Confirming the Covenant

[Esther4:14]

 

You know absolutely nothing about the Bible. You just posted that Israel was worshipped by the whole world (a lie) and that they were conspiring to bring the A/C to power (another lie) and that the A/C will be a Jew (another lie). and you have absolutely NO Biblical backing for anything.  Btw, I don't get my  religious views from the GOP; what a foolish thing to say. You are deluded, as I said, and I sincerely hope you find your way to the Truth before it's too late. 

Yes, I did and you just proved my point.  

Just you wait until all of our helping Israel who rejects Christ gets us taken into captivity with Israel and they turn around and make us their slaves through a false covenant with us that there is no intention of keeping.  If there were a prophet here today, they would putting on some sackcloth and ashes over this.  

Wait, that's right.  There are two witnesses coming clothed in sackcloth (Revelation 11:3), and it is looking like they will be killed by the state of Israel.  

"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Revelation 11:8).  

Or, does someone think that He is planning on sending His two witnesses to the Palestinians.  

The two witnesses will be sent to Israel and they will be rejected by the decedents of Abraham.

All it would take is for the powers that be to set Israel up to be the hero that overcomes the "enemy" Islamic nation, and the world would worship Israel as a God in its own right, seperate and not dependent on Christ.  Because the elite are not phased by Islam.  They have enough money to pay them to be whatever religion they want them to be that will serve their interests the best.  

You aren't the first to come to this site to promote anti-Jew propaganda and completely unbiblical claims and I'm sure you won't be the last. The bolded, above, is off the charts.  But... you know how it goes here, Esther.  Please post chapter and verse to back up your way out there assertions. 

well arent I just so surprised you resort to name calling.  No I am not.  It is what I have come to expect from you by now.  Maybe you would think the prophets were antisemitic too for telling the people they would be taken into captivity.  Maybe it would be a good idea to read the prophets again and get an idea of how He has dealt with His people in the past, and why He has done this --because they would not get rid of their idols.  

But here is a vers.   "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.  Stand firm then and do not let yourselves AGAIN be burdeneded with a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1)  The way out of Israel's captivity is through Christ.   There is no other way.  

[MorningGlory]

You aren't the first to come to this site to promote anti-Jew propaganda and completely unbiblical claims and I'm sure you won't be the last. The bolded, above, is off the charts.  But... you know how it goes here, Esther.  Please post chapter and verse to back up your way out there assertions. 

well arent I just so surprised you resort to name calling.  No I am not.  It is what I have come to expect from you by now.  Maybe you would think the prophets were antisemitic too for telling the people they would be taken into captivity.  Maybe it would be a good idea to read the prophets again and get an idea of how He has dealt with His people in the past, and why He has done this --because they would not get rid of their idols.  

But here is a vers.   "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.  Stand firm then and do not let yourselves AGAIN be burdeneded with a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1)  The way out of Israel's captivity is through Christ.   There is no other way.  

Once again, you make untrue statements. Please quote the 'names' I called you.  The only one I see is 'Esther'; see, I even bolded it for you.  That verse no more explains your claims about Israel than fish have feathers.  I'm waiting for the Scriptural back up for your statements about Jews, Israel and the A/C. 

[Widor1]

 I also understand that the the Old Covenant with Israel has been replaced with the New Covenant with Israel, that the gentile nations are welcome to accept as well.  Therefore, as decedents of Abraham, I would strongly encourage them to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and decedents of Abraham are restored through accepting Christ as their Savior.  The New Covenant is the agreement He was making with a nation that rejected His law that gave them their privilege among the nations. 

You are looping in a couple of covenants here that are not the same. The New Covenant did not replace the Old Covenant. Jesus came to fulfill the law and prophets, not destroy or replace it, as He said:

Mat 5:17  Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18  For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Also, the covenant that God made with Abraham was not and is not conditional upon anything.

Gen 12:1  Now the LORD had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.
Gen 12:2  I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
Gen 12:3  I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

All have rejected God, both Jew and Gentile. Jesus came to save anyone who will believe on Him, both Jew and Gentile.

Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Therefore, I understand that building Israel as though it were God's will to allow the Jew to reject Him because they are decedents of Abraham is a lie.  It is just not true, and there is no reason to feel sorry for them for this, or think that this is spoken as a offense when Christ is ready save all those who will come to Him; and, they will be held to a higher standard because they were blessed with the law-and a Messiah.

The only reason Israel is a country right now is because of God. There is plenty of evidence in scripture to see this. I know that you are aware that there is a remnant who will turn to Jesus at the end. How do you know who is a remnant? If you knew who would be saved, would you treat them differently than those that are lost? Why would you not feel sorry for anyone who does not know Christ? There will be a day when Israel as a nation will recognize Him, and they will mourn their unbelief.

Zec 12:10  And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

     This "chosen people," thing is false teaching from people who do not want to accept Christ.  They want the church to believe that they don't have to accept Christ because they are "chosen," so they can resurrect the Israel where they served Kings.  This is where the Antichrist will come in. 

However, I still say, YES, they were chosen and that is why He sent His Son to die on the cross, and there is a difference in this teaching of the covenant He made with Abraham that we are being deceived with. 

I am confused. Either Jews being called the "chosen people" is false, or they were chosen by God. Which is it? Here is what God says:

Deu 7:6  For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

I think that it is a fantasy to think that all the Jews will be saved when this has never happened throughout scripture.

Jesus said He came for the lost sheep of Israel. Thank God He has not given up on the Jewish people. It is statements like this that turn Jews away from the Gospel of Grace. Please be careful.

 A blaring example is the Pharisees.  But, neither will the Gentiles.  A blaring example is the Cesars of Rome.   Even though both are able to do so, we will continue to grow together as wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30), and the greatest offense to Christ is a Jew who will reject Him as Savior because He came to save Israel because of His covenant with Abraham; in other words, he will be the Antichrist spoken of in scripture (2 Thessalonians 2:4).  

Where in the Bible does Jesus say what the greatest offense to Him is? Christ died for all sinners... and I don't remember Him being offended when we (Jews, Gentiles, the world, etc.) rejected Him. Isaiah 53:10 says it pleased the Lord to bruise Him. To sin is to reject Jesus. That is why He came.

Rom 5:6  For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7  For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

As for 2 Thessalonians 2:4... if you look in verse 3, it seems to be talking about one man. If, according to you, it is fantasy that all Jews will be saved, that must mean you believe that many will be lost. The man of sin is one person, not many; therefore, I do not believe this scripture points to unbelieving Jews as the "antichrist."

2Th 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4  who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I hope that you will prayerfully consider how your witness is being perceived by all who come in contact with you.

[Esther4:14]

 I also understand that the the Old Covenant with Israel has been replaced with the New Covenant with Israel, that the gentile nations are welcome to accept as well.  Therefore, as decedents of Abraham, I would strongly encourage them to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and decedents of Abraham are restored through accepting Christ as their Savior.  The New Covenant is the agreement He was making with a nation that rejected His law that gave them their privilege among the nations. 

You are looping in a couple of covenants here that are not the same. The New Covenant did not replace the Old Covenant. Jesus came to fulfill the law and prophets, not destroy or replace it, as He said:

Mat 5:17  Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18  For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Also, the covenant that God made with Abraham was not and is not conditional upon anything.

Gen 12:1  Now the LORD had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.
Gen 12:2  I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
Gen 12:3  I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

All have rejected God, both Jew and Gentile. Jesus came to save anyone who will believe on Him, both Jew and Gentile.

Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Therefore, I understand that building Israel as though it were God's will to allow the Jew to reject Him because they are decedents of Abraham is a lie.  It is just not true, and there is no reason to feel sorry for them for this, or think that this is spoken as a offense when Christ is ready save all those who will come to Him; and, they will be held to a higher standard because they were blessed with the law-and a Messiah.

The only reason Israel is a country right now is because of God. There is plenty of evidence in scripture to see this. I know that you are aware that there is a remnant who will turn to Jesus at the end. How do you know who is a remnant? If you knew who would be saved, would you treat them differently than those that are lost? Why would you not feel sorry for anyone who does not know Christ? There will be a day when Israel as a nation will recognize Him, and they will mourn their unbelief.

Zec 12:10  And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

     This "chosen people," thing is false teaching from people who do not want to accept Christ.  They want the church to believe that they don't have to accept Christ because they are "chosen," so they can resurrect the Israel where they served Kings.  This is where the Antichrist will come in. 

However, I still say, YES, they were chosen and that is why He sent His Son to die on the cross, and there is a difference in this teaching of the covenant He made with Abraham that we are being deceived with. 

I am confused. Either Jews being called the "chosen people" is false, or they were chosen by God. Which is it? Here is what God says:

Deu 7:6  For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

I think that it is a fantasy to think that all the Jews will be saved when this has never happened throughout scripture.

Jesus said He came for the lost sheep of Israel. Thank God He has not given up on the Jewish people. It is statements like this that turn Jews away from the Gospel of Grace. Please be careful.

 A blaring example is the Pharisees.  But, neither will the Gentiles.  A blaring example is the Cesars of Rome.   Even though both are able to do so, we will continue to grow together as wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30), and the greatest offense to Christ is a Jew who will reject Him as Savior because He came to save Israel because of His covenant with Abraham; in other words, he will be the Antichrist spoken of in scripture (2 Thessalonians 2:4).  

Where in the Bible does Jesus say what the greatest offense to Him is? Christ died for all sinners... and I don't remember Him being offended when we (Jews, Gentiles, the world, etc.) rejected Him. Isaiah 53:10 says it pleased the Lord to bruise Him. To sin is to reject Jesus. That is why He came.

Rom 5:6  For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7  For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

As for 2 Thessalonians 2:4... if you look in verse 3, it seems to be talking about one man. If, according to you, it is fantasy that all Jews will be saved, that must mean you believe that many will be lost. The man of sin is one person, not many; therefore, I do not believe this scripture points to unbelieving Jews as the "antichrist."

2Th 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4  who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I hope that you will prayerfully consider how your witness is being perceived by all who come in contact with you.

They cannot be a chosen people if they reject Christ.  It contradicts everything in the New Testament.  Israel will all be saved because Israel will be defined as all of those who accept Christ.  That is the definition of all of Israel will be saved.  To say otherwise is to contradict the context of the whole Bible and the gift of free will.  It will never happen that all of either Jew or Gentile will be saved just like they were not all saved in the wilderness.  They did not all enter the land because they had the free will to choose idolatry in the wilderness.  Saying that they are the "chosen" people as though they do not have to accept the New Covenant He made with them that requires they accept Christ and that no one will come to the Father but by Him (John 14:6), is a doctrine by people who are from the Zionist agenda who are not Christians.  They are like the Judaizers from the book of Gentiles trying to teach the church that they don't have to accept Christ because they are chosen people.  I am sorry that the truth is difficult for you to accept.  

[Esther4:14]

 

I think that it is a fantasy to think that all the Jews will be saved when this has never happened throughout scripture.

Jesus said He came for the lost sheep of Israel. Thank God He has not given up on the Jewish people. It is statements like this that turn Jews away from the Gospel of Grace. Please be careful.

 

For one, I specifically and clearly stated this as a foundation for the case that I was making throughout my post.  It is the basis for considering the greatest offense to the cross would be from the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 23:37).  I made this very clear throughout my post.  

For two, I have been through things that are inappropriate to share on a site like this.  Horrible, horrible things, and at the end of the day, these things don't give me a exemption from repentance card.  As a victim of severe injustice, I still have to repent of my sins.  I call someone who cannot repent because of what you are suggesting keeps the Jews from the Gospel of grace, fickle.  

[Earnest]

 

 

From the early church fathers on, “He who confirmed the covenant” in Dan 9:27 has been thought to be Jesus Christ. The seven years were typically split up into Jesus' ministry for three and a half years, and then the assumed three and a half years between Jesus' ascension and the going of the gospel to the gentiles, marked by Peter's testifying to Cornelius in Acts 10.

 

This view says that the purpose of Christ's ministry was to confirm God's new covenant of grace with many, and that after three and a half years he put an end to sacrifice and offering.

 

A very few of the many scholars of the past who have suggested this interpretation include:

 

John Calvin (1509-1564): Now, therefore, we understand why the angel says, Christ should confirm the covenant for one week, and why that week was placed last in order. In this week will he confirm the covenant with many. [Myers, Thomas M.A. Commentaries on the Book of the Prophet Daniel by John Calvin 2 Vols. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Pub. Co. 1948, p.225]

 

Matthew Henry (1662-1714): He shall introduce a new covenant between God and man, a covenant of grace... By offering himself a sacrifice once for all he shall put an end to all the Levitical sacrifices. [Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible Vol.4 New York: Fleming H. Revell Company 1712, p.1094-5]

 

Irah Chase D.D.: The whole period of which we are treating is distributed into three portions. The first consists of seven year-weeks; the second, of sixty-two; and the third, of one. The first ends with the complete restoration of the city; the second with the public appearing of the Messiah; and the third with the full confirming of the new covenant. This last portion is divided into two parts. In the midst of it the great propitiatory sacrifice was offered, which, in effect was to supersede all the offerings of the Jewish ritual. [Chase, Irah, D.D Remarks on the Book of Daniel Boston: Gould, Kendall and Lincoln" 1844, p.76]

 

Edward B. Pusey: At a time within the 490 years, but after the first 483, i.e. in the last 7, Messiah was to be cut off; in the midst of those 7, he was to make sacrifice to cease, but to confirm a covenant, not with all, but with the many; transgression, sin, iniquity were to be effaced: everlasting righteousness was to be brought in;... He is to confirm the covenant with many; and this covenant must be plainly a new covenant, since the typical atonements for sin were to be abolished. [Pusey, Edward Daniel the Prophet Minneapolis, Minn.: Klock & Klock Christian Publishers, 1978, p.201]

 

He speaks not of a temporary suspension of sacrifices, but of the entire abolition of all which had been offered hitherto, the sacrifice, with the shedding of blood, and the oblation, the unbloody sacrifice which was its complement. These the Messiah was to make to cease three years and a half after that new covenant began. [Pusey Op Cit, p.192]

 

W.S. Auchincloss, C.E.: This "one week" was divided into 2 parts of 3 1/2 years each. The first half covered the Ministry of the Messiah. [Auchincloss, W.S. The Book of Daniel Unlocked C.E. New York: Van Nostrand Company 1905, p.70]

 

Edward J. Young, Th.M. Ph.D.: For the period of the 70th seven the Messiah causes a covenant to prevail for many, and in the half of this seven by His death He causes the Jewish sacrifices and oblation to cease. His death is thus seen to belong within the 70th seven. [Young, Edward J. The Prophecy of Daniel, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing 1949 by John Calvin 2 Vols. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Pub. Co. 1948, p.220]

 

John Cumming D.D.: In the first seven weeks the city was to be built, in the sixty-two weeks the Messiah was to be manifested, in the middle of the remaining week the Messiah was to be cut off. [Cumming, John, D.D. Lectures on the Book of Daniel Philadelphia: Lindsay and Blakiston 1856, p.381]

 

But the best proof of it is, that when he should thus die and be cut off, the prophecy was fulfilled that the offering and the oblation should cease. It is said, "And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease," [Cumming Op Cit, p.391]

 

H. Deane: ...in the midst of the last week, Messiah shall make a firm covenant with many, and make the sacrifices of the Law cease. ... The Messiah shall, says Daniel, "confirm the covenant with many for one week." Need we doubt what this covenant is? It is the covenant of Grace, the promise of the Holy Spirit foretold by Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others. [Deane, H. Men of the Bible: Daniel; His life and Times New York: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1888, p.157]

 

J. Barton Payne: (Christ is the) embodiment of the redemptive testament of God. As the Servant of Yahweh, He proclaimed the gospel to Israel during his 3 1/2-year ministry (Isa 42:1-4, Mt 12:17-21), thus confirming to them the grace of the divine testament [covenant] (Isa 42:6). Next, upon Calvary, He brought to a close the OT economy of redemption, rending the veil of the temple (Mt 27:51) and causing legitimate typical sacrifice once and for all to cease (Heb 9:12). [Payne, J. Barton Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1973, p.388]

 

According to the above, it is not necessary to dogmatically assume that Daniel's 70th week applies exclusively to the tribulation before the return of Christ. It is possible for responsible theologians to consider Daniel's 70th week to apply to Christ's confirmation of the new covenant. This is an historic position of the orthodox Christian church supported by theologians for two millennia and can be considered a reasonable possibility.

 

What does the Bible say about this idea?

 

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one. - Heb 8:6

 

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; - Heb 8:13

 

Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. - Heb 9:15

 

 

Regarding the covenant, and therefore the tribulation, being 7 years long, there is nothing in the Bible that associates any end times period being 7 years long. The only passage that discusses a future seven year period is Dan 9:27.

 

Irenaeus (120-202) was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John, who most likely wrote the book of Revelation. (How much closer to the original source must one get to understand John's teaching?) Irenaeus only wrote of a 3 1/2 year tribulation.

 

And then he [Daniel] points out the time that his [Antichrist's] tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: "And in the midst of the week," he says, "the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete." Now three years and six months constitute the half-week. [The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Ante-Nicene Christian Library Translated by Rev. S. D. F. Salmond, M.A. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark 1869 p.554]

 

Daniel also spoke to this subject in Chapter 7, verse 25.

 

“He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.”

 

The teaching that Dan 9:27 applies to antichrist and that the tribulation (based on the length of the covenant) will be 7 years long, to my knowledge, was first invented at the Albury Prophecy conferences in England in the late 1820's.

 

Edward Irving was an attendee of these annual meetings and was good friends with Lady Powerscourt, who established her own prophecy meetings in the early 1830's. All Dispensationalists trace their beginnings to these meetings and the later teachings of John Nelson Darby.

 

The pre-trib rapture seems to have been developed at the Albury conferences and by the followers of Edward Irving (Irvingites) as well but it was controversial because Mt 24 contradicted it. It was several years later that Darby invented the “two peoples of God” (Jews and Gentiles) in order to apply Mt 24 to the Jews so it would not contradict the pre-trib rapture idea. It is only through the questionable teachings of Darby's dispensationalism which creates the “two peoples of God” theory that the concept of a “pre-trib rapture” can be proposed.

 

This separation of the Jews and Gentiles is now “the most basic theological test of whether or not a man is a dispensationalist”.

 

Charles Ryrie:

"This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a man is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. A man who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctions; and one who does, will. [Ryrie, Charles C. Dispensationalism Today Chicago: Moody Press 1965, p.45]"

 

It is also important to note that without this invented distinction by Darby, there is no justification, indeed no evidence at all, for a “rapture” of the saints before the tribulation.

 

John Walvoord:

Much of the background for the differing points of view on pretribulationism as opposed to posttribulationism is found in different concepts of the church. While it is difficult to make an accurate generalization, usually those who sharply distinguish Israel and the church are both premillennial and pretribulational, while those who consider Israel and the church more or less the same concept, even if premillennial, tend to be posttribulational. The concept of the church as a distinct entity, peculiar to the present age since the Day of Pentecost, usually goes along with the idea that the church will be translated before the tribulation. [Fuller 1957 p.357/ John F. Walvoord, "Premillennialism and the Tribulation," Bibliothece Sacra, CXI (Oct 1954]

 

If there is but one people of God, posttribulationism naturally follows, for the Scriptures declare that God's people will be on earth during the great tribulation. [Fuller, Daniel P., unpublished doctoral dissertation, The Hermanutics of Dispensationalism, Chicago: Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1957, p.363]

 

"There is a method of interpretation that is absolutely essential for determining which view concerning the Rapture is correct. This method is called dispensationalism." [Lindsey, Hal, The Rapture, N.Y.: Bantam Books, 1983, p.47]

 

With this statement Lindsey says that only dispensationalists can understand the complete truth of the Scripture, which includes the proposed pre-tribulational rapture. If one is not a dispensationalist, according to Lindsey, he cannot understand the Bible as well as one who interprets the Bible with the dispensationalist prerogative. (There are many more quotes of this nature and attitude in Dispensational writings.)

 

To sum up, the belief that it is the anti-Christ who establishes a covenant for seven years is a teaching of dispensationalism which contradicts the historical teaching that it is Christ who established a strong covenant with many. Dispensationalism (which gets many of its primary ideas from the Albury Conferences and the Irvingites) is also the source of the teaching of a seven year tribulation and a pre-tribulation rapture.

 

Since John and Matthew and Paul and Daniel, speaking by supernatural inspiration of the Holy Spirit (not to mention nearly two millenia of theologians and writers), said nothing about a seven year end times period, nor anything about the return of Christ before the tribulation, why should should we submit to the “new teachings” of Irving and Darby and demand that it must be so?

 

 

A few extra notes:

How valid is Dispensationalism? (Thus, how valid is the concept of a seven year tribulation and the anti-Christ making a 7 year covenant with Israel, and the pre-trib rapture?)

 

"... the entire system of "dispensational teaching" is modernistic in the strictest sense; for it first came into existence within the memory of persons now living... [Mauro Op Cit, p.8]"

 

"The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture seems to have been emphasized widely about 100 years ago by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren. [Ralph Earle, "Behold, I Come", p.74 / MacPherson, Dave The Great Rapture Hoax Fletcher, N.C.: New Puritan Library, 1983, p.30]"

 

"We quite deliberately reject the dispensational theories, propounded first about 1830, as innovations that a careful and unbiased study of the Scriptures not only does not sustain, but exposes at every turn. [Reese, Alexander The Approaching Advent of Christ London: Marshall, Morgan and Scott, no date given, p.293]"

 

"...the theory...that the believers will be raptured before the antichristian tribulation, flatly contradicts specific utterances of Ireneus and Lactantius and finds extremely little support, if any, among the other ancient Premillenarians. [Reese, Alexander The Approaching Advent of Christ London: Marshall, Morgan and Scott, no date given, p.252-3]"

 

"These views, which began to be propagated a little over one hundred years ago in the separatist movements of Edward Irving and J. N. Darby have spread to the remotest corners of the earth. [Reese Op Cit, p.xi]"

 

"I strongly believe dispensationalism to be a departure from the historic faith and to be based on a faulty system of interpretation. [Bass, Clarence B. Backgrounds to Dispensationalism Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co. 1960, p.155]"

 

"The precise point is that the distinguishing features of dispensationalism do not involve merely a chronology of events about the end times, as important as this may be, but involve some basic principles of interpretation that depart radically from the historic Christian faith, and that are often diametrically opposed to what the church always believed. The dispensationalism of John Darby and his followers is something different indeed from those attempts by theologians and biblical scholars of the past to understand God's relation to man as involving different periods of historical development of His revelation. [Bass Op Cit, p.17]"

 

It is thus concluded that Dispensationalism fails to pass the test of an adequate system of Biblical interpretation. Its system, founded on the basic premise that there must be an eternal distinction between Israel and the Church, cannot harmonize with several truths which the Bible makes explicit. Therefore, it cannot demonstrate the unity of the Bible. [Fuller Op Cit, p.369?]

 

Many people are more interested in the truth of the Bible than in theology. It is to them I write, not telling them what the truth is (other than the facts stated above), but encouraging them to search the truth of the Bible for themselves.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Earnest
Added references

[Esther4:14]

 

As for 2 Thessalonians 2:4... if you look in verse 3, it seems to be talking about one man. If, according to you, it is fantasy that all Jews will be saved, that must mean you believe that many will be lost. The man of sin is one person, not many; therefore, I do not believe this scripture points to unbelieving Jews as the "antichrist."

2Th 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4  who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I hope that you will prayerfully consider how your witness is being perceived by all who come in contact with you.

"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12).  

Judas represents the son of perdition as being taken out the twelve.  Therefore, suggesting that the future son of perdition would come out of Israel.  

I have prayerfully considered how my witness is being perceived which is why I am here and not trying to publish my own book.  This is a more informal setting where I can mistakes without the same backlash.  I will admit that I am young still.  I am only 33 right now and I anticipate that it will still be another 3-5 years before I will be mature enough to do something more formal.  I honestly realize that when compared to formal writing, I fall very short right now.  The plan is to fine tune what He wants me to say to fulfill the purpose that the Lord has given to me that I have been working towards since the day I accepted salvation.  I enjoy being here, but I would consider maybe only a handful capable of discerning my errors at this point.  However, there is not need to worry.  He will help me find them before I move on to whatever is next.  

[FresnoJoe]

They cannot be a chosen people if they reject Christ....  
It contradicts everything in the New Testament....
Israel will all be saved because Israel....
will be defined as all of those who accept Christ....

Things

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 1:26 (KJV)

In The Old And New Testament

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jeremiah 31:31 (KJV)

Point To The Total Restoration Of Israel

"This is what the LORD says: "'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents and have compassion on his dwellings; the city will be rebuilt on her ruins, and the palace will stand in its proper place. Jeremiah 30:18 (NIV)

When Jesus Comes Back Again

Then I will return to my place until they admit their guilt and turn to me. For as soon as trouble comes, they will earnestly search for me." Hosea 5:15 (NLT)

You See

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:16-17 (KJV)

~

PS: Want To Know When Jesus Will Leave Heaven (Rapture)

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (ESV)

Look To Jerusalem

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:21-22 (ESV)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (KJV)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[MorningGlory]

 

As for 2 Thessalonians 2:4... if you look in verse 3, it seems to be talking about one man. If, according to you, it is fantasy that all Jews will be saved, that must mean you believe that many will be lost. The man of sin is one person, not many; therefore, I do not believe this scripture points to unbelieving Jews as the "antichrist."

2Th 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4  who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I hope that you will prayerfully consider how your witness is being perceived by all who come in contact with you.

"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12).  

Judas represents the son of perdition as being taken out the twelve.  Therefore, suggesting that the future son of perdition would come out of Israel.  

I have prayerfully considered how my witness is being perceived which is why I am here and not trying to publish my own book.  This is a more informal setting where I can mistakes without the same backlash.  I will admit that I am young still.  I am only 33 right now and I anticipate that it will still be another 3-5 years before I will be mature enough to do something more formal.  I honestly realize that when compared to formal writing, I fall very short right now.  The plan is to fine tune what He wants me to say to fulfill the purpose that the Lord has given to me that I have been working towards since the day I accepted salvation.  I enjoy being here, but I would consider maybe only a handful capable of discerning my errors at this point.  However, there is not need to worry.  He will help me find them before I move on to whatever is next.  

Your views on Israel and pretty much everything else Scriptural are simply ill conceived.  And I'm still waiting for Scripture to back up your claims.  Most who can't do that simply move on to another subject.

[Esther4:14]

They cannot be a chosen people if they reject Christ....  
It contradicts everything in the New Testament....
Israel will all be saved because Israel....
will be defined as all of those who accept Christ....

Things

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 1:26 (KJV)

In The Old And New Testament

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jeremiah 31:31 (KJV)

Point To The Total Restoration Of Israel

"This is what the LORD says: "'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents and have compassion on his dwellings; the city will be rebuilt on her ruins, and the palace will stand in its proper place. Jeremiah 30:18 (NIV)

When Jesus Comes Back Again

Then I will return to my place until they admit their guilt and turn to me. For as soon as trouble comes, they will earnestly search for me." Hosea 5:15 (NLT)

You See

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:16-17 (KJV)

~

PS: Want To Know When Jesus Will Leave Heaven (Rapture)

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (ESV)

Look To Jerusalem

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:21-22 (ESV)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (KJV)

Love, Your Brother Joe

 This is the definition of Israel according to the teachings of the oral law which are behind the Zionist movement that depends on genealogy for salvation.  The definition of Israel according to the Gospel is given in John 10:14-16

 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—  just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.  I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."  

This is the definition of all who will be saved and part of Israel (Romans 11:25-27).  It will be all the ones who hear the Shepherds voice are gathered together.  Then, Israel will be restored.  

I also want to say that your loving presence on this board has helped me many times from falling into the error of not liking some people a whole lot since I have been here.  I really appreciate your words and kindness.  You are a very worthy watchman.  

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35).