appropriately called “the silly season” -- it fell to my lot to conduct a pre-publication review of Malachi Martin’s sensational book Hostage to the Devil. I was allied in this with an internationally celebrated clinical psychologist. Working independently, our conclusion was the same: Martin’s five “cases” were fabrications of an inventive but disturbed mind, lacking all psychological, historical, theological and pastoral credibility.

Some time later, I interviewed Malachi Martin on television. A former priest, Martin had left the Jesuit order under cloudy conditions, to say the least. (The sordid details were described in Robert Blair Kaiser’s agonized 2002 memoir, Clerical Error: A True Story.) In person, I found Martin to be a clever, charming, engaging Irish rogue who evaded every effort to document the instances of possession he so graphically described. In the end, my earlier suspicion that Martin was a deeply disturbed individual was strongly reinforced.

 

..Not surprisingly, Martin went on to write several novels as well as pseudo-histories such as The Jesuits and The Final Conclave. And it must be admitted that Martin had a gift for writing as he did for gab. But as a theologian and pastoral minister, Martin was a fraud.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1394702/posts

 

[ayin jade]

I'd like to know what was June 1963?

https://archive.org/stream/WindsweptHouseAVaticanNovel/WindsweptHouse#page/n0/mode/2up

 

This is what is considered a Factual Novel......    it is completely true except for the names involved......    and if you are very familiar with history you can figure that out for yourself.....   I am familiar with the Author and believe him when he says it's all true.....    and several other people who were around him during his life attest to the same.       I am sure most Catholics who love thier church will disagree, but this book and a couple of others that Malachi wrote about the church will answer a lot of questions about what's going on across that part of the world.

I might add that Malachi was a part of his church all his life and loved it till the day he died,,,,,,,    but he was broken hearted as to what happened to it.

 

That doesn't mean that what he wrote was true and not distorted intentionally or unintentionally, that he didn't suffer from some type of delusion.

I don't have any reason to believe anything other than is reported here:

Back in the 1970s, when possession and exorcism were the cinematic and fictional flavor of the era -- one that historian Martin Marty appropriately called “the silly season” -- it fell to my lot to conduct a pre-publication review of Malachi Martin’s sensational book Hostage to the Devil. I was allied in this with an internationally celebrated clinical psychologist. Working independently, our conclusion was the same: Martin’s five “cases” were fabrications of an inventive but disturbed mind, lacking all psychological, historical, theological and pastoral credibility.

Some time later, I interviewed Malachi Martin on television. A former priest, Martin had left the Jesuit order under cloudy conditions, to say the least. (The sordid details were described in Robert Blair Kaiser’s agonized 2002 memoir, Clerical Error: A True Story.) In person, I found Martin to be a clever, charming, engaging Irish rogue who evaded every effort to document the instances of possession he so graphically described. In the end, my earlier suspicion that Martin was a deeply disturbed individual was strongly reinforced.

 

..Not surprisingly, Martin went on to write several novels as well as pseudo-histories such as The Jesuits and The Final Conclave. And it must be admitted that Martin had a gift for writing as he did for gab. But as a theologian and pastoral minister, Martin was a fraud.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1394702/posts

 

You chastised me for what you viewed as unacceptable sources, yet you use this one? This is quite out there. It seems you only accept resources that match your viewpoints. 

[thereselittleflower]

I'd like to know what was June 1963?

https://archive.org/stream/WindsweptHouseAVaticanNovel/WindsweptHouse#page/n0/mode/2up

 

This is what is considered a Factual Novel......    it is completely true except for the names involved......    and if you are very familiar with history you can figure that out for yourself.....   I am familiar with the Author and believe him when he says it's all true.....    and several other people who were around him during his life attest to the same.       I am sure most Catholics who love thier church will disagree, but this book and a couple of others that Malachi wrote about the church will answer a lot of questions about what's going on across that part of the world.

I might add that Malachi was a part of his church all his life and loved it till the day he died,,,,,,,    but he was broken hearted as to what happened to it.

 

That doesn't mean that what he wrote was true and not distorted intentionally or unintentionally, that he didn't suffer from some type of delusion.

I don't have any reason to believe anything other than is reported here:

Back in the 1970s, when possession and exorcism were the cinematic and fictional flavor of the era -- one that historian Martin Marty appropriately called “the silly season” -- it fell to my lot to conduct a pre-publication review of Malachi Martin’s sensational book Hostage to the Devil. I was allied in this with an internationally celebrated clinical psychologist. Working independently, our conclusion was the same: Martin’s five “cases” were fabrications of an inventive but disturbed mind, lacking all psychological, historical, theological and pastoral credibility.

Some time later, I interviewed Malachi Martin on television. A former priest, Martin had left the Jesuit order under cloudy conditions, to say the least. (The sordid details were described in Robert Blair Kaiser’s agonized 2002 memoir, Clerical Error: A True Story.) In person, I found Martin to be a clever, charming, engaging Irish rogue who evaded every effort to document the instances of possession he so graphically described. In the end, my earlier suspicion that Martin was a deeply disturbed individual was strongly reinforced.

 

..Not surprisingly, Martin went on to write several novels as well as pseudo-histories such as The Jesuits and The Final Conclave. And it must be admitted that Martin had a gift for writing as he did for gab. But as a theologian and pastoral minister, Martin was a fraud.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1394702/posts

 

You chastised me for what you viewed as unacceptable sources, yet you use this one? This is quite out there. It seems you only accept resources that match your viewpoints. 

This is someone's first hand experience with Malachi Martin.      

He is not alone:

In the past two decades, I've interviewed at least 20 Jesuits and spent time with about that many others. They ranged from Horace McKenna, who worked among the poor of southern Maryland and in the streets of Washington, to Daniel Berrigan, the plowshare hammerer. I don't recall one Jesuit who fits the bizarre antipope image that Martin concocts. They had opinions and bents, but none that were close to disobeying the Ignatian oath of loyalty to the pope. I have kept up with America magazine, the literate Jesuit weekly, and I have seen no editorials or articles from the war zone that Martin keeps insisting is out there.

The only war in Martin's book is the one he wages on facts. America magazine recently listed a number of errors. Several others are obvious. Martin says that in 1977, Ernesto Cardenal, the Nicaraguan priest, came to Washington to speak at a program organized "under the direction of Orlando Letelier, who, researchers have concluded, was a Cuban agent." No reliable news organization ever reported Letelier's being a Cuban agent. If the Chilean diplomat directed the 1977 program, it was an event worthy of miraculous status because he was murdered in 1976.

In the offices of Linden Press, Martin was apparently as powerful a caster of spells as Rasputin. The first line of the book jacket claims that the author "has established a record of accuracy so unique that it has been called 'uncanny.' "

Antireligious tirades are often traceable to an incident in the author's life. Knuckle-rapping nuns in parochial schools have long been inspirers of books and plays that let authors settle unholy scores against the church. Martin appears to have no nuns in his psyche, only Jesuits, though he keeps his torments private. His ventings against revered priests like Teilhard de Chardin -- there was "an arrogance in his attitude" -- and laymen like Jacques Maritain -- his "theology of history" was "built on Marxist philosophy" -- put Martin over the edge. He isn't expressing opinions but is mounting a crusade that few take seriously. It is known that a small minority of Jesuits are grumbling about their order's leanings. What 26,000-member organization doesn't have its reactionaries?

Martin's delusion is that, because a few progressive Jesuits think the current pope has as many strengths and weaknesses as other mortals, this is "war." Most Jesuits, in fact, stay well clear of papal politics. They are too busy with the rare and necessary work of keeping the faith and sharing the peace. They are everywhere, from their work in schools to prisons -- where many are being held because of their faith. One or two have a new, though blessedly temporary, ministry: defending the order's honor from addled cranks like Martin. The reviewer is a syndicated columnist for The Washington Post Writers Group.

http://prop1.org/protest/1987/870327cw.0166.plowshares.activists.html

 

People are drawn to sensationalism, and sensationalism about the Catholic Church is bait few seem to be able to resist.

 

 

 

 

[hmbld]

http://www.westernjournalism.com/a-new-gospel-from-a-modern-pope-preaching-a-counterfeit-approach-to-true-salvation/