Speaking in tongues is that ,real or alive today ?

[Leon C. Essex]

7 hours ago, Giller said:

Act 2:38-39
(38)  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(39)  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Tongues are for all, as many as the Lord shall call !!!!!!!

What is this gift of the Holy Ghost?

Just for clarification, are you saying that your understanding of this snippet of scripture is that "the gift of the Holy Ghost" is not the Holy Ghost himself, but specifically that he would impart a particular gift (tongues) to everyone who was called? And - using your own distinction regarding "other" and "unknown" tongues, would this be the former (where people heard the disciples in known languages) or the latter "unknown tongues" - which was a gift which was apparently also unknown to Peter and the church at that time?

[Leon C. Essex]

Thank you for the clarification, Giller.

I don't personally think that Acts 2:38-39 can be reasonably construed as anything other than (or in excess of) a promise that the Holy Spirit will be received by those meeting the conditions laid down by Peter. There is no specific suggestion about tongues of any description, and - while numerous gifts of the Spirit are mentioned subsequently - it would seem from Paul's writings that none of them were universally bestowed.

As for Acts 10, I would fully expect those Gentile converts to manifest something to which Peter could immediately relate: both the context and Peter's character would seem to demand it.  Further, that it would appear unlikely that their tongues were of the 'gibberish' type, as you put it. Lacking in any linguistic composition or cadence - and bereft of any accepted indicators of speech - such a display would hardly compel Peter to believe he was witnessing a re-run of Pentecost.

You mention 'fake' tongues. I agree that this is common. Much of it is merely learned behaviour - unsurprising when people freely speak in tongues in front of seekers - lay hands on them - and then tell them to speak out the first thing that enters their minds. Where we might disagree, is that I suspect that the belief that every Christian should speak in tongues is - in large part - responsible for this practice.

58 minutes ago, Giller said:

I have went to a meeting one time to were the preacher was speaking in tongues, but it was not tongues that were of God, you felt the evil in it, there was no humbleness, it was just evil.

Yes, I can well believe this. We may make a judgment about such people based on discernment, or perhaps by comparing what they say with our own diligent study of scripture. But I would suggest the defining characteristic of those who have infiltrated the body of Christ for their own ends, is always a lack of humility.

I was interested to read of your own experiences generally, though it was the remark about the preacher which really resonated. But going back to the subject in hand, I honestly can't see that scripture could substantiate a claim that all believers can (or should) speak in tongues. It is a conjectural extrapolation at best - an assumption, rather than an inescapable conclusion drawn from an evidential base. Yes, there were people at Pentecost who heard the disciples in their own languages. There was the incident in Acts 10, but - even taken together - they really don't make a case for universal glossolalia in the body of Christ.

[Omegaman 3.0]

11 hours ago, JohnD said:

Walter Martin did a study into the biblical "speaking in tongues" doctrine.

He also spoke very eloquenty to the topic of Spiritual gifts (in general) in existence today, with not only scriptural evidence, but real world examples that were very impressive, unless of course one is so convinced that gifting cannot be true, that they will not consider the evidence and just assume that people like Dr. Martin, are liars.

[hmbld]

On November 14, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Ezra said:

 The reason you never saw any manifestation is because that gift is no longer operative. "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease."

 

1 Cor 13:8-10  

 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

Doesn't verse 10 tell us when these gifts are done away with?

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, hmbld said:

Doesn't verse 10 tell us when these gifts are done away with?

Yes it does. "That which is perfect" = "That which is COMPLETE".

And in the context of prophesies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge, it can only mean one thing -- the complete Bible.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται.

Strong's Concordance (5046)

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect

Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

[Leon C. Essex]

43 minutes ago, Ezra said:

2 hours ago, hmbld said:

Doesn't verse 10 tell us when these gifts are done away with?

Yes it does. "That which is perfect" = "That which is COMPLETE".

And in the context of prophesies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge, it can only mean one thing -- the complete Bible.

I hold no brief for the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, being - as it is - so irredeemably compromised by legions of false teachers, prosperity scammers and fake manifestations. There is such a lack of discernment in some quarters, that it is difficult to believe the Holy Spirit has led them into any truth, let alone 'all truth'. Earlier, I described the position that all Christians could or should speak in tongues as "a conjectural extrapolation at best - an assumption, rather than an inescapable conclusion drawn from an evidential base."  I would say precisely the same about the idea that Paul was referring to the completion of the canon of scripture when he wrote of the perfect which was to come.  I find it difficult to imagine that he was saying that the cessation of gifts would be triggered by himself and a few others finishing writing their letters....or that he would even think of those writings as the 'perfect' he was anticipating.  Moreover, how exactly would the completing of these epistles enable Paul to "see face to face"? By what mechanism would those letters enable him to fully know, even as he is known? The truth is - even now with the inspired word of God - none of us 'fully know', do we? I am not aware of any other scripture which can be said to seriously support this concept - something, which if true, would be of huge import to the church. As it is, we have an interpretation of a single verse - an interpretation which would appear to be brought into question even by its own immediate context.

[hmbld]

6 minutes ago, Leon C. Essex said:

I hold no brief for the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, being - as it is - so irredeemably compromised by legions of false teachers, prosperity scammers and fake manifestations. There is such a lack of discernment in some quarters, that it is difficult to believe the Holy Spirit has led them into any truth, let alone 'all truth'. Earlier, I described the position that all Christians could or should speak in tongues as "a conjectural extrapolation at best - an assumption, rather than an inescapable conclusion drawn from an evidential base."  I would say precisely the same about the idea that Paul was referring to the completion of the canon of scripture when he wrote of the perfect which was to come.  I find it difficult to imagine that he was saying that the cessation of gifts would be triggered by himself and a few others finishing writing their letters....or that he would even think of those writings as the 'perfect' he was anticipating.  Moreover, how exactly would the completing of these epistles enable Paul to "see face to face"? By what mechanism would those letters enable him to fully know, even as he is known? The truth is - even now with the inspired word of God - none of us 'fully know', do we? I am not aware of any other scripture which can be said to seriously support this concept - something, which if true, would be of huge import to the church. As it is, we have an interpretation of a single verse - an interpretation which would appear to be brought into question even by its own immediate context.

Well, I agree with you here, and knowing Ezra has much knowledge, I am trying to understand how it could be reasoned that complete means the letters written or the bible.  I came to a much different conclusion, as I know of only one thing coming that is perfect.  Anyway, I checked several commentaries, not that I hold commentaries as absolute truth, but they sometimes help me understand, and I did not find any stating it could only mean the bible either.  And also, no, the bible does not say all could or should speak in tongues.  

[enoob57]

Well like most areas of Scripture one must study to show approved... one Scripture to support Ezra's understanding would be that the Scriptures are able to make one perfect

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

With the great seal set upon the Scripture of Revelation the last book written 90's AD one may say after ->the perfect is here due to the ability to make perfect...
Love, Steven

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Leon C. Essex said:

Moreover, how exactly would the completing of these epistles enable Paul to "see face to face"?

As you well know, Scripture is not a textbook, and Paul's epistles went from topic to topic seamlessly.  There were no verse or chapter divisions either in the original text.  So let's take a fresh look at this passage as though everything was one continuous text.

So if we took 1 Cor 13:8-10 as one topic, and 1 Cor 13:11-12 as a separate topic, there is perfect harmony.  In the first section Paul speaks of the completion of of the Scriptures ("that which is complete") and in the second section he speaks of a perfect understanding of God and Christ ("shall I know even as I am known") which is now incomplete through Scripture alone and requires face to face communication.

The real issue is that out of about 20 spiritual gifts, Paul speaks of the cessation of three specific gifts, and all of them are related to Divine inspiration.  The knowledge he mentions cannot be ordinary knowledge derived from reading the Bible, but the supernatural knowlede given to the apostles (as Paul mentions a few times in his epistles). Why would these gifts cease?  Because they were no longer necessary.  When would they cease? After the book of Revelation had been completed.

[StanJ]

3 hours ago, Leon C. Essex said:

I hold no brief for the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, being - as it is - so irredeemably compromised by legions of false teachers, prosperity scammers and fake manifestations. There is such a lack of discernment in some quarters, that it is difficult to believe the Holy Spirit has led them into any truth, let alone 'all truth'. Earlier, I described the position that all Christians could or should speak in tongues as "a conjectural extrapolation at best - an assumption, rather than an inescapable conclusion drawn from an evidential base."  I would say precisely the same about the idea that Paul was referring to the completion of the canon of scripture when he wrote of the perfect which was to come.  I find it difficult to imagine that he was saying that the cessation of gifts would be triggered by himself and a few others finishing writing their letters....or that he would even think of those writings as the 'perfect' he was anticipating.  Moreover, how exactly would the completing of these epistles enable Paul to "see face to face"? By what mechanism would those letters enable him to fully know, even as he is known? The truth is - even now with the inspired word of God - none of us 'fully know', do we? I am not aware of any other scripture which can be said to seriously support this concept - something, which if true, would be of huge import to the church. As it is, we have an interpretation of a single verse - an interpretation which would appear to be brought into question even by its own immediate context.

What you are stating here is analogous to saying that the majority of an iceberg is what you see and that is not the case. The World does not care about Christians who do it right, the World only cares about Christians who do it wrong and it's so funny how the world is always telling Christians they do it wrong even though they have no idea how to do it right.  Also, FYI, the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements are not synonymous with one another, they are two different movements, the former was born out of the Roman Catholic's Duquesne University in the late 1960s, and the latter was born out of Azusa Street in 1906 from the Methodist Holiness movement.

Paul was speaking about the return of Jesus Christ not about the completion of the Bible as we know it.  His writings in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 are paramount in understanding how the Holy Spirit functions in our lives and in the corporate life of the church. There is no scriptural basis whatsoever that supports the cessation of the gifts identified in Paul's writings and in fact are set as a spiritual precedent five times in the book of Acts.

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by StanJ