Sound mind/discipline

[Your closest friendnt]

I read many interesting thoughts about and I don't want to hide that I have been bless by developing the need to really look into this matter. 

I am going to offer my opinion by looking strictly in to contextual facts. 

I will aplly a test to show that Timothy or any one of us could be both bold and timid at times, and may be discourage, and that I think is something that Timotheos was going through for Paul to write this instruction.

If and when Timotheos was in the company of a younger group, willing to listen what He had to say, the young Timothy Whould be empower and feel strong and encourage, and felling that he want's to continiun engaging with this group, looking forwards to meet them again.

But the whole picture would be totally deferent, when he must have found himself as a leader. Challenging the understanding, the opinion and guidance  of the elders who had dominated this field of leadership for generations, because Timothy found himself as a foreigner and as a young adult in a coulture that depented in the wisdom of the elders. Of course he would be oppose by the elders whose wisdom was question by Timothy, Timothy must have felt discourage in this situation and felt it is a hopeless situation for making a break through. And he must have stop trying, finding difficult to try. Paul reminded him that God has sent him there for a reason, and advice him to make himself strong and continiun in his ministry, and guard his mine from those hopes to see a quick solussion, but that to wait for the timing of God, God is working, give him the time that he needs in this situation. 

[thereselittleflower]

1  Timothy 1:7

 Nasb says 'For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.' 

Since I trust the nasb most, I believe this is most correct, as they all say it is, being the most literal version. It is rated #1 in that. I read both these words in Greek are different actually, but derived from the same word.  My question is, is their a correlation between the two in which saying sound mind can be used interchangeably?  

Also, fear is used instead if timidity sometimes in other versions.  Why? Timidity seems to bring on a more specific meaning than fear alone. A different result of being afraid of something specifically.  Fear of the people. Bashful.

 

When you're looking at translations, it's important to remember that there are various approaches to translating the scriptures and they fall somewhere on a continuum with ultra literal being at one end and very thought-for-thought on the other.  

Literal word-for-word translations seek to translate the scriptures word for word.  The problem with this is that while the words are correct, they may not convey the same ideas or thoughts in English that the writers were trying to convey in the original language thousands of years removed from us in time and culture and idioms.

Thought-for-thought translations seek to overcome this problem by not focusing so much on the literal words for word translation, but instead try to capture the intent better.  The problem with this is in the process not all the nuances and shades of meaning contained in the original can always be captured in the translation, and also bias can more easily enter the translation process.    Paraphrases are at the far end of this approach.

In between these two extremes are all the translations that seek to be one or the other or a mixture of the two approaches.

 

I like to use one from the word-for-word end, and one from the thought-for-thought end, and another from the middle when I am reading/studying scripture.   This is why parallel bibles are such a good idea.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Pamelasv]

Sound mind --Sophroneo 4993  

In translation many different words can be used and context does help to determine the better one.   It litend understanding.   In this case, a sound mind is one that is by implication disciplined and not given to hysteria or pertified from fear.    It uses sound judgement and moderation.   Sober minded.

Fearful, timid--deilia 1167  

The Holy Spirit gave Peter boldness to delare the risen Christ and preach the Gospel on the day of Pentacost.  This is in contrast to the fear he displayed when he denied the Lord three times.  So the Lord has not given us a spirit of fear but of a sound, stable mind.    I am not sure that discipline is the best choice here but it is still a correct choice by implication.  No translation is perfect so I compare NASV with NKJV and other literal versions.  And I like Vine's and The Complete Word Study Dictionary.  Anyone who had studied a foreign language knows the value of a dictionary.  But it also helps to pray and ask God to help us understand the meaning.

Personally, I still benefit from checking the dictionary to get a better idea of what the word means.  

This was a great explanation. Unfortunately Im not really grasping the first part between the similarity of the sound mind and discipline. 

[Pamelasv]

1  Timothy 1:7

 Nasb says 'For God has not given us a spirit of

 this is most correct, as they allsay iGreek are different actually, but derived from the same word.  My question is, is their a correlation between the two in which saying sound mind can be used interchangeably?  

Also, fear is used instead if timidity sometimes in other versions.  Why? Timidity seems to bring on a more specific meaning than fear alone. A different result of being afraid of something specifically.  Fear of the people. Bashful.

 

When you're looking at translations, it's important to remember that there are various approaches to translating the scriptures and they fall somewhere on a continuum with ultra literal being at one end and very thought-for-thought on the other.  

Literal word-for-word translations seek to translate the scriptures word for word.  The problem with this is that while the words are correct, they may not convey the same ideas or thoughts in English that the writers were trying to convey in the original language thousands of years removed from us in time and culture and idioms.

Thought-for-thought translations seek to overcome this problem by not focusing so much on the literal words for word translation, but instead try to capture the intent better.  The problem with this is in the process not all the nuances and shades of meaning contained in the original can always be captured in the translation, and also bias can more easily enter the translation process.    Paraphrases are at the far end of this approach.

In between these two extremes are all the translations that seek to be one or the other or a mixture of the two approaches.

 

I like to use one from the word-for-word end, and one from the thought-for-thought end, and another from the middle when I am reading/studying scripture.   This is why parallel bibles are such a good idea.

 

 

I have a bible app that I can switch translations.  I guess I should try out the thought for thought ones along side, assuming THEY agree. Lol.  But when I think about, I have a hard time believing the writers of the literal translations didnt take this into consideration.  Plus, it is a whole team of people making a consensis. 

[thereselittleflower]

1  Timothy 1:7

 Nasb says 'For God has not given us a spirit of

 this is most correct, as they allsay iGreek are different actually, but derived from the same word.  My question is, is their a correlation between the two in which saying sound mind can be used interchangeably?  

Also, fear is used instead if timidity sometimes in other versions.  Why? Timidity seems to bring on a more specific meaning than fear alone. A different result of being afraid of something specifically.  Fear of the people. Bashful.

 

When you're looking at translations, it's important to remember that there are various approaches to translating the scriptures and they fall somewhere on a continuum with ultra literal being at one end and very thought-for-thought on the other.  

Literal word-for-word translations seek to translate the scriptures word for word.  The problem with this is that while the words are correct, they may not convey the same ideas or thoughts in English that the writers were trying to convey in the original language thousands of years removed from us in time and culture and idioms.

Thought-for-thought translations seek to overcome this problem by not focusing so much on the literal words for word translation, but instead try to capture the intent better.  The problem with this is in the process not all the nuances and shades of meaning contained in the original can always be captured in the translation, and also bias can more easily enter the translation process.    Paraphrases are at the far end of this approach.

In between these two extremes are all the translations that seek to be one or the other or a mixture of the two approaches.

 

I like to use one from the word-for-word end, and one from the thought-for-thought end, and another from the middle when I am reading/studying scripture.   This is why parallel bibles are such a good idea.

 

 

I have a bible app that I can switch translations.  I guess I should try out the thought for thought ones along side, assuming THEY agree. Lol.  But when I think about, I have a hard time believing the writers of the literal translations didnt take this into consideration.  Plus, it is a whole team of people making a consensis. 

It's not a matter of taking something into consideration.  It's a matter of approach.  A literal translation cannot be a thought-for-thought translation because of the approach.

Reading up on the different approaches to bible translation might be of help.

When you translate from one language family to another, there is no way you can accurately translate everything - the two language families express thoughts differently.

For instance, where we say "a bird in hand is worth two in a bush" another culture very different from our own, with a language from a different language family would look at that, if literally translated, and scratch their heads and say "huh?  what's that supposed to mean?"   They would need it translated into a saying that carries the same meaning or else they would have to study our culture, language and figures of speech to be able to say  "oh, THIS is what they mean."

"a bird in the hand is worth two in a bush"  is not to meant to be taken literally.  It is a figure of speech.   If it is only translated literally its meaning gets lost in the translation.   So if the translator is going to stick to the literal meaning of the words, then the words will be translated correctly but the meaning will be lost in the language it was translated into.    This is why a literal translation cannot capture all the meanings of words and phrases of the original language.  There is just no way around this.  This is a limitation of language.

 

 

 

 

[Pamelasv]

1  Timothy 1:7

 Nasb says 'For God has not given us a spirit of

 this is most correct, as they allsay iGreek are different actually, but derived from the same word.  My question is, is their a correlation between the two in which saying sound mind can be used interchangeably?  

Also, fear is used instead if timidity sometimes in other versions.  Why? Timidity seems to bring on a more specific meaning than fear alone. A different result of being afraid of something specifically.  Fear of the people. Bashful.

 

When you're looking at translations, it's important to remember that there are various approaches to translating the scriptures and they fall somewhere on a continuum with ultra literal being at one end and very thought-for-thought on the other.  

Literal word-for-word translations seek to translate the scriptures word for word.  The problem with this is that while the words are correct, they may not convey the same ideas or thoughts in English that the writers were trying to convey in the original language thousands of years removed from us in time and culture and idioms.

Thought-for-thought translations seek to overcome this problem by not focusing so much on the literal words for word translation, but instead try to capture the intent better.  The problem with this is in the process not all the nuances and shades of meaning contained in the original can always be captured in the translation, and also bias can more easily enter the translation process.    Paraphrases are at the far end of this approach.

In between these two extremes are all the translations that seek to be one or the other or a mixture of the two approaches.

 

I like to use one from the word-for-word end, and one from the thought-for-thought end, and another from the middle when I am reading/studying scripture.   This is why parallel bibles are such a good idea.

 

 

I have a bible app that I can switch translations.  I guess I should try out the thought for thought ones along side, assuming THEY agree. Lol.  But when I think about, I have a hard time believing the writers of the literal translations didnt take this into consideration.  Plus, it is a whole team of people making a consensis. 

It's not a matter of taking something into consideration.  It's a matter of approach.  A literal translation cannot be a thought-for-thought translation because of the approach.

Reading up on the different approaches to bible translation might be of help.

When you translate from one language family to another, there is no way you can accurately translate everything - the two language families express thoughts differently.

For instance, where we say "a bird in hand is worth two in a bush" another culture very different from our own, with a language from a different language family would look at that, if literally translated, and scratch their heads and say "huh?  what's that supposed to mean?"   They would need it translated into a saying that carries the same meaning or else they would have to study our culture, language and figures of speech to be able to say  "oh, THIS is what they mean."

"a bird in the hand is worth two in a bush"  is not to meant to be taken literally.  It is a figure of speech.   If it is only translated literally its meaning gets lost in the translation.   So if the translator is going to stick to the literal meaning of the words, then the words will be translated correctly but the meaning will be lost in the language it was translated into.    This is why a literal translation cannot capture all the meanings of words and phrases of the original language.  There is just no way around this.  This is a limitation of language.

 

 

 

 

I am completely understanding your point.  I believe it.  

[Willa]

I think it is like a fire drill.  You practice what you would do in such an event.  We can also do this by rehearsing in our minds what to do.  We put this into practice in a house fire.  We automaticly responded without panic but with some urgency.  My husband had his hand on my shoulder behind me the way he had been taught in the navy.  We got out safely and just in time before the stairs went up in flames.   That was a disciplined response without giving way to hysteria but responding with a sound mind.  

Sound mind --Sophroneo 4993  

In translation many different words can be used and context does help to determine the better one.   It litend understanding.   In this case, a sound mind is one that is by implication disciplined and not given to hysteria or pertified from fear.    It uses sound judgement and moderation.   Sober minded.

Fearful, timid--deilia 1167  

The Holy Spirit gave Peter boldness to delare the risen Christ and preach the Gospel on the day of Pentacost.  This is in contrast to the fear he displayed when he denied the Lord three times.  So the Lord has not given us a spirit of fear but of a sound, stable mind.    I am not sure that discipline is the best choice here but it is still a correct choice by implication.  No translation is perfect so I compare NASV with NKJV and other literal versions.  And I like Vine's and The Complete Word Study Dictionary.  Anyone who had studied a foreign language knows the value of a dictionary.  But it also helps to pray and ask God to help us understand the meaning.

Personally, I still benefit from checking the dictionary to get a better idea of what the word means.  

This was a great explanation. Unfortunately Im not really grasping the first part between the similarity of the sound mind and discipline. 

The problem with thought for thought translations is that they still leave a lot to a personal bias of the translator.  I still stick to the literal translations as well.  Too many things in the Bible are written off as figurative when they are meant literally.  Some people do a much better job than others in conveying the original intent, and many people often work on a translation.  

 

[Willa]

This gauge of how literal a translation is uses the Alexandria text as the gauge.  If you don't care for that text but prefer the more commonly used majority text then KJV or NKJV may be higher on the list as closer to the original text.  Just a thought.  

[Your closest friendnt]

On 23 November, 2015 8:03:57 PM, Willa said:

I think it is like a fire drill.  You practice what you would do in such an event.  We can also do this by rehearsing in our minds what to do.  We put this into practice in a house fire.  We automaticly responded without panic but with some urgency.  My husband had his hand on my shoulder behind me the way he had been taught in the navy.  We got out safely and just in time before the stairs went up in flames.   That was a disciplined response without giving way to hysteria but responding with a sound mind.  

The problem with thought for thought translations is that they still leave a lot to a personal bias of the translator.  I still stick to the literal translations as well.  Too many things in the Bible are written off as figurative when they are meant literally.  Some people do a much better job than others in conveying the original intent, and many people often work on a translation.  

 

This text is referring to the emotional, shycological and mental state of Timothy at that specific time.

It is not a doctrinal matter, that needs to stay close to the original words, this is better analyze by using the thought to thought method. 

Timothy did not feel like that when he was with Paul or in a supporting inviroment, but what he eventually had to face the chalenges awaiting for him in this new environment,  that effected him and he felt indimidated and scared, of the prominent people,( the elders that oppose him), and they rather see him going away. 

He felt dissapointed, but he was not scared, no one had threaten his well been, he was not prosecuted, only that he was mot received with gladness, that the people seem to ignore him, like he was given a cold shoulder.

Is it not the same today, don't people suggest the ignore button, to make others feel ignore, alone, timid to express themselfs, so they can eventually quit,

Perhaps the elders were doing something like that to him, it is clear they did not like him. That he was taking their space.

 

[Pamelasv]

On 11/23/2015, 7:03:57, Willa said:

I think it is like a fire drill.  You practice what you would do in such an event.  We can also do this by rehearsing in our minds what to do.  We put this into practice in a house fire.  We automaticly responded without panic but with some urgency.  My husband had his hand on my shoulder behind me the way he had been taught in the navy.  We got out safely and just in time before the stairs went up in flames.   That was a disciplined response without giving way to hysteria but responding with a sound mind.  

The problem with thought for thought translations is that they still leave a lot to a personal bias of the translator.  I still stick to the literal translations as well.  Too many things in the Bible are written off as figurative when they are meant literally.  Some people do a much better job than others in conveying the original intent, and many people often work on a translation.  

 

I got it. Great post.