The 24 elders.

[Last Daze]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2015 at 8:44 AM, *Zion* said:

Who are the 24 elders?  Are they a representation?  I heard that they represent the church, but I'm not sure about this at all.  What do you all think?

When looking at chapters 4 & 5, one thing to reconcile is that the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was, before redemption.  Because of that, I don't see how they could be related to the church.

In chapter 4 we see the seven spirits of God as seven lamps of fire.  The song the 24 elders sing doesn't mention redemption because it is pre-redemption.

In chapter 5 the question is asked as to who was worthy to open the book and break its seals.  No one was found anywhere, because it was pre-redemption.  Then the Lamb was found worthy because He overcame.  Redemption.  The 24 elders sang a new song because, redemption.  The seven spirits of God are now seven eyes of the Lamb sent forth into all the earth because, redemption.

Whoever they are, they were there before the crucifixion.

[thereselittleflower]

19 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

When looking at chapters 4 & 5, one thing to reconcile is that the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was, before redemption.  Because of that, I don't see how they could be related to the church.

In chapter 4 we see the seven spirits of God as seven lamps of fire.  The song the 24 elders sing doesn't mention redemption because it is pre-redemption.

In chapter 5 the question is asked as to who was worthy to open the book and break its seals.  No one was found anywhere, because it was pre-redemption.  Then the Lamb was found worthy because He overcame.  Redemption.  The 24 elders sang a new song because, redemption.  The seven spirits of God are now seven eyes of the Lamb sent forth into all the earth because, redemption.

Whoever they are, they were there before the crucifixion.

How do you come to the conclusion they were there pre-redemption?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

How do you come to the conclusion they were there pre-redemption?

They were there before the Lamb.

[thereselittleflower]

 

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

They were there before the Lamb.

Where does it say they were there before the lamb?

In Rev 5 it says:

 

• Rev 5:6

  And I beheld, and, see, in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

"Stood a lamb as it had been slain"

 

"it had been slain" translates:

• σφάζω spházō, sfad'-zo; a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently):—kill, slay, wound.

 

 

It is in the Perfect Passive Participle

The Perfect tense means

• The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

And that makes sense that it happened in the past to when the Lamb stood there.

But when did the Lamb stand there?  Just right then?   Our English translations, being translations, seem to indicate the Lamb JUST appeared. But is that what the Greek says?

• in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb 

 

"stood" translates 

• †ἵστημι hístēmi, his'-tay-mee; a prolonged form of a primary στάω stáō stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):—abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.

 

And is ALSO in the PERFECT tense, with the Active mood and Participle voice.

And so this standing did not just happen, but this "standing" was completed in the past, once an for all, not needing to be repeated.

And the perfect tense:

•   is a primary tense because it emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action. 
• http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson23.htm

 

So while it emphasizes the present ONGOING result of a completed action, the action it self was completed in the past.  

I don't see the passage telling us "when" in the past in relationship to the appearance of the 24 elders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

46 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

 

Where does it say they were there before the lamb?

In Rev 5 it says:

 

Revelation 4

[thereselittleflower]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Revelation 4

   I think the Perfect tense of   hístēmi  - "stood" covered that.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

When looking at chapters 4 & 5, one thing to reconcile is that the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was, before redemption.  Because of that, I don't see how they could be related to the church.

The visions which John saw (which included the 24 elders around the throne of God) occurred AFTER the Lord appeared to John in a blaze of glory and spoke to him personally. Hence those visions are after the letters to the seven churches and represent Christ as exalted, and glorified, and the Lamb upon His throne. Therefore these visions are not "pre-redemption" (I assume pre-redemptive work or the Cross). 

As to being "related" to the Church, many falsely believe that they are merely representative of the Church (the Body of Christ). As a matter of fact, they are representative of the very best elders which God has had on earth during the Church Age. And since elders are also believers, they are a part of the Church, yet distinct from the Church.

This is similar to elders having spiritual authority and leadership in local churches. They are a part of the church, yet distinct from the rest of the assembly. The number 12 is related to Divine government, whereas the number 24 would be double that, hence even more significant of Divine government in eternity, which is related to perfect worship around the throne of God.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

   I think the Perfect tense of   hístēmi  - "stood" covered that.

 

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

The visions which John saw (which included the 24 elders around the throne of God) occurred AFTER the Lord appeared to John in a blaze of glory and spoke to him personally. Hence those visions are after the letters to the seven churches and represent Christ as exalted, and glorified, and the Lamb upon His throne. Therefore these visions are not "pre-redemption" (I assume pre-redemptive work or the Cross). 

As to being "related" to the Church, many falsely believe that they are merely representative of the Church (the Body of Christ). As a matter of fact, they are representative of the very best elders which God has had on earth during the Church Age. And since elders are also believers, they are a part of the Church, yet distinct from the Church.

This is similar to elders having spiritual authority and leadership in local churches. They are a part of the church, yet distinct from the rest of the assembly. The number 12 is related to Divine government, whereas the number 24 would be double that, hence even more significant of Divine government in eternity, which is related to perfect worship around the throne of God.

Well then, where exactly was the Lamb when this question was asked?

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

He wasn't in heaven or on earth or under the earth.  Please support your answer with scripture.  Revelation 4 & 5 give a view of the throne room from the perspective of before & after the redemptive work of Christ on the cross to show His exclusive worthiness to open the seals.

[thereselittleflower]

3 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

 

Well then, where exactly was the Lamb when this question was asked?

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

He wasn't in heaven or on earth or under the earth.  Please support your answer with scripture.  Revelation 4 & 5 give a view of the throne room from the perspective of before & after the redemptive work of Christ on the cross to show His exclusive worthiness to open the seals.

What you are doing is looking at Revelation as linear in time, rather than telling a truth.    The lamb had already been there when John saw Him.    We are not told the answer to your question so we cannot assume it wasn't before the 24 Elders.

 

 

[Ezra]

10 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Well then, where exactly was the Lamb when this question was asked?

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

He wasn't in heaven or on earth or under the earth.  Please support your answer with scripture.  Revelation 4 & 5 give a view of the throne room from the perspective of before & after the redemptive work of Christ on the cross to show His exclusive worthiness to open the seals.

I don't believe that the above passage needs to be interpreted in that manner.  When that angel makes that proclamation, Christ is already seated on His throne as the Lamb of God. The angel is challenging every creature (including all the angels in Heaven) and saying "Is there anyone worthy?" It is almost a rhetorical question, since no creature is as worthy as the Creator. Once that is clearly established, we find the Lamb of God as the only one who is worthy.  But this is a scene chronologically AFTER the exalted and glorified Christ meets with John on earth, since this is a vision in Heaven subsequent to that. Now the Lamb of God presents Himself as the worthy One and begins to open the seals.