Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Guest Thallasa]

13 minutes ago, OldSchool2 said:

I have seen it in the Seekers' Lounge and have experienced it in private chat, but now they are accruing enough posts to troll the rest of the Worthy forums.

Mmmmm ,need to Watch and see . I never go to the other places . Goodnight it's well after midnight here .

[Your closest friendnt]

18 minutes ago, Thallasa said:

He will not answer a straight question on this ,and it has been asked in many ways ,so wondering what his purpose

is in posting here ..

Have ever read in the scriptures that some people gather around Jesus and keep asking him, repeatedly the same questions,

They even try to discrete him that he can not be the Christ because he is from Nasareth. 

Do you thing because Jesus did not informed them that he was born in Bethlehem, and that he grew up in Nazareth, and he remained silent. 

Do you thing that he was addmiting to been born in Nazareth?

No so, but the people would say, 

His silence is his admission that he is born in Nazareth.

Tell me something when someone believes that Jesus is the Christ, and he is telling the other people to believe about Jesus not the same way as the Jews do, who crucified him, and denied that he is the Christ.

But to believe that Jesus is the Christ.

Are you going to follow that person around the way the Jews were following Jesus, and keep asking him:

Are you a Trinitanian?

Are you from this doctrine?

Are you the Devil?

Are you the Antachrist?

Now take a minute study what I posted, give your opinion about me and then we will judge the soundness of your judgement.

Is this fair to you?

[Your closest friendnt]

On 25 January, 2016 at 6:26 PM, OldSchool2 said:

Perhaps you understand the Quran -- which forbids anyone to even say "Trinity" (Sura 4:169[171]) -- better than you do the Gospel?

I am questioning the soundness of your judgements, to call a brother in Christ, those names and to make so many falls accusations, in public, and without any foundations for your claims, that even thought I denied them, you will find the need still to insist in your slanderous and unprovoked attacks against my integrity

That's why I terminate my interaction with you, and I don't want to further have anything to do with you and the wrong thoughts of your mind, your untruth statments, 

And I Have the Right to ask that, because of your untruth statments about me.

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, OldSchool2 said:

Just a person?

Shalom, OldSchool2.

Just a person? NO! He is the "SON OF GOD," the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant!

2 Samuel 7:8-17
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

1 Chronicles 17:7-15
7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the Lord will build thee an house.
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

1 Chronicles 22:7-13
7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the Lord my God:
8 But the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
11 Now, my son, the Lord be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the Lord thy God, as he hath said of thee.
12 Only the Lord give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the Lord thy God.
13 Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the Lord charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed.
KJV

1 Chronicles 28:2-10
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the Lord, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the Lord your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
10 Take heed now; for the Lord hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.
KJV

Obviously, Shlomoh (Solomon) DID NOT have a "perfect heart" and a "willing mind." The rule of kings says this:

Deuteronomy 17:15-17
15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
KJV

He did precisely what a king of Israel was NOT supposed to do, and his wives turned his heart away from God:

1 Kings 4:26
26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
KJV

1 Kings 10:28-29
28 And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
29 And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means.
KJV

1 Kings 11:1-4
1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father.
KJV

1 Kings 10:14
14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold.
KJV

He multiplied to himself horses, wives, and gold. Therefore, the promise passed on to David's heir in the future - the Messiah of prophecy, who also happens to be the Word of God incarnate, Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym = Jesus the Messiah (or Christ) of God.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

The case for English Versions are inspired:

…No prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20-21)

No prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation or understanding, but rather, that all prophecy of Scripture came about from the Holy Spirit leading – men. 

The English versions were therefore blessed by the Holy Spirit with copies of the originals which the Holy Spirit led men to write, where by the Holy Spirit continued to lead men to make painstaking copies continually through time to our present day Bible .

In the case of the New Testament there are thousands of original manuscript copies, as well as thousands more fragments or portions of the New Testament, the same with the Old Testament. How the Holy Spirit has blessed us

The very fact the Bible was written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, shows how the written word of God was needed to be translated for various people groups to read it, this is why God commanded His Great Commission.... Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.Mark 16:15

All language versions are inspired, as God has many languages to communicate his words through. 

The standard of Holy Inspiration is measured in the spread of Christianity in all her languages by the very rate of her volume of conversions to the faith, is a satisfactory measurement of proving Holy Inspiration for the various language versions of the bible. 

The language is not the issue, what is at issue is our fundamental understanding between God and creation. More specific how God regulates himself with His creation. 

Gods words didnt get lost in translation

God is not limited:

 

 

You are correct God is everywhere. But God has regulations with dealing with sin. 

My expression of "dwell" lies in the regulation of God with His creation.

It is a simple fact God is not residing with us physically, we only see this happening in Revelations. Though we can feel His presence and talk with God and God can direct our lives...the communication is not in doubt nore physical changes in ones life resulting from God. God the Father however has chosen not to physically dwell with us for the time being. HOWEVER - this does not stop us from boldly approach God's throne IN His abode.

This is perfectly illustrated by the following example:

(A) Tabernacle/Temple

The tabernacle presents a perfect opportunity  of the insights to how God regulates Himself with creation.

 

 

The very fact God chose the Holy Place and Holy of Holies to reside IN and manifest himself was regulated to a specific place. Whoever entered into the Holy of Holies was entering the very presence of God. The very presence of God was not to be found IN the outer court otherwise there would be no need for the Holy Place and Inner Chamber - Gods regulations is a shadow of heavenly regulations.

In fact, anyone except the high priest who entered the Holy of Holies would die. 

Even the high priest, God’s chosen mediator with His people, could only pass through the veil and enter this sacred dwelling once a year, on a prescribed day called the Day of Atonement.

Jesus cruxifiction ripped the veil, exposing God IN the Holy of Holies.

This is a shadow of heavenly things of where we are right now with God. God's kingdom where God is sitting right now on his throne is exposed to us to boldly approach him still in His dwelling place still regulating sin this time through His mediator Jesus Christ.

We are invited to God's dwelling place as Jesus who is the one mediator between man and God who sits on the right hand side IN God's dwelling place as we speak.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place (hagios) by the blood of Jesus,

hagios: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred -  Strong's Concordance 

hágios: properly, different (unlike), other ("otherness"), holy; for the believer, 40 (hágios) means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world." - HELPS Word-studies

The Holy of Holies is a representation of God's dwelling place itself which is in heaven (Third Heaven, the Highest Heaven, The Heavenly, the upper Heavens, Set Apart Heaven, Holy Place, Holy of Holies), which we have access now through Christ, not in the future but now . 

 Hebrews 8:5 

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

epouranios/ Heavenly realms.

heavenly, celestial, in the heavenly sphere, the sphere of spiritual activities; met: divine, spiritual - Strong's Concordance

Heaven, Heavenly (-ies) [Adjective] epouranios "heavenly," what pertains to, or is in, heaven (epi, in the sense of "pertaining to," not here, "above"), has meanings corresponding to some of the meanings of ouranos – Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary

Properly, existing in or above heaven, heavenly – Thayer's Greek Lexicon

EPOURANIOS: epi = upon (intensification) + ouranios = heavenly; or, higher than other heavens.

In other words Spiritual Heaven. A heaven of spiritual activities, higher/ above the other heavens. Which was already explained as being set apart.

Revelation 4:1-2 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven (Ouranos) . And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set IN heaven (Ouranos), and One sat on the throne.

ouranos - Definition: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens. - Strong's Concordance

Strong's Concordance lists EPOURANIOS and OURANOS both being used as spiritual Heaven. Is this correct, can OURANOS be used interchangeable with " Spirtual Heavens" ? Does Epouranios have the same meanings corresponding to some of the meanings of ouranos?

Can OURANOS be used to discribe higher than other heavens?

Example of such a case:

1 Corinthians 15:47-49

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven (ouranos). 

As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the  heavenly (epouranios) man, so also are those who are of heaven (epouranioi)

And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly (epouraniou) man.

If we take ouranos in 1 Cor.15:47 to specifically refer to the sky , then we are left with the impression, that Jesus is from the sky .

This is a really flawed superficial view of what is pertaining in the context of the verses.

If Adam was from dust, then the second man from the sky is from particles that makes up our atmosphere, Jesus then was made from water vapour, 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.9% argon, and 0.03% carbon dioxide.

In other words while Adam was made from solid materials - dust, then Jesus was made from gaseous materials.

However if we accept ouranos to mean Spiritual Heaven as suggested by [b} VINE’S, THAYER’S and STRONG’S , then we have a clearer picture of what the text is communicating to us:-

That Adam was made from dust of the earth, and Christ was made by SPIRITUAL Heaven

This is confirmed by  Matthew 1:18

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

It is conclusive that Ouranos can be used interchangeably with Epouranois, in other words Ouranos can refer to spiritual heaven and NOT just the sky.

A heaven that is set apart and is placed above or higher than our sky, that is not of this world.

Next we can examine if Ouranos is interchangeable with sky and universe:

 

 

Greek thought of Ouranos:  interchangeable - Sky and Universe

During the classical Greek period ~ to the Greeks mythology, Ouranos included the vault, lower atmospheric heaven, higher starry heaven, and the universe in its whole, and a location near and above, the atmospheric heaven the dwelling place of the gods, pictured as above the thick clouds of heaven, where the gate of heaven (pluai ouranou i.e , the thick clouds) are.

Ouranos was viewed on the one hand the lower heaven, the area of the atmosphere, that part which is wrapped in clouds (Homer's Odyssey, Od. 5.303),

And on the other hand, as the higher heaven of the stars (asteoenta, Hes. Th. 127; Il. 15.371, Od. 9.527).

Plato and Aristotle, ouranos is also conceived of as the totality of all of the universe (PI. PIt. 269d, Ti. 32b; Arist. Cael. 278b21, Metaph. 990a20)

Hebrew Thought of Hashamayim: Interchangeable - Sky and Universe

The Testament of Levi ~ Chapter 3    

    3:1  Hear, therefore, regarding the heavens widen have been shown to thee. The lowest is for this cause gloomy unto thee, in that it beholds all the unrighteous deeds of men.3:2  And it has fire, snow, and ice made ready for the day of judgement, in the righteous judgement of God; for in it are all the spirits of the retributions for vengeance on men.3:3  And in the second are the hosts of the armies which are ordained for the day of judgement, to work vengeance on the spirits of deceit and of Beliar. And above them are the holy ones.3:4  And in the highest of all dwelleth the Great Glory, far above all holiness.

Book of the Secrets of Enoch presents seven levels of heavens so does the book Assumption of Moses.

English thought on Heavens

1. often heavens The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament.

2. Christianity

a. often Heaven The abode of God, the angels, and the souls of those who are granted salvation.

b. An eternal state of communion with God; everlasting bliss.

3. Any of the places in or beyond the sky conceived of as domains of divine beings in various religions.

4.

a. Heaven God: Heaven help you!

b. heavens Used in various phrases to express surprise: Good heavens!

5. The celestial powers; the gods: The heavens favored the young prince.

6. A condition or place of great happiness, delight, or pleasure: The lake was heaven.

It would appear that English use of the word Heavens in its various usage are exactly the same in Greek and Hebrew thought usage.

I offer the following case sample:

Neh 9:6

You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

We are given the expression with regards to God creating not only heaven (sky), and the earth and seas but also the heaven of heavens (universe); where God can not be  contained in the heaven and heaven of heavens (I Kings 8:27; I Chron. 2:6; 2 Chron. 6:18);  to God as the one who rides upon the heaven of heavens which were of old (Ps. 68:33 and to whom praise should be made by the heaven of heavens (Ps. 148:4))

There is biblical believe and support scriptually implied by the expression that a third heaven exists beyond or apart from the lower atmospheric heaven and the higher heaven of the sun, moon and stars.

 

 

But except from beyond the universe at the same time? Where God rides upon the universe? 

 

 

Then you fail to realise that all creation was affected. 

Shalom, inChrist.

And, still you kick at the ox goad. "IMPLIED?" Read Matthew 16:1-4 again.

 

[Guest Thallasa]

10 hours ago, OldSchool2 said:

Cultural jihad?

Don't know .That is to assume the worst ,and maybe  Completed ... is just confused and needs some guidance to get there . When we are very unsure of ourselves we can be afraid to admit that we need help ;

  perhaps a bad experience with some teacher ,or preacher .

Certainly not 'completed yet' ; probably the name tells a lot . Assuming too soon that he knows everything he needs to .

[OldSchool2]

9 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I am questioning the soundness of your judgements....

The soundness of your judgements about John, Jesus and the Trinity are what's in question.

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ ... No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also...." (1 John 2:22-23, NIV)

[OldSchool2]

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Have ever read in the scriptures that some people gather around Jesus and keep asking him, repeatedly the same questions....

But you are not Jesus, and it's not inappropriate for forum members on a Christian website to question whether or not you believe that the Christ is co-eternal and consubstantial with the Father in light of your posts here.

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, inchrist said:

Perhaps you should,  you seem to be unaware Christ did give them a sign

Yes, He did: "Red sky at night, a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning."

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, inchrist said:

 but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah

It amazes me how some things never change.

 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things John 3:12

 

Oh, so YOU'RE responsible for the mistranslation of "ouranos" in verse 1! I've been wondering who started it!