Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to all.

Revelation 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
KJV

Consider this simple question:

When God destroys the first Heaven, will He destroy His throne, too?

AWKWARD!

When one makes this "heaven" (the word used for both the "new" and the "first") "God's Abode," one has introduced all sorts of dilemmas that I don't believe John EVER meant to introduce!

HOWEVER, when one makes this "heaven" "the SKY" around our planet earth, it makes the destruction of the "first heaven" just the destruction of this planet's atmosphere, just as the "earth" being "the GROUND" of our planet earth makes the destruction of the "first earth" just the destruction of this planet's surface.

God's "eraser" doesn't have to be so big that it entirely wipes out the whole Universe and the "Abode of God," too! All He has to do is wipe the slate clean for this planet so He can land His New Jerusalem here!

[Ezra]

33 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Ezra.

So we can "fly the friendly 'skies.'" So what? That doesn't change the fact that Peter said that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd heavens are progressively before the Flood, after the Flood before the Fire, and after the Fire.

That's an interesting spin on what Peter said.

[Retrobyter]

18 minutes ago, Ezra said:

That's an interesting spin on what Peter said.

Shalom, Ezra.

Well, it's not ALL that he said, but the framework for what he DID say in 2 Peter 3:3-13 IS that information. And, it's no "spin"; just read it with an open mind and see if that is not what he is saying. And, do use a version that sticks to the Greek as much as possible. In fact, if you are able to do so, check it out in the Greek.

[RustyAngeL]

On 12/29/2015 at 9:32 PM, Retrobyter said:

"Heaven." We sing songs about it; we quote Scripture about it, but I don't think we know the first thing about it in reality.

WHERE is "Heaven?" It IS knowable, according to the Scriptures!

WHAT is "Heaven?" Perhaps, that is the question that should be addressed first. I've bought several books about "Heaven," and they all basically come to the same conclusions. HOWEVER, if they really knew what "Heaven" is, I think they would change their minds!

Okay, let's start with the common rhetoric. Tell me what you currently believe about it. Then, let's explore some definitions and Scripture passages about it.

Where is Heaven?  Where ever Jesus is.

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, inchrist said:

Again photonic energy does not tell you signs and times of the year, day, or month....a fatal flaw in your theory. Wake up!!!

While you [are] at it, could you point me out side, since the sun and moon are not in our firmament and the greater light and lesser light is...where in the sky is it, as I wish to observe it for signs and times as scripture declared them for? Do I need my telescope?

As mentioned you persistently ignore scripture and persistently ignore the following:

Gen 1:15-17

15and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,…

You ignore the very fact God placed the lights and the stars in the firmament.

Do stars all of a sudden not give light to the earth?

God placed them (this includes the stars in the expanse of the heavens (plural) as shamayim (im) is plural unless context dictates other wise.

 

 

False. Please stop denying the fourth day  creation of moon, sun and stars.

The very fact shows something is being added to the firmament and heaven is being expanded in all directions.

 

Shalom, inChrist. (And, it's a good thing you are!)

I would not recommend that you use a telescope to observe the greater light from the sun, not without some SERIOUS shielding! You can observe the lesser light from the moon with a telescope, and "amazingly," you will discover that you are doing what you normally do when you observe the moon with the telescope. Perhaps I should have mentioned that it is not just "photonic energy"; it's ORGANIZED photonic energy! That is, to observe those photons and their effects would be no different than it is today. The radiant energy would still be emitted in the directions that would cause them to converge backwards to the areas where the sources would be! As I said, "the lights and their sources were created WITH THE APPEARANCE OF AGE," JUST AS ADAM WAS CREATED FULL GROWN!

(You've heard the question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Well, there's the solution: The chicken was created FULL GROWN! Therefore, the chicken came before the egg, CONTRARY TO EVOLUTION, which teaches that the egg came before the chicken!)

So, yes, the photonic energy DOES "tell you signs and times of the year, day, or month!" How do you think you "SEE" anything? You SEE the things around you and above you by the LIGHT - the PHOTONIC ENERGY - striking the retina of your eyes, sending signals to your brain! What I am saying is that WHEN God created the sun in particular, our own star, He created it with sunbeams ALREADY IN PLACE! Can't you understand the simplicity of this argument? It doesn't take a genius! I've had children understand this easier than you do! But, it is true that "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." You've gotta be TEACHABLE to learn!

I am NOT "ignoring Scripture," liar, nor am I "denying the fourth day of the creation of the moon, sun, and stars," and the light from them! I am simply paying attention to the details. YOU need to quit ignoring and denying the simple fact that God created "the greater light," not "the sun!" He created "hamaa'owr hagaadol," not "hashemesh!" The text also doesn't say "God placed the stars in the firmament of heaven!" You're sticking two sentences together as if they were one. It's a SEPARATE THOUGHT! "He made the stars also."

God DID expand the gases in our atmosphere in all directions; however, each molecule in our atmosphere is drawn to the earth by the force of gravity. Therefore, the molecules cannot escape the earth past a certain point. They don't have enough energy to reach escape velocity. And, God placed the waters above the firmament called "haShaamaayim" just above the other molecules in our atmosphere in a separate band around our earth as water vapor. It may even have been ionized water vapor as H+ and OH- or O₂- radicals!

The very word "haShaamaayim" is a compound of "ha-" the definite article, "shaam," meaning "name," and "mayim" the DUAL (as opposed to singular and plural) of the word for "water!" (It's the SAME WORD as in verse 9, "hamayim," and only "the waters" UNDER the firmament were "gathered together" to make "seas," "yamiym.") Thus, "haShaamaayim" is a DUAL plural word! It's original purpose is IN its name!

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Was this so hard to admit?  

 

 

Good, now that we are both clear the lesser light and the greater light is the sun and moon.

 Which makes this statement of yours  below incorrect, which will be explained all below

 

 

Gen1:14-18

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

What are these lights that are in the firmament? 

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Sun, moon and stars which we now all agree with. Because your not a liar and don't deny the creation of the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day.

And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

That means God put the sun moon and stars in the firmament, why? To give light to the earth, and for signs and so forth.

This is agreed with Luke 21 : 25

"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

Exactly what Genesis 1:14  states the sun, moon and stars are to be used for in the firmament.

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Which makes your statement here completely false

 

 

The text is very clear you have the sun, moon and stars in the firmament, in the expanse. You have no biblical reference to how big this expanse is to minimize it to your biosphere.

Now that we have established what is in the firmament,  we look at how the firmament was created.

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament : and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

Hence why you have an ocean here on earth and an ocean above the second heaven [firmament] 

Hence why we find in scriptures of a sea under the thrown [throne] of God. Which is frozen, mirror like, crystal like, sapphire like and mingled with fire like.

 

 

Yes, "ha" is the definite article and its translated in English as "The" hence  haShaamaayim is translated as The Heavens.

And yes Shamayim is a very clever word as it's name suggests the parting of the two waters with the firmament in the midst of the two waters.

As hebrew thought lies in the fact of an ocean beneath and an ocean above,  what do you thing the molten laver-sea in the tabernacle is all about?

Infact all you need to do is run some water into your kitchen sink and fill it up, then take your two hands together and split the water with your two hands like God would with the firmament,  you'll notice something remarkable, swirls, funny how we see that in our great expanse with objects we call galaxies.

 

The dual of the Hebrew word shaamaayim [corrected] perfectly reflects the reality of the two distinct parts of the heavens (sky and space) in one continuum.

 However in Gen 1:14, the raqiya` [corrected], is now the place of the sun, moon and stars. 

Significantly, the exact Hebrew terminology used in Gen 1:14 is raqiya`-hashaamaayim [corrected], "firmament of the heavens". 

The difference is a substantial one, for it suggests that these shamayim, or "heavens", are in some sense distinct from shamayim referred to earlier and something has been added or expanded into the word shamayim.

Hence why we get singular and plurality of the word shamayim in the bible now.

And why sites like biblehub gives the following on  shamayim as plural or dual or singular depending on context and whether it is referring to the sky, universe or God's throne or even God himself. 

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8064.htm

 

 

Shabbat shalom, inChrist, who says "my name is Ron but everybody calls me Moe; I don't know why."

I am NOT admitting that the "greater light" is the "sun," nor am I admitting that the "lesser light" is the "moon!" Are you completely daft?! Let me try to spell this out for you:

I believe...

Quote

 

A moment before God created,

NOTHING

A moment after God created,

GREATER LIGHT and SUN (and LESSER LIGHT and MOON, etc.).

 

NOT,...

Quote

 

A moment before God created,

NOTHING

A moment after God created,

SUN & MOON

Then 93,000,000 miles / 186,000 miles/second = 500 seconds / 60 seconds/minute = 8.333 minutes later, GREATER LIGHT on the earth (and on the moon)!

Then 238,900 miles / 186,000 miles/second = 1.284 seconds later, LESSER LIGHT on the earth!

 

Got it, yet?

And, the sun and the moon are in the area "above the sky," "epouranios," that we call "space," (1 Cor. 15:40-41) while the "greater light" and the "lesser light," that we now associate with those objects and say "light of the sun" and "light of the moon," (or "sunbeams" and "moonbeams," or "rays of sunlight" and "rays of moonlight," or whatever) are IN "haShaamaayim" or "ho ouranos", THE ATMOSPHERE! (Gen. 1:14-16)

Just where did all the water for the Flood of Noach's time come from? The "CLOUDS?" Don't be ridiculous! Rain for forty days and forty nights from the clouds? What kept THAT cycle going? First, there WEREN'T any clouds before the Flood! Instead, we are told that the air pressure and the dew point were such that...

Genesis 2:4-6
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
KJV

Second, do you even understand how much water we're talking about to completely cover the mountains 15 cubits * (18 inches/cubit) / (12 inches/foot) = 22.5 feet above them? Water seeks its own level! (Why do you think they use bubbles in water for carpenter levels?) So, I ask it again: Where did all the water for the Flood come from? It was enough water to kill EVERY LIVING SOUL (EVERY LIVING AIR-BREATHER)!

Genesis 7:15-23
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
KJV

Genesis 9:8-15
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breather") that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
KJV

Water has mass, and because of gravity, water has weight! Water falls! Where did all this water come from? IT FELL FROM THE WATERS ABOVE THE FIRMAMENT, ABOVE THE ATMOSPHERE! It surely didn't come from the clouds or from "Heaven!" God didn't "empty His molten laver - sea," either! It had to be water close enough to earth for the earth's gravity to attract it!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Did you know  ‘waters/ "mayim"  scriptually were the originally-created, basic building blocks of matter that the earth was made from, and further became all that was created outside of our atmosphere and into our universe.

See have a look here: Astronomers Find Largest, Oldest Mass of Water in Universe

http://m.space.com/12400-universe-biggest-oldest-cloud-water.html

Get this, they don't even know where it comes from...12-billion-year-old cloud harboring 140 trillion times more water than all of Earth's oceans combined.

Check this out what they had to say about water vapor

Scientists think water vapor was present even in the early universe. So finding this old cloud of the stuff doesn't come as a shock.

"It's another demonstration that water is pervasive throughout the universe, even at the very earliest times," said study lead author Matt Bradford of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.

You wouldnt expect the writer of Genesis to make distinctions between things like stellar matter, methane gas, asteroids, comets, etc. 

A simple elemental term, ‘waters,’ is more than sufficient and efficient. 

This water/ flood that came from above could have come from any point in the expanse.

 

There's the problem, you think   "raqiya "  , is only limited to our atmosphere. 

God has a one too:

Eze 10:1 I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Praise ye the LORD.  Praise God in His sanctuary;

praise Him in the firmament of His power.” (Ps. 150:1);

“Praise the LORD!  Praise God in His sanctuary;

Praise Him in His mighty firmament!” (Ps. 150:1);

“Praise Jehovah!  Praise God in His holy place;

Praise Him in the expanse [raqiya] of His might.” (Ps. 150:1)

How high in height is God's raqiya, it must be said unmeasurable. 

The Psalmist is calling for worshippers to praise Him in His sanctuary, in His holy place, in His firmament! 

Not just any firmament, but the firmament of His power, of His might, His mighty firmament! . 

That sit above the heads of the cherubims

Raqiya, can refer to either (1) a ‘heaven’—a stretched-out expanse (or space), 

or

(2) a “face”—a bound-together solid (or surface) 

Now this firmament stretched out like a scroll from the face of Gods throne”—Job 26:9 all the way to the face of the earth…” (Amos 9:6)

This is also unmeasurable

God alone stretches the firmament at His measurement which is unmeasurable

Ps. 19:1 As The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth His handiwork

Dan 12:3

Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

You do not have a single measurement of equating equally raqiya only to our atmosphere, as shown the word raqiya meaning expand  is unmeasurable and must be treated as transitional zones between our atmosphere, the universe and God's abode. Your failer has been not to recognize this does not change the natural meaning of the word raqiya or shamayim.

 

Shalom, inChrist.

Why do you always distract from the pertinent points? WHO CARES ABOUT WATER BILLIONS OF MILES AWAY?!!!! IT HAD TO BE WATER CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE EARTH TO BE ATTRACTED BY ITS GRAVITY for it to fall as rain, triggering the Flood! How is it that you don't understand that?

And, as far as the "raqiya`" goes, the word is used 17 times in the TANAKH. The first 9 times are in Genesis 1, verses 6, 7 (3x), 8, 14, 15, 17, 20.

NONE of these verses disagree with what I've been saying!

Genesis 1:6-8
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
KJV

Genesis 1:14-19
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
KJV

Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
KJV

The next two occurrences are from the Psalms, specifically, Psalm 19:1 and Psalm 150:1.

Psalm 19:1-3
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
KJV

Psalm 150:1-2
1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
KJV

These are talking about the sky. In Psalm 19, David is saying that the sky shows God's handywork! Day or night, the sky reveals the awesome power of God! 

There is one occurrence in Daniel 12:3, and it's talking about the future Resurrection:

Daniel 12:2-3
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
KJV

Just as the blue sky seems to glow with its own light, so we too who are wise and awaken in resurrection to everlasting life shall glow! And, those who turn many others to righteousness, too, shall shine like the stars!

The only verses that MIGHT be talking about something else are those 5 verses in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 1:4-28
4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.
7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.
8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.
9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.
12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.
15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.
16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.
17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.
18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.
19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
22 And the likeness of the firmament upon (above) the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.
24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
KJV

Ezekiel 10:1
1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
KJV

Here, the word means "plate" or a "thinly beaten sheet of metal." It may even refer to a "dome," like the sky above us appears. It is NOT the same thing as presented in Genesis 1, nor is it referred to as "haShaamaayim."

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

No, its clear you've missed the point, actually three points.

1. The universe is awash with water, not surprising since the firmament source material is pre-existent universal ‘water’.

2. Our own solar system is a washed with water....its really not difficult for God to call the little elements Oxygen and Hydrogen two by two together just like the ark, gather them up and send the flood, since they are the most abundant elements in the universe and in our solar system where a water vapour gas  could be formed near the earth for the flood.

3. Since we can see there are huge volumes of water in our universe, how hard is to accept there is a huge volume of water under God's throne

The point you missed is God could get the necessary amount of water together for the flood any where in the expanse.

You asked where God could get this water from. Not difficult. God pre-knew the flood was going to occur, and in his time set the motions to gather the necessary amount of water for the flood from any point in the expanse we call the universe, which is made out of pre - existent universal water.

 

 

 

The bible gives no explanation of how God formed his abode and the firmament "expanse" in his abode, you state that it is not made of the same thing as in Genesis 1... how could you possibly know that, secondly the writer used the word firmament, unless your suggestion you understand the complete cosmology of all creation, and YOU have a better word from scripture for describing God's firmament?, which I have no doubt you can not produce. 

The point being is the word raqiya - expanse has no fixed measurement, and can therefore not be used solely to describe our own atmosphere as a fixed measurement and can thus be used to describe our universe which is also a non fixed measurement without changing the very nature and function of  the word raqiya. 

Like wise, God's heaven THE Heavens/Hashamayim with a capital H, is a non fixed measurement to how far God's heaven stretches

Since shamayim, can be used for non-measurable description of God's abode, it can also be used for a fixed measurement of our sky shamayim.

There is no violation of the function, meaning and nature of the word shamayim used for our universe which is also a non-measurable description.

Ezekiel proves without a doubt the different levels of firmament not surprising again we see different levels of Heaven. 

However if you wish to persist in your flat earth type theology , then I would suggest you write to biblehub and explain to them since your such an intellectual genius why shamayim and firmament can only mean and be only limited to our atmosphere, and that the different usage of the word shamayim for universe and the raqiyah of the universe and for God's abode is completely incorrect and that God's throne sits in our atmosphere. And Gods glory is limited to our atmosphere....Good luck with that.

Nowhere have you shown or proven with what I presented disturbs the natural meaning of the word shamayim and firmament. 

If you going to read only atmosphere into the text your going to get only atmosphere from the text, if you understand the various uses of Shamayim and raqiya you get a bigger picture of God's might.

Praise ye the LORD.  Praise God in His sanctuary;

praise Him in the firmament of His power.” (Ps. 150:1);

“Praise the LORD!  Praise God in His sanctuary;

Praise Him in His mighty firmament!” (Ps. 150:1);

“Praise Jehovah!  Praise God in His holy place;

Praise Him in the expanse [raqiya] of His might.” (Ps. 150:1)

It is no wonder the writers still thought the waters at the other end of the firmament was still up there

Ps.148:4 Praise him, you heavens of heavens, and you waters that be above the heavens.

Shalom, inChrist.

Y'know, it's easier to believe what I believe than it is to accept the nonsense that comes from your typing. It's more consistent with Scripture, and I don't care to formulate my beliefs around that fictional theory called Evolution ... which isn't a theory by the way. In reality, it is little more than a hypothesis. It cannot be observed nor can it be repeated through experimentation. Therefore, it is not true science, as science is defined.

Actually, you're wrong to think that "the universe is awash with water." While hydrogen may be abundant, oxygen is NOT. Helium, the next highest element on the periodic chart is much more abundant than oxygen. And, there's no such thing as a "pre-existent universal 'water'!" I challenge you for a source on THAT nonsense! See? You have your OWN mythology that YOU should deal with!

In your second point, you said, "2. Our own solar system is a washed with water....its really not difficult for God to call the little elements Oxygen and Hydrogen two by two together just like the ark, gather them up and send the flood, since they are the most abundant elements in the universe and in our solar system where a water vapour gas  could be formed near the earth for the flood." REALLY?! Well, the burden of proof is on you! How is "our own solar system awash with water?" It's really not, y'know, or our scientists would aim our rockets for the biggest patch of water they can find, looking for signs of life!

Also, there's no such thing as a "Hashamayim with a capital H" because there's no such thing as a capital letter in Hebrew!

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎29‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 0:43 AM, other one said:

Most of my friends think I'm nuts, but I'm really bothered by what they are doing at CERN.

 

Me  too , but to be expected ,as we or rather 'they, 'try to be like God,  and usurp His power . 

Sorry creatures who are too carnal  ,to realise  there are somethings better left to God  .  

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎08‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 9:17 AM, inchrist said:

 

No I don't think you do actually. Because you would of rendered the meaning of the molten laver-sea

 

 

 

Have you considered that new Jerusalem is currently in heaven?

 

 

 

 

Here is all the entire discription of the heavenly sea.

"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens."

(Psalms 148:4 KJV)

"And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

(Rev 4:6 KJV)

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

(Revelation 21:1 KJV)

"And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above."

(Ezekiel 1:22 KJV)  

The reason it appears like a smooth, crystal surface is because it is frozen:

"The waters are hid as [with] a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen."

(Job 38:30 KJV)

"And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness."

(Exodus 24:10 KJV)

It is also likened to glass:

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

(Revelation 15:2 KJV)

What you fail to notice is that particular "sea" is represented (in type) by an object that was a part of the design of Solomon's Temple known as the "Molten Sea." (1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2.) 

If you look at a diagram layout of the Temple you will see that this sea is between the Altar and the main part of the Temple where the Holy Place and Most Holy Place was. Coincidence I think not. Separating the the third heaven from the second and first heaven where sin dwells.

 

 

Hence why I say you don't really understand the tabernacle and why your position is false

Heb 8:1 -2

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Again notice the word heaven is plural

If we are to accept your ridiculous idea there is no three upper levels of Heaven and the third heaven is a future chronological event then Christ is clearly not sitting currently on the right hand side of God and clearly not currently administering on our behalf and can only do so in the future...in a temple but there is no temple.

Your approach to this entire debate has been so flawed that you fail continuously  to render scripture properly by playing hebrew and greek word games and not actually applying them effectively in usage and context is simply borderline foolishness as well as arrogant to say the least.

I am sorry inChrist ,but I am ot reading your posts   here as they are too 'hostile' .