Where was Eden - Was it actually in Israel?

[O'Dannyboy]

I read this passage and remembered this thread title and thought you folks might be interested in it.

Exodus 3:8

[eprom]

I read this passage and remembered this thread title and thought you folks might be interested in it. Exodus 3:8  I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey to the place of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite. I am not sure if Eden was the land of "milk and honey" but I thought I would throw it out there.

This is a very relevant verse O'Dannyboy, as it is repeated over and over again in: Exo 13:5, Exo 33:3, Lev 20:24, Num 13:27, Num 14:8, Num 16:13, Deu 6:3, Deu 11:9, Deu 26:9, Deu 26:15, Deu 27:3, Deu 31:20, Josh 5:6, Jer 11:5, Jer 33:22, Eze 20:6 .

This is the land where the Israelites would be fed by God Himself, and the food is God

[Botz]

Hello Eprom.

I have been folowing this interesting study that has opened my eyes to some new and relevant details and certainly got me thinking about others..I also like the spirit in which you proffer your findings embracing the "fires of testing" and that you don't take offence easily...that speaks volumes.

Proverbs 15:1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

I think the reference to Manna is somewhat tenuous because G-d sustained them outside of the 'Land of Milk and Honey'...it seems to speak more of G-ds grace and mercy in spite of their stubborness..much in the same manner that G-d expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and yet provided clothes for them to wear.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

It is also significant that when the Children of Israel entered the Promised land and partook of its victuals the miraculous supply of Heavens provision ceased.

Joshua 5:12 The manna ceased on the next day, after they had eaten of the produce of the land; neither had the children of Yisra'el manna any more; but they ate of the fruit of the land of Kena`an that year.

I think the concept that Danny mentions about the garden of Eden being like the Promised Land in that they both flow with Milk and Honey...in other words 'every good thing' is worth the mention. I have often thought that the garden was a supernaturally enclosed piece of real estate that might have broard geographic co-ordinates but can never again be located in this life. That Israel is a type...I can buy into that....as is the Kingdom of G-d and ultimately the Promised Land of our ressurection.

Somehow in the design of G-d ...one man falls from Grace in a Garden and G-d in His great Mercy and Lovingkindness uses this and raises many sons to inherit an Eternal Kingdom...It is an profound concept.

I tried your site but found it hard to navigate.

Anyway I am all ears...please continue.

Botz.

[eprom]

There are other issues relating to Soteriology, Pneumatology, and Eschatology, but you specifically asked me about hermeneutics.

Ok, I'll bite. How does this affect those issues then?

- On Pneumatology

There are many metaphors in the Bible that provide helpful descriptions of the Holy Spirit, like: The breadth of God, the wind, or the dove we see as we read about Jesus being baptized. The most pervasive metaphor throughout scripture, however, is "Water" or "Living Water". Jesus said, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, From within him will flow rivers of living water. Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:37-39).

Water finds an incredibly prominent role through the pages of scripture, with references of water, wells, springs and rivers being mentioned hundreds of times. Without delay, we see this prominence as water is immediately brought up in the first few verses of the Bible. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water" (Genesis 1:1, 2). Notice here how the Spirit of God is differentiated from the "watery deep", or salt water oceans. This is an important principle of scripture, for the Holly Spirit is only ever associated with, clean, pure and moving waters. Dirty, stagnant, and salty waters mentioned in scripture are a portrait of sin!

Where there is sin, death and despair, God applies the living water, the cleansing and renewal agent of the Holy Spirit. We see this principle everywhere throughout scripture: After man's fall - the earth is deluged (Genesis 6-8), When the Israelites were dieing in the desert - Moses made water came out of a rock (Numbers 20), Before the Israelites could enter the Promised Land - they had to pass through the waters of the Jordan River (Joshua 3), Before a Priest could participate in the sacrificial system - they had to be washed in water (Leviticus 8:6), When Elijah humiliates the four hundred & fifty prophets of Baal, he poured out water on the alter of God (1 Kings 18), When Elisha asked for double Elisha's spirit, they walked through the waters together (2Kings 2). From the washing of animals about to be sacrificed, to the ceremonial cleansing of diseased people, water can be seen running throughout the pages of scripture.

Not only is water notably used throughout scripture for cleansing, restoration, and empowerment, the concept of springs or fountains of water welling up to satisfy the thirsty, supply us with an essential picture of the work and character of God. God is called "the fountain of life" in Psalms 36:9, Jeremiah 17:13, and He even calls himself the fountain of life in Jeremiah 2:11. The certain promise of fountains of water welling up in the desert to bless the people of Israel if they would only turn back to Him, are made time after time in: (Isaiah 41:19, Isaiah 43:20, Isaiah 44:3, Isaiah 49:10, Isaiah 58:11) And now, this very image of water welling up into the life of a believer is made in: (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, John 1:26, John 7:37, Acts 11:15, Revelation 21:6) "But whoever drinks some of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life" (John 4:14).

Moving back to our river in Eden, it seems abundantly clear that this river was far more than just your average river. It may have indeed been a physical river, but Eden's river was a type of the Holy Spirit, breathing life into the whole region surrounding the orchard with the tree of life. This type sees its antitype fulfilled in the New Jerusalem described in the book of Revelation. Here we see two trees of life on ether side of the river, rather than a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good & evil. "Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, water as clear as crystal pouring out from the throne of God and of the Lamb, flowing down the middle of the city's main street. On each side of the river is the tree of life producing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month of the year. Its leaves are for the healing of the nations" (Revelation 22:1, 2).

This fulfilled type of Eden's river in the New Jerusalem is prophesied in the Old Testament. We see a glimpse of this future "river of life" in Zechariah 14:8, but we find some real insight into the nature and purpose of this river in Ezekiel 47. In a vision, Ezekiel saw water from under the threshold of the temple, pouring out the south side and flowing toward the east (Ezekiel 47:1). This is the very same direction our river in Eden flows in the Genesis account. "The Lord God planted an orchard in the east, in Eden . . . Now a river flows from Eden to water the orchard" (Genesis 2:8, 10). Here we can imagine a region called Eden with the orchard planted in the eastern side of the region, and the river flowing from the west into the orchard in the east.

Later in the vision, Ezekiel sees trees on ether side of the river that marry the Genesis account together with the Revelation account. "When I had returned, on the banks of the river, on both sides, I saw a vast number of trees . . . On both sides of the river's banks, every kind of tree will grow for food. Their leaves will not wither nor will their fruit fail, but they will bear fruit every month, because their water source flows from the sanctuary, Their fruit will be for food and their leaves for healing." (Ezekiel 47:7, 12) Ezekiel pictures an orchard with many trees like the one we see in Genesis 2:9, and he also describes a monthly harvest and the fact that the leaves were for the healing as we see in Revelation 22:2, effectively tying the type together with the anti-type.

The river Ezekiel sees flowing from the temple heads eastward and when it hits the Dead Sea, the waters of this sea that epitomize death, explode with life. "These waters go out toward the eastern region and flow down into the Arabah; when they enter the sea, where the sea is stagnant, the waters become fresh. Every living creature which swarms where the river flows will live; there will be many fish, for these waters flow there. It will become fresh and everything will live where the river flows" (Ezekiel 47:8, 9). The vertical descent of this river is astonishing, from the top of Mount Moriah at about 2400 ft above sea level, down to the Dead Sea, the lowest elevation on the face of the earth at about 1400 ft below sea level. This is almost double the vertical drop of the highest water falls in the world, and gives us an image of the Holy Spirit being sent down from heaven to the nations - as salt water represents sin & death, and the sea is a figurative term in the Bible for the nations.

The waters of the Dead Sea couldn't hold any more salt than they do. They're absolutely saturated with about 1/3 of the waters content containing salt. This makes the water so heavy that even small waves hit the side of boats like hammers, and its density forces bobbing swimmers who attempt to dive down under the water back to the surface. Despite the high saline content of the Dead Sea, metal objects which you would expect to corrode quickly in a brackish environment like this, never seem to rust because there's absolutely no oxygen in the water. Fish that are swept down from the Jordon River die without delay as they enter into this sea, and there's a continual commotion of birds flying down from the sky to feast on their flesh as their dead bodies rise to the surface. The fish are people and the birds are, "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens" (Ephesians 6:12), and as we enter into the realm of sin, we die spiritually and become helpless victims to the forces of evil. If it were not for the river of life, this drama of death and enslavement to Satan scheme would play out forever.

Every one of these rivers listed here in Genesis chapter 2 would be the ultimate destiny of the exile and punishment of the Hebrew people as a result of their idolatry and unbelief. They were slaves beside the river Gihon before the Exodus, they would walk beside the waters of Pishon during their wondering in the wilderness, the 10 northern tribes were taken captive to the banks of the Tigris River during the Assyrian invasion, and Southern Israel was carried away to the shores of the Euphrates during the Babylonian captivity. These rivers had enormous spiritual implication, as though God was reaching out to them through His Spirit, nourishing and sustaining His people during their greatest times of tribulation. For these waters of encouragement emanated from their land of promise, and would restore a remnant to return back home.

So the River in Eden was type of the Holy Spirit, more fully expressed in Ezekiel 47, and seeing its

[traveller]

I too am very much enjoying this thread and the way it is being handled.

eprom, I have recently been drawn to the fact of some items. or symbols, in the OT that are recurring. Such as water, trees, and the stones. You are causing my interest in these things to be piqued once again.

Thank you for this topic.

[eprom]

Somehow in the design of G-d ...one man falls from Grace in a Garden and G-d in His great Mercy and Lovingkindness uses this and raises many sons to inherit an Eternal Kingdom...It is an profound concept.

I know! We're going to be wondering about this one forever

I tried your site but found it hard to navigate.

You are not the first to mention this - we will try and improve this in the next few days

Blessings

[RustyAngeL]

I heard somewhere, can't remember where that Eden was what is now called Bagdad. Has anyone else heard that?

[tillmother]

YES I HAVE HEARD THE SAME THING RUSTY ANGEL. ACTUALLY ALOT OF THINGS HAPPENED IN IRAQ FROM THE BIBLE.

[eprom]

I too am very much enjoying this thread and the way it is being handled. eprom, I have recently been drawn to the fact of some items. or symbols, in the OT that are recurring. Such as water, trees, and the stones. You are causing my interest in these things to be piqued once again.

That

[irishcowboy]

Rusty Angel and Tillmother,

that is what the Bible tells us, by looking at a map and looking at description of where Eden was, you would be very close to it. as far as where it stands now, only God knows how we can get there, and well, the maps do not show anything that has to do with Eden even close to Jerusalem other then the land is neighbors of Iraq.