DO YOU BELIEVE ITS OKAY TO EAT PORK, AS A BELIEVER IN GOD ?

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Again NO! That is not what Jesus is teaching. How are you not getting this?

I didn't say that Jesus was teaching that.   This is second time, I have had to clarify that point.  How are you not getting that?

 

 

 

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Prove it....I have scripture that states otherwise.

Ante up.  Provide those Scriptures for review.

 

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I didnt say we become jews I said we sojourn with Israel....the common wealth of Israel..one law.....perhaps you should revisit ezekiels prophecies

No, we don't sojourn with Israel.

 

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whosoever teaches men to break even one of the LEAST of these commandments shall be called LEAST in the Kingdom.”

I am not telling anyone to break God's commandments.  Gentile Christians are not required to follow the dietary laws.  So, they are not breaking any laws.  You can't break a law unless it applies to you.

[BobRyan]

15 minutes ago, Yowm said:

You do realize what happens when you put yourself under the law, and especially others?

You do realize that we are not to take God's name in vain - even as NT - New Covenant Christians - right?

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

1 John 5:2 "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW of God"

Eph 6:2 the 5th Commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid Ten Commandment Law of God.

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For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
(Jas 2:10)

 

Is James 2 arguing for rebellion or obedience to the LAW of God? -- let the reader decide.

James 2

⁸ If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; ⁹ but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. ¹⁰ For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. ¹¹ For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. ¹² So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty

"These things I write to you that you sin NOT" 1 John 2:1

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

"THIS is the NEW Covenant that I will make... I will write My LAWs on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-10

 

[Guest shiloh357]

49 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

You do realize that we are not to take God's name in vain - even as NT - New Covenant Christians - right?

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

1 John 5:2 "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW of God"

Eph 6:2 the 5th Commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid Ten Commandment Law of God.

 

Is James 2 arguing for rebellion or obedience to the LAW of God? -- let the reader decide.

James 2

⁸ If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; ⁹ but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. ¹⁰ For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. ¹¹ For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. ¹² So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty

"These things I write to you that you sin NOT" 1 John 2:1

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

"THIS is the NEW Covenant that I will make... I will write My LAWs on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-10

 

Are you part of the seventh day adventist cult?

[BobRyan]

4 minutes ago, Yowm said:

None have to do with the JEWISH dietary laws.

Genesis 6,7, 9 etc we have the distinction of clean and unclean unimals with NO Jews at all.

In Isaiah 66 it is "mankind" that is subject to fire and brimstone judgment at the end of the world for "eating mice, swines flesh..." and worship of false gods.

Eating rats and diseased flesh - as Lev 11 says -- is "Abomination"

1 Cor 6 tells NT Christians not to destroy their bodies.

James 2 says that the rule for Christians has to do with "He who said"

Peter insists in Acts 10 that to that very day he had not been eating rats or diseased flesh.

There is not one example of any Christian in the NT eating rats or diseased flesh not even diseased beef.

[Riccardo]

Brother Yowm,

If you get yourself a good concordance you can see for yourself that the word unclean in Rom 14: 14 is translated incorrectly & should be common, which completely changes the meaning.

Your last comments seemed somewhat patronizing, to another brother, especially in the light of you being completely off target with your references.  

[BobRyan]

8 hours ago, Riccardo said:

Brother Yowm,

If you get yourself a good concordance you can see for yourself that the word unclean in Rom 14: 14 is translated incorrectly & should be common, which completely changes the meaning.

Your last comments seemed somewhat patronizing, to another brother, especially in the light of you being completely off target with your references.  

Rom 14 (NKJV)

² For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.

²⁰ Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. ²¹ It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. ²² Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. ²³ But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

The "weak" eat vegetables only in Rom 14 - and not meat. And in the OT all Jews were eating meat as they were also in the NT. It was the formerly-pagan gentiles that were "weak" and "eating vegetables only". So the question is why since they too as pagans were accustomed to eating meat?

 

Here is the answer in the debate between "meat vs vegetarian" (hint: Not rats vs beef)

1 Cor 8

⁴ Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. ⁵ For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), ⁶ yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

⁷ However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. ⁸ But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

⁹ But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. ¹⁰ For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? ¹¹ And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? ¹² But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. ¹³ Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

Newly converted Christians coming in from paganism still viewed the eating of meat offerred to idols as a part of worship to that idol. And they avoided it - to the point in Romans 14 - that they ate vegetables only - in some cases.

 

1 Cor 10

²⁷ If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. ²⁸ But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.” ²⁹ “Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? ³⁰ But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? ³¹ Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. ³² Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God,

 

 

 

[BobRyan]

10 hours ago, Yowm said:

None have to do with the JEWISH dietary laws.

Genesis 6,7, 9 etc we have the distinction of clean and unclean unimals with NO Jews at all.

In Isaiah 66 it is "mankind" that is subject to fire and brimstone judgment at the end of the world for "eating mice, swines flesh..." and worship of false gods.

Eating rats and diseased flesh - as Lev 11 says -- is "Abomination"

1 Cor 6 tells NT Christians not to destroy their bodies.

James 2 says that the rule for Christians has to do with "He who said"

Peter insists in Acts 10 that to that very day he had not been eating rats or diseased flesh.

There is not one example of any Christian in the NT eating rats or diseased flesh not even diseased beef.

8 hours ago, Yowm said:

You call this pertinent?

So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them." (Gen 6:7)

 Yes because I am referencing chapter 6 and chapter 7 not Gen 6:7.

Chapter 6 Noah is told to take animals with him into the ark. Noah is neither Jew nor gentile. He is before all of that.

Chapter 7

Then the Lord said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time. ² You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female;

Eating just one of the unclean animals would result in "instant extinction" after the flood. The clean animals were for food and for sacrifices among other things.

Chapter 8

²⁰ Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

So then the point that you can only have the clean/unclean distinction in the context of Jews in the Bible - is disproven. And in chapter 8 Noah's family is now "all mankind" - and still observing the distinction between clean and unclean animals. Thus as we see in Lev 11 no eating rats or diseased beef.

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As well as clean animals. The point is idolatry...

"He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations; (Isa 66:3)

Idolatry is condemned but in the contrast it is NOT "he who sacrifices snakes like the one who sacrifices rats". The contrast is not between two sins - but between obedience "sacrificing clean animals only" as we see in Genesis 8... vs open rebellion and God is saying that the act of obedience is condemned just as if it were outright abomination.  The details do matter.

 

Isaiah 66

He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.

Offers grain, and "burns incense" are not acts of evil - the point is to contrast good with evil and then to say that even the good is negated if they are in rebellion - negated as if it were outright evil.

¹⁵ For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
¹⁶ For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

¹⁷ “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

 

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That is not to defile the body sexually...

"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
(1Co 6:13-15)

I pointed to both 1 Cor 3 and 1 Cor 6 to illustrate the point.

1 Cor 3 : ¹⁶ Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? ¹⁷ If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

What we do with our body - matters to God.

1 Cor 6: ¹⁵ Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! ¹⁶ Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”  

[BobRyan]

7 hours ago, Yowm said:

I said the conversation was silly, I didn't say what Ryan said was silly.

IOW, The drawing out and challenges and counter challenges is silly. Here Jesus gave His life on the cross and we are squabbling over dietary laws? This is like straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

Colossians 2:16-17 KJV
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days : [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Col 2 is about "commandments of men" and the error of judging others also pointed out pre-cross in Matthew 7.

²⁰ Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— ²¹ “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” ²² which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

[Guest shiloh357]

12 minutes ago, BobRyan said:

Col 2 is about "commandments of men" and the error of judging others also pointed out pre-cross in Matthew 7.

²⁰ Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— ²¹ “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” ²² which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

So, it's okay to judge Christians who eat pork.

[Absolem]

9 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Yes...what would Jesus do?

Jesus already explained what defiles. Judge someone based off laws that have been fulfilled by the cross? Why, so you can boast in the flesh? This argument is ridiculous.