Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[thereselittleflower]

9 minutes ago, Davida said:

Please stop pushing praying to the Saints when it is unbiblical and the opposite of what the Original Poster was seeking --  This isn't an opportunity for you to try  to peddle what GOD says is an Abomination.

Davida,  I am pointing out your errors in fact and logic.   That is not pushing anything.   Either we are free to speak out when someone's logic and facts are wrong or we aren't.  

The OP is entitled to an accurate portrayal of history on this subject. 

Please stop with the false accusations  and attempted censorship.  

She goes to a Protestant Church which disagrees with you on this subject.   Just because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong and you right.  And it doesn't mean they don't speak for God and you do.

 

 

[gdemoss]

There are those who teach that we can and should pray to Mary or to one of the saints. They do so earnestly seeking to better your life by sharing with you the practices they have that they believe enhance their christian experience.  Let them alone.  Neither condemn nor confirm the practice but do feel sorry for anyone who believes they can not go at a minimum unto Christ who is the mediator between God and man.  For Christ himself said the day was coming when we would no longer need to go through him but straight to the father rather. Pity to the poor soul that still needs yet some weak and beggarly mediator to even get their  request before Christ for if they are still yet estranged from Christ then they are in a desolate place indeed!  Pray for such that they might  be brought unto Christ and one day directly answered by God the Father without need of a mediator.  The day is  coming when he shall dwell amongst us as one of us.  Everyone having been brought to the fullness of the stature in Christ  Jesus without need of pastors and teachers even.  Praise God for that day!

[thereselittleflower]

4 hours ago, gdemoss said:

There are those who teach that we can and should pray to Mary or to one of the saints. They do so earnestly seeking to better your life by sharing with you the practices they have that they believe enhance their christian experience.  Let them alone.  Neither condemn nor confirm the practice but do feel sorry for anyone who believes they can not go at a minimum unto Christ who is the mediator between God and man.  For Christ himself said the day was coming when we would no longer need to go through him but straight to the father rather. Pity to the poor soul that still needs yet some weak and beggarly mediator to even get their  request before Christ for if they are still yet estranged from Christ then they are in a desolate place indeed!  Pray for such that they might  be brought unto Christ and one day directly answered by God the Father without need of a mediator.  The day is  coming when he shall dwell amongst us as one of us.  Everyone having been brought to the fullness of the stature in Christ  Jesus without need of pastors and teachers even.  Praise God for that day!

Do you then never ask anyone to pray for you ever?    Aren't you asking some week and beggarly mediator for help when you ask someone to pray for you?

Do you realize that those who agree with the OP's PROTESTANT Church also go to Christ directly themselves as well?

I don't understand this black and white, all or nothing mentality that so prevades these discussions.  It is as if you all believe that if christians, such as the OP's PROTESTANT Church, believe it is ok to pray to the saints, that they don't believe it's ok to pray directly to Christ as well.  It is as if you all think that they believe the can't go to Christ themselves as well.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is not an either/or - it is a both/and.

How is it reasonable to engage in such extremes in thinking in this and other threads?  It leaves me scratching my head.

[gdemoss]

5 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

Do you then never ask anyone to pray for you ever?    Aren't you asking some week and beggarly mediator for help when you ask someone to pray for you?

Do you realize that those who agree with the OP's PROTESTANT Church also go to Christ directly themselves as well?

I don't understand this black and white, all or nothing mentality that so prevades these discussions.  It is as if you all believe that if christians, such as the OP's PROTESTANT Church, believe it is ok to pray to the saints, that they don't believe it's ok to pray directly to Christ as well.  It is as if you all think that they believe the can't go to Christ themselves as well.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is not an either/or - it is a both/and.

How is it reasonable to engage in such extremes in thinking in this and other threads?  It leaves me scratching my head.

You have been explained many times over of the error you proclaim and I don't expect you to receive correction from me either.  Pray to whomever you believe God would have you to pray.  Believe whatever you will but don't approach me with your heretical veiws seeking to pull me from Christ or even God the Father to follow the logic of men that chase after whims of praying to those who have passed on before.  Your carnal logic causes you to err.  I will stay with direct communion in prayer unto Christ alone.

[enoob57]

8 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

 

  Just because the earliest document dates from the 3rd century does not mean that this is when it started. 

By the time of the 3rd century, everywhere christians prayed to the saints - christians universally prayed to the saints.  

The absence of the Early Church Fathers denouncing prayers to the saints,  from the 1st century forward, is very strong evidence it had always been the practice of chrisitans BECAUSE of their behavior regarding any error or heresy.

This means it had been going on for a long time before we happen to have a document from the 3rd century.  Give archeology a bit longer and we will probably find them from the 1st century too.

 

 

This simply is building upon nothing and is like saying just because "it could be"/ scholarship is based upon facts
not assumptions... and yes when it is first seen in documentation is all we have to go on! The Scripture is clear
we have only One High Priest Only One Mediator between God and man >Christ Jesus< ... all else is heresy!

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2015‎ ‎8‎:‎28‎:‎12‎, layhoma said:

I have been attending this Church for several years.  I believed it's an Anglican based church. 99% of the praise & worship services I felt comfortable with except for the 1%. I tried to disregard this incident that happened about 3-4 times but I felt a great sense of unease on my last service. 

The preacher had a long sermon about praying to St Andrew ....etc Natually my mind was blocked. Suffice to say I'm a bible following Christian. I hope I don't offend any bros or sis who are catholic but I choose to believe that the only prayers I'm allowed to make are those directed to the Triune God. Trinity. It is extremely challenging for me to accept the concept of praying to a Saint so he could more effectively relay our prayers to the Almighty. That is the concept no ? 

I need your sharing and opinion on this subject. You don't have to reveal your denomination, it's irrelevant. This isn't a debate. I'm just here to seek enlightenment and whether my reaction is justified. Thanks

Praying to saints is pure paganism.   The RCC simply took old basilicas used for praying to pagan gods and employed the same kind of paganism but now they use "saints" instead of pagan deities, but it is all the same.   It's all part of Satan's plan.  It is not of God and God hates it.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

On December 5, 2015 at 9:28:12 AM, layhoma said:

I have been attending this Church for several years.  I believed it's an Anglican based church. 99% of the praise & worship services I felt comfortable with except for the 1%. I tried to disregard this incident that happened about 3-4 times but I felt a great sense of unease on my last service. 

The preacher had a long sermon about praying to St Andrew ....etc Natually my mind was blocked. Suffice to say I'm a bible following Christian. I hope I don't offend any bros or sis who are catholic but I choose to believe that the only prayers I'm allowed to make are those directed to the Triune God. Trinity. It is extremely challenging for me to accept the concept of praying to a Saint so he could more effectively relay our prayers to the Almighty. That is the concept no ? 

I need your sharing and opinion on this subject. You don't have to reveal your denomination, it's irrelevant. This isn't a debate. I'm just here to seek enlightenment and whether my reaction is justified. Thanks

I don't know your Church or what the preacher said. But this is a common issue. 

In Churches that pray to saints it is very important to understand what they are doing. 

The word pray means to ask or to petition. It does NOT mean worship. "Bible" Chistians have no problem asking others to pray for them. But wait!!! I thought you pray directly to God so why do you need to ask others to pray for you!?! That is a bit contradictory.  So generally they will admit that asking others to pray for them is okay.  It's also scriptural.

It always boils down to asking the dead to pray for us. Most often the reason giving is the dead can't hear us. Well scripture says differently:

Revelation 5:8

8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; 

the saints here are the believers on earth. So the question is how are the 24 elders offering the  prayers of those on earth IF the "dead" can't hear our prayers.

Paul talks about how we are all part of the body of Christ. So when you die do you become separated from the body and no longer are aware of the rest. OR once you die and are perfected in heaven do you become more aware of the body, which includes those on earth.

We don't know how the Saints in heaven know our prayers. But we can see in scripture many examples where God has given his creatures (man) supernatural abilities. Such as raising people from the dead. I would think that all Christians would agree that no mere man would have that ability.

So at the end of the day, do you HAVE to ask the Saints to pray for you?? No, you don't. But James tells use that the prayers of a righteous man has great power and there is no one more righteous than those in Heaven

James 5:16

16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

 

[enoob57]

Let's keep the context shall we Rev 5:8 is the prayers of the saints to the Lamb kept by the 24 elders in golden bowls
by the will of God... nothing in context even suggest that the 24 elders even know the prayers! these prayers were directed
to The Lamb and He 'IS' keeping them as a sweet smelling savor to Himself!

The James passage is living people praying for one another to God and these prayers sanctioned by The Holy Spirit of
God are being kept in those golden bowls as sweet smelling savor to The Lamb ...

Twisting any of this to justify praying to saints is a perversion of the text...  love, Steven

[other one]

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Let's keep the context shall we Rev 5:8 is the prayers of the saints to the Lamb kept by the 24 elders in golden bowls
by the will of God... nothing in context even suggest that the 24 elders even know the prayers! these prayers were directed
to The Lamb and He 'IS' keeping them as a sweet smelling savor to Himself!

The James passage is living people praying for one another to God and these prayers sanctioned by The Holy Spirit of
God are being kept in those golden bowls as sweet smelling savor to The Lamb ...

Twisting any of this to justify praying to saints is a perversion of the text...  love, Steven

does that mean anyone doing that is a pervert?

[MorningGlory]

14 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

Davida,  I am pointing out your errors in fact and logic.   That is not pushing anything.   Either we are free to speak out when someone's logic and facts are wrong or we aren't.  

The OP is entitled to an accurate portrayal of history on this subject. 

Please stop with the false accusations  and attempted censorship.  

She goes to a Protestant Church which disagrees with you on this subject.   Just because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong and you right.  And it doesn't mean they don't speak for God and you do.

 

 

Well said, therese.  Regardless of the beliefs we hold we need to refrain from playing God or censor.  Everyone is entitled to speak and, if we disagree, we should present our FACTS as to WHY we disagree, instead of proclaiming someone else a sinner; that stuff only works for Jesus.