Preterism and the OT...proof.

[completedbeliever1]

On 12/10/2015, 4:40:09, AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken said:

Well, you seem pre-occupied. God bless you !

I was a little upset because my wife is still in the behavioural hospital.  There are just too many things to deal with in her life right now...Trying to keep her happy.

[completedbeliever1]

On 12/10/2015, 4:24:03, Ezra said:

Moses has nothing whatsoever to do with Preterism. If anything, the Torah reveals that the Jews will be scattered throughout the world, and will then be regathered again. And that is Futurism (Deut 28:64; 30:1-5).

First, I NEVER said that Moses has ANYTHING to do with Preterism...Why did you come to that conclusion?  How? Did you read ANYTHING that was past what you quoted?  You need to read before you make comments like that.

[Ezra]

13 hours ago, completedbeliever1 said:

First, I NEVER said that Moses has ANYTHING to do with Preterism...Why did you come to that conclusion?  How? Did you read ANYTHING that was past what you quoted?  You need to read before you make comments like that.

What's this?

First, we have Moses.  What did he do, and why did he mention that there would be a prophet like him, and that the people would need to listen to this prophet and follow him?  Because this prophet, Yashua, (Jesus), would do the same things that Moses did, and in the same time frame that Moses did them as well.  

Exodus 20 is the time of the giving of the law, and the actual Pentecost...

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Ezra said:

What's this?

First, we have Moses.  What did he do, and why did he mention that there would be a prophet like him, and that the people would need to listen to this prophet and follow him?  Because this prophet, Yashua, (Jesus), would do the same things that Moses did, and in the same time frame that Moses did them as well.  

Exodus 20 is the time of the giving of the law, and the actual Pentecost...

Hi Ezra. I think you are leaving out some very important things concerning Moses.

1st, Moses came to fulfill the covenant God had made with their father Abraham. The times appointed in a covenant made 430 years earlier concerning the 4th generation of his seed.

Passover, unleavened bread, redemption of the firstborn all were given in direct connection to the fulfilling of previous promises in covenant. Bringing them in to their inheritance, as heirs.

1  And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2  Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.
3  And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
4  This day came ye out in the month Abib.
5  And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month.
6  Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
7  Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
8  And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.
9  And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD’S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
10  Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.
11   And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, as he sware unto thee and to thy fathers, and shall give it thee,
12  That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD’S.
13  And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
14  And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:
15  And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.
16  And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.
 

Just an interesting note....

See any connection between these verses?

Ex 13:9 a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes:

Ex 13:16 a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes:

Rev 20:4 his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

Re 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 

1. A sign, a token Both Hebrew #0226

0226 תוא ‘owth oth

probably from 0225 (in the sense of appearing); ;{ SeeTWOT on 41 @@ "41a"} n f

AV-sign(s) 60, token(s) 14, ensign(s) 2, miracles 2, mark 1; 79

1) sign, signal
1a) a distinguishing mark
1b) banner
1c) remembrance
1d) miraculous sign
1e) omen
1f) warning
2) token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof 

Frontlets Hebrew #02903 between eyes

02903 הפטוט towphaphah to-faw-faw’ or (plural) תפטוט

from an unused root meaning to go around or bind; n f; {See TWOT on 804 @@ "804a"}

2. AV-frontlet 3; 3

1) bands, phylacteries, frontlets, marks 

 

Rev 20:4 Mark on forehead

3359 μετωπον metopon met’-o-pon

from 3326 and ops (the face); TDNT-4:635,591; {See TDNT 489} n n

AV-forehead 8; 8

1) the space between the eyes, the forehead 

 

[completedbeliever1]

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

What's this?

First, we have Moses.  What did he do, and why did he mention that there would be a prophet like him, and that the people would need to listen to this prophet and follow him?  Because this prophet, Yashua, (Jesus), would do the same things that Moses did, and in the same time frame that Moses did them as well.  

Exodus 20 is the time of the giving of the law, and the actual Pentecost...

Again, I never said Moses had anything to do with preterism...I said that BECAUSE of what Moses did, and because of OT passages, we have fulfillment in Yashua.  All the way to Joshua, FROM Moses.  I hope that you can understand what I mean this time because I never said Moses had anything to do with Preterism.  I said because of Moses, we see that all was fulfilled in Yashua, and Titus.  40 years. OT, 40 years NT.  Same events, different time periods. Preterism is the fulfillment of all things in 70 A.D.  Moses was not alive in 70 A.D.  You knew what I was saying, but like another guy I argued with who said I told him Yashua was alive in the time of Moses, it is just something people like to do, frustrate the issue at hand.  Moses/Yashua, Joshua/Titus.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, completedbeliever1 said:

 Preterism is the fulfillment of all things in 70 A.D.  

So if this is true, we should be living in the Millennium, with universal righteousness, peace, and prosperity (and no terrorists beheading innocents).  Since that is not the case, everything was NOT fulfilled in 70 AD.  And Moses was totally irrelevant to this thread, since the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant the day Christ died. Therefore the veil in the Temple was torn from top to bottom.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, completedbeliever1 said:

Again, I never said Moses had anything to do with preterism...I said that BECAUSE of what Moses did, and because of OT passages, we have fulfillment in Yashua.  All the way to Joshua, FROM Moses.  I hope that you can understand what I mean this time because I never said Moses had anything to do with Preterism.  I said because of Moses, we see that all was fulfilled in Yashua, and Titus.  40 years. OT, 40 years NT.  Same events, different time periods. Preterism is the fulfillment of all things in 70 A.D.  Moses was not alive in 70 A.D.  You knew what I was saying, but like another guy I argued with who said I told him Yashua was alive in the time of Moses, it is just something people like to do, frustrate the issue at hand.  Moses/Yashua, Joshua/Titus.

I would like to hear your views on Titus and his role in fulfilment. I think Simon ben Giora also can be a fulfilment for some prophecy as well. I noticed someone here posted a version of scripture which spoke of a statue, which the scripture actually uses image. Which can make a difference. As Jesus asked concerning a coin and the image placed upon it and it's superinscription. So rendering the Greek use for image to mean a statue, is not quite kosher IMO.

Lu 20:24  Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s. Both Simon Giora, and Simon Kochba minted coins with images, as well as their superinscription spoke of the redemption they would bring.
 

Edited December 12, 2015 by Joline

[WilliamL]

On 12/10/2015, 2:12:17, completedbeliever1 said:

Well, technically, I asked if you would like  me to read the scriptures for you, not to you.  But anyway...
Preterism is the true doctrine because of many things that I will put forth now.
First, we have Moses.  What did he do, and why did he mention that there would be a prophet like him, and that the people would need to listen to this prophet and follow him?  Because this prophet, Yashua, (Jesus), would do the same things that Moses did, and in the same time frame that Moses did them as well.  
In chapter 12 of Exodus, we have set forth the passover in Egypt.  (The death of the lamb of the first year, without blemish.) Although many scholars believe that Yashua ministered for 3 years, the truth of the matter is that his ministry was only ONE year.  And the proof of this is not the book of John, but the book of Exodus chapter 12.  IT HAD TO BE a lamb of the FIRST year.  Without blemish, (without sin).  
Exodus 13 is the sanctification of the first born son, the death. Yashua on the cross, and dies.
Exodus 14 is the burial.  Yashua is taken to the grave.
Exodus 15 is the resurrection. The song of Moses, and his sister Miriam, rejoicing over the death of the horse and its rider.  Yashua rises and meets Mary who rejoices. 
Exodus 16 is the Manna from heaven, and Quail.  This is the second passover, or the passover for those who were on a journey and could not make it back to Israel.  14th day of the second month.  This is the day that Yashua started his ministry.  He is the manna.
Exodus 17 is the water from the rock, and the battle against the Amalekites.  This is when Yashua was in the wilderness to battle the "devil".  Yashua did battle with the Amalekites, (spiritually) and won.  The Amalekites are the symbol of the carnal man, who needs to be defeated every generation.  But the carnal man CAN be defeated and that is by living a spiritual life.
Exodus 18 is Jethro, Zipporah, Gershom, and Eliazar coming to meet with Moses.  Jethro is the abundance of YAH.  Yashua was a stranger in a strange land, and YAH did help him to rise from the dead, and didnt allow him to see corruption.  
Exodus 19 is just days before Moses went up to the mountain.  This is Pentecost.  Yashua tells his disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the coming of the spirit, "...not many days from now...".  Then YAH showed his power to the people with thunder, and pillers of smoke, and fire on mount Sinai, but in the NT it is in the upper room.
Exodus 20 is the time of the giving of the law, and the actual Pentecost...
Of course these things are not in order, because Yashua was baptized on the same day that Moses finished the tabernacle and the glory of YAH filled it.  That was on the first day of the first month, Abib.  Then came his 40 days.
These are just a small example, and if read all the way to the time Joshua crosses Jericho, you will see some awesome things.  The fulfillment is From the passover of Yashua, all the way until Titus enters the land.  40 years, all things happen in both times. Moses/Yashua, Joshua/Titus.

I agree with much of this in the sense of types and shadows-- but there is no evidence at all in John 2:13ff. that the Passover at which Jesus began his ministry was a second Passover, far from it -- but the point is, so what? Preterism says all of the prophecies of the Book of Revelation have already been fulfilled. Which book was given by Jesus to John long after Jesus ascended into heaven. That book clearly talks about a great many things that have not yet come to pass, none of which you have addressed. For example, Jesus has in no way descended with armies from heaven to physically kill the nations gathered together against him, whereafter the birds shall eat their flesh.

[JohnD]

In the many years I have researched I found Preterism biblically wanting. The subject never ceased to infuriate someone in discussion or debate over its merits or its heresy.

I have found Preterism relying heavily on human rationale. Preterists appeal to that rationale as they claim instead to rely on scriptures. In fact, they cite a long list of scriptures which they spin using that human rationale as the basis for "proof" of Preterism rather than the scriptures themselves.

The verses that indicate something of prophetic significance is "near" or "at hand" or "soon" they interpret to mean any day now, or within the lifetimes of those in immediate company of the scripture passage. When asked "near" or "at hand" or "soon" according to whom? Preterists get testy. If the passage means "near" or "at hand" or "soon" according to God, then:

2 Peter 3:8 (AV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This sends Preterists into immediate damage control mode.

The OP demonstrated mannerisms typical of Preterists. Arrogant, obnoxious, presuming everyone is ignorant or misled who do not immediately jump on the Preterism bandwagon. They typically hold to replacement theology (that 70 CE was the Great Tribulation) and that God is through with the Jewish people. And they tend to spiritualize a lot of the meaning out of the scriptures they quote.

Matthew 24:21 (AV)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This cannot refer to 70 CE since the same thing happened in 586 BCE.

Full Preterists believe the second coming of Jesus already happened.

Partial Preterists cannot explain why they are not Full Preterists without using Dispensationalist arguments and interpretation of scripture.

And most Preterists I've experienced typically have a thankless antagonism towards the Church and the pastor who had a hand in bringing them to the saving grace in Christ.

Most Christian message boards either ban Full Preterism and restrict Partial Preterism to a single section of the board, or they ban Preterism altogether.

I had a former friend who pastored a reform Church in southern California who served with me in the trenches of counter-cult outreach and demonstrations at Mormon and Jehovah's witness rallies... turn on me over Preterism. He and a southern California radio talk show host ganged up on people like me on air until the radio station bounced them both off the airwaves.  I studied Preterism to see if there was something I missed when he tried to make a fool of me in his own Church challenging me to a debate before I had any tangible knowledge of Preterism one way or the other. At the time it simply did not seem to add up in my opinion and that was reason enough for him to attempt to sacrifice me and to successfully sacrifice our friendship. Still, I studied it to see if there were any truth to Preterism and I found none.

Preterism is heretical in that it relegates future catastrophic prophecies to past events that are either a prefiguring of the ultimate fulfillment or are not what the prophecies are referring to at all. This is in effect removing the prophetic "bridge out" warning signs as humanity races full speed towards the greatest chasm in history.

 

[WilliamL]

The origin of Preterism:

"The early Protestant theologians almost unanimously equated the papacy with the Antichrist, the Beast, and/or "Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, the great whore" of Revelation 17. ...

"Out of the Catholic response to the Reformation was born the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) in 1534. Out of the Jesuit schools, in turn, came a Catholic response to the Protestant interpretations of the prophecies. This response took two completely different forms. ...

"The second Catholic thesis, put forth by the Jesuit Luis de Alcazar in about 1614, is called Preterism. In this view, the Roman Emperor Nero was the Antichrist. The Book of Revelation refers to the past fall of the Jews and pagan Rome. The New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22 (which takes place after  the 1000 years) refers to the present, reigning, and holy Catholic Church."

Preterism derives from Catholicism, in its attempt to deflect attention away from being identified with the Great Whore Rome, "that great city having a kingdom [at the time John wrote this] over the kings of the earth," who had already become "drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." Rev. 17:18, 6