Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[thereselittleflower]

19 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I don't need to.   Prayer in its various forms is worship in the Bible and is demonstrated as such.   I don't have a verse that says specifically what you want me to produce, but anyone who is honest about prayer in the Bible knows that prayer is a facet of worship.   Evidently, honesty is not part of your skill set.

I'm sorry Shilo, but if you're going to make the claim that all prayer is worship, you will need to back up that claim from the scriptures.   And personally attacking people and their character does not substitute for backing up your claim from scripture.

5 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

You expect others to quote you chapter and verse to support what they say yet you refuse to be held to the same standard. 

Interesting

 

I'm scratching my head at that one too honestly.

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

6 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

You claimed that those In heaven are no longer part of the body of Chirst. I asked you to back up that claim with scripture. 

I could go back and use the quote feature, but I'll just let you scroll up and verify for yourself. 

 

First of all, to the original point about those in heaven not being part of the Body of Christ, I used the Scripture YOU provided as the evidence.   I pointed to the fact that Paul's analogy of "the Body of Christ"  was addressed to Christians on earth and was meant to address the ministry roles of individual believers.   Paul's point was that everyone's role is important even if it appears to be insignificant.   The guy who mows the church lawn has a part that is just as important as the Pastor, or the Deacon.

The passage that speaks to the Body of Christ never locates the Body of Christ anywhere but on earth.   I addressed the fact that human relationships change.   To illustrate the point I addressed the change that occurs in the marriage covenant when a person dies.   I was drawing on Jesus' words about marriage in Matt. 22:30 where Jesus says that people in heaven are not married.    So if the marriage covenant, God first and most important institution is only applicable to people on earth, how much more so would that apply to a simple ministry analogy???   Paul is using the Body of Christ's analogy to make a point about the earthly relationship of believers.   He is not addressing those who are in heaven.  
 

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YOU claim those in heaven are no longer members of the body of Christ. This is YOUR claim, so where in scripture do you get this from. 

You get Defensive and resort to attacking me personally by saying I don't have a clue etc etc. You also like to hold others to standards that you refuse to adhere to. 

 

Again, I have addressed it using the verses YOU provided and so the onus is not on me to  come up with separate Scriptures.   I live by the standards  I erect.   What YOU need to provide is a passage that locates the Body of Christ in Heaven.   Good luck.
 

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It appears to me that you are reading your theology into scripture.

where does scripture support your personal theology that those in heaven are removed from the body of Christ. 

 

I have provided all of the necessary support that anyone with any theological aptitude could understand.  I am not reading anything into Scripture at all.   I just refuse to be the RCC's intellectual puppet.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

I'm sorry Shilo, but if you're going to make the claim that all prayer is worship, you will need to back up that claim from the scriptures.   And personally attacking people and their character does not substitute for backing up your claim from scripture.

 

 

 

 

No, you need to demonstrate from Scripture one place where prayer to God (supplication, intercession, praise, confession of sin, etc)  is not considered an act of worship.

Well pointing out that you are not really honest about this is true, whether you can face up to  it or not.    You have to resort to the most convoluted and nonsensical logic, because being a Catholic Apologist is more important to you than truth.   If you were a Christian, you would see how deranged RCC theology is.

[hmbld]

I can't think of a time that prayer is not worship, but that point is a diversion. The examples of prayers to saints above is the question. What scripture supports praying to dead people(which is made into another diversion). Where does it say dead people have some higher class of favor in Gods eyes than a Christian?   I have never "prayed" to a person, though some may use the word in a definition different than how I understand it. 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, hmbld said:

I can't think of a time that prayer is not worship, but that point is a diversion. The examples of prayers to saints above is the question. What scripture supports praying to dead people(which is made into another diversion). Where does it say dead people have some higher class of favor in Gods eyes than a Christian?   I have never "prayed" to a person, though some may use the word in a definition different than how I understand it. 

The word "pray"  is used in old English to mean, "ask."  That is an English, secular use of the word "pray."  "Pray tell, how many people will be at the party?"   So, littleflower, in the past, has drawn on that secular word usage to argue that not all "prayer"  is worship.   The problem is that the Bible never uses prayer to God as anything but an act or facet of worship.  

 

[hmbld]

10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The word "pray"  is used in old English to mean, "ask."  That is an English, secular use of the word "pray."  "Pray tell, how many people will be at the party?"   So, littleflower, in the past, has drawn on that secular word usage to argue that not all "prayer"  is worship.   The problem is that the Bible never uses prayer to God as anything but an act or facet of worship.  

 

Right, the pray tell example is what I meant, thank you. We don't use it that way now as far as I know. I still see the prayer examples given as being the main point in the op. 

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Right, the pray tell example is what I meant, thank you. We don't use it that way now as far as I know. I still see the prayer examples given as being the main point in the op. 

Yes, when you look at the actual text of Catholic prayers to the saints, calling on them for the things that we are supposed to depend on God for, it is really telling.   It proves that they are worshipping the saints, instead of God.    The idea of worship from an everyday practical standpoint means that I depend on the object of worship for my needs.

We pray to God for help, strength, guidance, comfort.  We depend on him for those things.   If we are asking the "saints" to provide those things, then we are in effect, worshipping them.    That is inescapable logic.     what's being done is idolatry.   Praying to saints is a modern example of Idolatry.

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2015‎ ‎07‎:‎24‎:‎16, gdemoss said:

There are those who teach that we can and should pray to Mary or to one of the saints. They do so earnestly seeking to better your life by sharing with you the practices they have that they believe enhance their christian experience.  Let them alone.  Neither condemn nor confirm the practice but do feel sorry for anyone who believes they can not go at a minimum unto Christ who is the mediator between God and man.  For Christ himself said the day was coming when we would no longer need to go through him but straight to the father rather. Pity to the poor soul that still needs yet some weak and beggarly mediator to even get their  request before Christ for if they are still yet estranged from Christ then they are in a desolate place indeed!  Pray for such that they might  be brought unto Christ and one day directly answered by God the Father without need of a mediator.  The day is  coming when he shall dwell amongst us as one of us.  Everyone having been brought to the fullness of the stature in Christ  Jesus without need of pastors and teachers even.  Praise God for that day!

Thank you for this clear and enlightened exposition through the Holy Spirit ; this is too, what I have been led to believe .That the persons feeling the need to 'pray ' through 'saints', have not yet arrived in the place where they feel they can go   directly to the Father , and the best thing is not to berate them ,but to pray directly to God for them  . May I add, that having grown up in the  R.C.C. ,as did ALL my family for générations ,I believe that we are 'lost' to this Church because of this kind of practice ,and lack of knowlege of God ,through lack of direct bible study .

If the Church had changed on these two things, and papal infallibility , I would have returned ,as there is much good there   still ,,from really  good people .

[Guest Thallasa]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, you need to demonstrate from Scripture one place where prayer to God (supplication, intercession, praise, confession of sin, etc)  is not considered an act of worship.

Well pointing out that you are not really honest about this is true, whether you can face up to  it or not.    You have to resort to the most convoluted and nonsensical logic, because being a Catholic Apologist is more important to you than truth.   If you were a Christian, you would see how deranged RCC theology is.

Not ALL R.C.C. theology ,and you have lessons to learn about how to be a christian in every day life from most  Catholics . No one person ,nor even one Church has all the truth  .

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Thallasa said:

Not ALL R.C.C. theology ,and you have lessons to learn about how to be a christian in every day life from most  Catholics . No one person ,nor even one Church has all the truth  .

I have nothing to learn from those who belong to an apostate, hell-bound "church."