Last Daze Posted January 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2016 11 hours ago, unworthydude said: If they don't want to inherit God's blessings then they will inherit the Devil's reward. Anybody who goes to hell inherits the guilt of 'all who have been slain' on the earth by the very fact that they all go to the same place. It's only Israel's sin that is being focused in scripture. That was a really good explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to explain the "why" and I agree with a lot of it. The statement above seems a bit out of sorts though to me. I see the description "all who have been slain on the earth" as broadening the scope of the definition of "Babylon" rather than something people are guilty of by association. The guilt of righteous blood is on Jerusalem as Jesus states. The description of Babylon in Rev 18 also includes the blood of everyone who has been slain. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth. Revelation 18:24 I read that verse where the righteous blood is a "subset" of Babylon, a subset whose guilt falls on Jerusalem for the reasons you mentioned. Babylon also encompasses the blood of all who have been slain, an additional group. And on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Revelation 17:5 All unfaithfulness and all abominations of the earth have come forth from Babylon. She is the mother of it. I can only see the influence of Satan's kingdom among men as fitting the bill. The start of unfaithfulness and abominations long preceded the spiritual leaders of Jerusalem. While the spiritual leaders of Jerusalem who crucified Jesus are are a part of Babylon, they don't make up the whole of Babylon. At least according to how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Davida said: I was just disgusted how he talks about Jesus , he is "wise in his own eyes" he is a tool for Satan, I can discern this now, of course couldn't until I got saved. Sometimes it's better to look in a mirror and be concerned with our own selves than with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 On 28/11/2015 at 3:17 PM, Spock said: made a lot of sense when I read it about a year ago and explained how the 10 radical Islamic countries will "hate" Mecca (Saudi Arabia) and turn on it. In addition, have you ever wondered why all that oil (wine) happens to located under the Islamic nations land? Coincidence? I don't think so. The Beast = 10 Radical Islamic Nations who will have power for a short time. The Harlot rides this beast, but shortly, the beast will finally have enough of the harlot and say bye bye. (I wonder if this causes the Bushes, Clintons, and Obamas to shed a tear!) Scraping the very bottom of the barrel, to bring up this lowest and most stupid ignoramous, of this mad age . I feel dirty now having glanced at this rubbish . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 15 hours ago, thereselittleflower said: How is linking to a New Ager helping anything? Shows that some will stop at nothing to smere . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2016 10 minutes ago, Thallasa said: Shows that some will stop at nothing to smere . I don't think he's trying to smear - I just don't understand the value of it. I mean if we're going to look at what new agers say, then why not look at what Baba Venga, who was an Orthodox Christian, blinded from childhood when she began to see the future with 80% accuracy, would have to say too - she predicted the rise of ISIS and the threat to europe (conquering it), specifically THIS year, and their take over of Rome in the 2040's setting up their caliphate, which would mean this pope isn't what deepak chopra thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I am thinking it is the Statue of Liberty (female ), and all that she, represents . Free Masonry etc. All ,who while pretending to be for Christ , are following in their every day lives what they represent . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: I don't think he's trying to smear - I just don't understand the value of it. I mean if we're going to look at what new agers say, then why not look at what Baba Venga, who was an Orthodox Christian, blinded from childhood when she began to see the future with 80% accuracy, would have to say too - she predicted the rise of ISIS and the threat to europe (conquering it), specifically THIS year, and their take over of Rome in the 2040's setting up their caliphate, which would mean this pope isn't what deepak chopra thinks. I know about this particular one who is a terrible fraud . I taught and mixed with Indian people and among the well educated ,he is truly considered a sell out . I do know what I am talking about in regard to this one ,even if I don't know how to spell smear . I am not a linguist ,but am being subjected to four languages just now ,and mixing them up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 10, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,200 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,927 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Thallasa said: Scraping the very bottom of the barrel, to bring up this lowest and most stupid ignoramous, of this mad age . I feel dirty now having glanced at this rubbish . That's way overboard. .... downright tacky.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 10, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Last Daze said: That was a really good explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to explain the "why" and I agree with a lot of it. The statement above seems a bit out of sorts though to me. I see the description "all who have been slain on the earth" as broadening the scope of the definition of "Babylon" rather than something people are guilty of by association. The guilt of righteous blood is on Jerusalem as Jesus states. The description of Babylon in Rev 18 also includes the blood of everyone who has been slain. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth. Revelation 18:24 I read that verse where the righteous blood is a "subset" of Babylon, a subset whose guilt falls on Jerusalem for the reasons you mentioned. Babylon also encompasses the blood of all who have been slain, an additional group. And on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Revelation 17:5 All unfaithfulness and all abominations of the earth have come forth from Babylon. She is the mother of it. I can only see the influence of Satan's kingdom among men as fitting the bill. The start of unfaithfulness and abominations long preceded the spiritual leaders of Jerusalem. While the spiritual leaders of Jerusalem who crucified Jesus are are a part of Babylon, they don't make up the whole of Babylon. At least according to how I see it. Yeah, I'm glad you appreciated it. I like to work out how I see things. It helps me to see where my arguments are weak and where I have to reconsider. I don't want to be a teacher but a learner. Sometimes I'll argue a point to the death only to realize that my arguments were weak and that I need to give them up. Especially with eschatology. I only want to believe the truth and it takes negating the weak arguments by reasoning together to expose the error. So again, thanks for the dialogue! So, I'll try and give a stab at it again. You've made some great arguments. In trying to find an answer as to why Israel would be guilty of 'all the slain' or how anybody could be guilty of "all the slain" is difficult but I think the best answer is in seeing that the law was a whole unit to be kept. This biblical doctrine of imputation of legal culpability a.k.a., sin, being transferred to another person can also be found in the fall of Adam into Satan's kingdom, our representative (Romans 5) and in Christ bearing the sin of others but also imputing righteousness to others (2Co 5:21). Sins committed under the law fall into the larger category of covenant. The law was even called the "words of the covenant". Exo_34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. Israel being found guilty of all sin is another way saying that they are not under Jesus but under Satan as children. It's positional language. This is especially seen in how Jesus would talk to the Jews and attribute to them a Satanic heritage. This is the same classification that we see with Babylon. The only reason Israel is the mother is that she is the first to be judged. Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 1Pe_4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? I don't think Babylon, the mother, can be the cause of all sin. The word mother does connote children and the origin of sin but I think it still is within the greater legal framework of having broken the covenant. The Jews were not only guilty but influenced others to be guilty. Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. This can be explained, not by the Jews having spawned all evil but by how sin operates in general. Sinners who love sin, love to sin with others. Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Rather, I see the 'mother' language as a emphasis of culpability. Much like Paul saying: 1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. The role of Israel as a mother is seen in Galatians where she bears this categorical emphasis. You can see here how there is another mother from above . The heavenly Jerusalem is here contrasted to another mother who is one of bondage. What proves my argument is the fact the the children are heirs of either of these two mothers as legal systems of guilt or innocence, bondage or freedom. Gal 4:25-31 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. (28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. The bondage of sin is the legal covenant of Moses. Gal_3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. Gal_3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. We have to keep in mind that this mother of all abominations is going to be judged just as all other nations are going to be judged too. Jer_46:28 Fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the LORD, for I am with you. I will make a full end of all the nations to which I have driven you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished." The sins of Israel are just at the top of the chopping block. The nations will see the judgement of God on Israel first and by this they will know God and many will saved before He judges their own nations. Eze 39:21-26 "And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them. (22) The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward. (23) And the nations shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity, because they dealt so treacherously with me that I hid my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they all fell by the sword. (24) I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their transgressions, and hid my face from them. (25) "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name. (26) They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid, Edited January 11, 2016 by unworthydude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted January 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2016 8 hours ago, Davida said: 5 hours ago, unworthydude said: Yeah, I'm glad you appreciated it. I like to flesh out how I see things. It helps me to see where my arguments are weak and where I have to reconsider. I don't want to be a teacher but a learner. Sometimes I'll argue a point to the death only to realize that my arguments were weak and that I need to give them up. I only want to believe the truth and it takes negating the weak arguments by reasoning together to expose the error. So, again, thanks for the dialogue. So, I'll try and give a stab at it again. You've made some great arguments. In trying to find an answer as to why Israel would be guilty of 'all the slain' or how anybody could be guilty of "all the slain" is difficult but I think the best answer is in seeing that the law was a whole unit to be kept. This biblical doctrine of imputation of lethal culpability or sin being transferred to another person can also be found in the fall of Adam into Satan's kingdom, our representative (Romans 5) and in Christ bearing the sin of others but also imputing righteousness to others (2Co 5:21). Sins committed under the law fall into a whole level of legal transference of guilt. The law was even called the "words of the covenant". Exo_34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. Israel being found guilty of all sin is another way saying that they are not under Jesus but under Satan as children. It's positional language. This is especially seen in how Jesus would talk to the Jews and attribute to them a Satanic heritage. This is the same classification that we see with Babylon. The only reason Israel is the mother is that she is the first to be judged. Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 1Pe_4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? I don't think she can be the cause of all sin. The word mother does connote children and the origin of sin but I think it still is within the greater legal framework of law. The Jews not only were guilty but influenced others to be guilty. Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. This can be explained by sin in general. Sinners who love sin, love to sin with others. Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Rather, I see the mother language as a emphasis of culpability within the legal guilt. Much like Paul saying: 1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. The role of Israel as a mother is seen in Galatians where she bears this categorical emphasis. You can see here how there is another mothe from above . The heavenly Jerusalem is here contrasted to another mother who is one of bondage. What proves my argument is the fact the the children are heirs of either of these two mothers as legal systems of guilt or innocence. bondage or freedom. Gal 4:25-31 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. (28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. The bondage of sin is the legal covenant of Moses. Gal_3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. Gal_3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. We have to keep in mind that this mother of all abominations is being judged but all other nations are going to be judged too. Jer_46:28 Fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the LORD, for I am with you. I will make a full end of all the nations to which I have driven you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished." The sins of Israel are just at the top of the chopping block. The nations will see the judgement of God on Israel first and by this they will know God and many will saved before He judges their own nations. Eze 39:21-26 "And I will set my glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them. (22) The house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God, from that day forward. (23) And the nations shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity, because they dealt so treacherously with me that I hid my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they all fell by the sword. (24) I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their transgressions, and hid my face from them. (25) "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name. (26) They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid, As a separate side note, I find it interesting that some of the people of Israel even wanted the blood of Christ to be upon them. Geez. How crazy is that? Mat_27:25 And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" You are so not here as a believer in Christ but to make slanders against the Body of Christ. If you read that passage in context it becomes clear that the people meant they wanted His death; they weren't actually asking for Jesus' blood to be put on them. Mat_27 22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. 23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. 24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. 26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts