Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Yes

 

 

Abraham indeed inherited the land and the Bible says that in so many words, as will soon be noted.

But it does not say the land would sometime be owned, controlled and lived in by Abraham personally and that's what Acts 7:5 agrees with

The statement, "to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever...for I will give it unto thee," is not a change.

God assigned the land to Abraham and his line, and when he died its assignment was to his seed.

Shabbat shalom, inChrist.

Woah there, Nelly! Do you believe in a Resurrection or not? Please read the verses I quoted from Hebrews above! What you're saying here is NOT CORRECT!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Yes

 

 

Abraham indeed inherited the land and the Bible says that in so many words, as will soon be noted.

But it does not say the land would sometime be owned, controlled and lived in by Abraham personally and that's what Acts 7:5 agrees with

The statement, "to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever...for I will give it unto thee," is not a change.

God assigned the land to Abraham and his line, and when he died its assignment was to his seed.

I am not quite understanding you.

First look at the promises made in two covenants. Especially with acts in mind

Abe is told he will die, and the promise was to the 4th Generation of his seed. Which excludes Isaac and Jacob. As well as Joseph by the way which knew this to be true, as he commanded his bones be brought up out of Egypt when the first covenant was fulfilled.

The first covenant made with Abraham...........

Gen 15:15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The second covenant of circumcision made with Abraham in Genesis 17

Here is where the promise is to give Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, the land.

to be their God and to be made a father of Many nations, and of KINGS.....

Gen 17:1   And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2  And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3  And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 ¶  As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5  Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 ¶  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8  And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
 

Remember Paul teaches that the women are an allegory for these two covenants. The covenants are real, but the women serve as an allegory for the two covenants.

the kings come from Sarah, the 12 princes from hagar

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, inchrist said:

 

Hebrew thought in the word "give" means that God would assign, ascribe, bestow, put down, make it over to Abraham on behalf of his seed, which would be numerous.--Gen. 12:2, 13:16, 15:5

So Abraham would not come into it himself personally, as owner, inheritor, though it was for him and the events of that day make evident that Abraham then, as well as before, did not expect to ever occupy the land as personal controller and possessor. God had in view the promised posterity.

Abraham's response--"whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?"--should be viewed in the light of the promise and his faith that his seed would become a multitude

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness...Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed [counted] to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead." (Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3,23,24)

Paul also pointed out to the Romans, many of whom were Gentiles, that the blessedness of faith justification came to Abraham when he was yet uncircumcized.--Rom. 4:9-13

 

And Abraham did know how he was going to inherit it

13  And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14  And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
15 ¶  And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16  And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17  That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18  And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
 

As Christ said concerning this

Joh 8:56  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

As Hebrews said

Heb 11:19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

God never gave an inheritance to Abraham in the first covenant. It was to his seed of the fourth generation. It is pretty clear Joseph knew this as well.

Ge 50:25  And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19  And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
 

Abraham was promised heirs. He waited in faith for the promise of what God was giving him for them to inherit!

This is why Israel is called Gods firstborn. They stood  as heirs of a double portion of inheritance. One portion the earthly worldly kingdom, and other portion being heavenly.

Isaac (like Christ) was as an only born SOLE HEIR of the covenant.

5  And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6  But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
 

Heb 9:17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Joline
additional comments

[Retrobyter]

40 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Your reasoning is illogical God is omnipresent omnipotent transcendent. God can be in pure essence of  unsubstantiality or be a physical material substance freely.

This is more than satisfactory to prove your FALSE standing. It would appear then you value your doctrine higher than scripture.

He can abide far or near. A further claim you deny. As it seem incapable of God to live beyond and further than his creation

Jer 23:23

"Am I only a God nearby," declares the LORD, "and not a God far away? 

This is more than satisfactory to prove your FALSE standing.

A God who can exist further than the universe.

Given the simple fact God existed before all creation of our universe and planet....God existed in his own realm....a realm that is eternal.

I am not interested in your excuses...on what you think spirit is....this does not stop the witness account of John, where on the one side spirits (angels) are in the acts of their service in administrating to God up to His wrath being poured out, compared to the priests services in the earthly temple or the objects being observed.

Now if you wish to carry on this conversation....I would suggest answer my question, instead of trying every form of human reasoning to snake round it.

 

Shabbat shalom, again, inChrist.

You don't read very well, do you? I have already said that I am convinced and confident that God is omnipresent. However, it is wrong to say that "He can abide far OR near." Omnipresence says that God abides BOTH far AND near! And, THAT is what Yirmeyahu ("Jeremiah") was saying in Jer. 23:23.

Regarding "further than the Universe," that assumes that the Universe is limited! While it may SEEM that way to some people, we have no guarantee that it really IS limited! No matter how big we make our telescopes, we just find MORE stars, galaxies, and nebulae! And, an infinite Universe would attest to an infinite God.

The account of the Creation in Genesis 1 and 2 is about the creation of THIS planet and its atmosphere! With the one exception in the phrase "God ... made the stars also," the gist of the account is about the forming of this planet's biosphere and the creatures that inhabit it. We don't know from this account, except from the statement "He made the stars also," when God created the rest of the Universe. It may be only as old as our earth, or it may be a few days younger, but God is silent about the creation of the rest of the Universe. That's HIS business, not ours. We only know that He would be its Creator. From what we know experientially, we are limited to this earth and its solar system.

As far as other dimensions go, we don't know that they exist, either! All we know experientially is that we have the four dimensions: length, width, depth, and time. Therefore, between this information, I justly question your statement that "God is ... transcendent," except in relation to this earth and its solar system.

Thus, when you say, "God existed in his own realm....a realm that is eternal," that is another accidental attempt at limiting God's omnipresence! You absolutely NEED to come to grips with the fact that there is NOWHERE WHERE GOD IS NOT!!!

Regarding "angels," the Greek word in John's book is "aggeloi" which strictly means "MESSENGERS!" He just as well may be referring to HUMAN messengers as he is to "supernatural messengers!" I'm not going to go into it right now, but I can show you from the Greek that at least ONE of those "aggeloi" is indeed referring to a "human messenger!" And, if HE'S a human messenger, then six other "aggeloi" could also be human messengers! Therefore, it is also wrong to ASSUME that these are "spirits (angels)!" One cannot just assume that these two words are synonymous!

[Retrobyter]

31 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Please Father help me with patience with this one. Amen

Yes, Father, help him to see that the plain Truth is ONLY found in your Word and that Truth can and MUST be logical, as well. Ah-MAINE! (Hebrew for "Truth!")

[Guest]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

Scripture makes this very clear

◄ Acts 7:5 ►
And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

2. Gen 35:9-12 KJV
9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed 
him. 10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any 
more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. 11 And God said 
unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of 
nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; 12 And the land which I 
gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, AND to thy seed after thee will I 
give the land .

In Gen. 26:5 quoted above, after Abraham died.

The fact that Abraham buried his wife and was himself buried in the promised land, conclusively shows Abraham's stake to his inheritance, which at the time he could not possess.

Hebrews says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not receive the fulfillment of the promise, but that its fulfillment was delayed so that we might share in it with them. Hebrews 11:8-9, 17-19, 39-40

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which HE should after 
receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from 
whence also he received him in a figure. …
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not receive the fulfillment of the promise. 

Note in verse 
8, Paul recognized that Abraham personally must inherit the Promised Land (which HE
should after receive for an inheritance). 

In verses 17-19, Abraham’s willing obedience to kill his own child of promise (Isaac) was based on his belief that God would raise Isaac 
from the dead in order to fulfill the promise. 

This was a “figure.”It is a figure of the fact that the permanent inheritance of the Promised Land will indeed be through resurrection, of Abraham actually in possession of the land

 

 

I do not see a lot here that is different than what I said concerning Abraham..

The son's of Jacob, the children of Jacob/Israel I do see a difference, since the only mention I made concerning them was being called the firstborn in my posts. I acknowledge Jacob/ Israel as the father of the nation which has a double portion. Other than that I see nothing here to convince me of anything else concerning Abraham and his inheritance.

Israel himself was the father of twelve tribes. as we see going through scripture these tribes Change. We end up seeing Levi as a whole tribe has a distinct inheritance from Israel, and is not reckoned with them. The Levites do not inherit the land, nor are they called or numbered among the Israelites.

[The_Patriot21]

Simple question simple answer...where we're not at the moment...

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, to all.

It is often difficult to "see the forest for the trees"; that is, it's hard to see the governing principle - the "law" - behind all the instances. We can induce much, but when "a tree doesn't seem to fit in," we must adjust our "view of the forest." That is, when the induced "law" encounters "outliers" that don't seem to fit into the set of instances governed by that principle, we must broaden our principle to include the outliers, as well. It seems to be an ever-changing "governing principle," and we seem to NEVER arrive at a true law by "pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps."

However, God was gracious to us by giving us several universal governing principles that apply to ALL instances in our lives and those of others, both in the present, in the past, and in the future, too. These principles, too, are often hard for us to perceive, but once we get them down, we will continue to surprise ourselves with how often they may be applied to instances we had never considered before to be so governed.

One of the lesser, but eternal truths is that "Yeshua` (Jesus) was and STILL IS a Jew!" That means that His mother, Miryam (Mary), was also a Jewess!

Furthermore, we learn that "Yeshua` was and STILL IS a Son of David," both genetically through Miryam and in the kingly lineage through adoption to His earthly father, Yosef (Joseph).

Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the Magi came from the east looking for He who was "born King of the Jews."

Now, let's just carry the lineage back: He was and still is the Heir to the Throne of David, He was and still is the Son of David, He was and still is the Son of Y'hudah (Judah, which makes Him a "Jew"), He was and still is the Son of Isra'el (Israel, which makes him an "Israelite," one of "the children of Israel"), He was and still is a Son of Yits'chaq (Isaac), and He was and still is a Son of Avraham (Abraham). (Of course, we're told as much through two lineages recorded in Matthew 1 and Luke 3.)

Now, let's change tracks just a little: Were these ancestors in the Messiah, the Christ? No, but did they expect a Resurrection of their bodies? YES! Avraham fully expected his son, Yits'chaq to be raised from the dead if he plunged that knife into his son's throat, cutting the jugular vein! Iyov (Job, whom some feel was a contemporary of Avraham) said,

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV

So, were they in the Messiah? NO! Ha! Ha! The Messiah was IN THEM! So, shall they be in the Resurrection? YOU CAN BET ON IT! IT'S A SURE THING! (And, it's NOT gambling if it's a sure thing!)

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Concerning the levites God made that distinction clearly. 

Again concerning Abraham the scripture is clear on the matter

Gen 17:8

The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Yes, Isaac and Jacob were heirs of the same promises of the second covenant made in the blood of circumcision. The first covenant was to the fourth generation of his seed.

The women are an allegory for the two covenants. Do you see two covenants there? There is no promise to be their God in the first covenant, their is no promise of royalty, that I can see. God simply says he will bring them back there again in the fourth generation, through judging the nation that enslaves them.

The covenant of circumcision is that which caused them to have a share in the second covenant promises of Abraham.  So while God can fulfill one covenant, without the covenant of circumcision it does not go very far. I think this is why the generation which came out of Egypt, not keeping the covenant of circumcision, continued in the promises until they refused to go in and take the land. They had not been circumcising their children during the whole time prior, yet they did not become disinherited until they refused to take hold of the land.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Joline said:

I do not see a lot here that is different than what I said concerning Abraham..

The son's of Jacob, the children of Jacob/Israel I do see a difference, since the only mention I made concerning them was being called the firstborn in my posts. I acknowledge Jacob/ Israel as the father of the nation which has a double portion. Other than that I see nothing here to convince me of anything else concerning Abraham and his inheritance.

Israel himself was the father of twelve tribes. as we see going through scripture these tribes Change. We end up seeing Levi as a whole tribe has a distinct inheritance from Israel, and is not reckoned with them. The Levites do not inherit the land, nor are they called or numbered among the Israelites.

Thank you for your input, God promish the land to Abraham, but Abraham did not get to build a house in that Land, he was a sojourner living in tents, and he also promish Him that Lot is not going to be a co-heir with him in this Land.

And you know what happen to Lot who build a house in that land that time.

Abraham had to buy land, just a cave from someone else, just to burry his wife. And perhaps to have a burial place for him self. He knew that he will die in this Land as a sojourner living in tents from place to place.

Later we see that no one bought any real estate from anyone living there. 

The Lord divided the Land to discentans of Jacob, and he told them the land is mine and I give it to you and your family to live in it and you can not treat your portion like is your own real estate and you can do anything you want with that.

And we see that Essau who was a discendant of Jacob was excluded from that promise. Only Jacob and his children of all his wife's and the children of all the maids were included.

A reverse situation in reference to Abraham, who His all other children were excluded.

Why this reverse of sircumstanses, that will be interesting if I can relate too. 

And I remember what Moses said;

God sent me to lead you out of this bondage and in to a new Land he has promish to Abraham and Isaak and Jacob, but later on he will sent someone else to lead you to a another place, ( that time forget about me and follow him), who God has sent to lead you to your heavenly inheritance. him you should follow.

And Jesus told us that Abraham had seen this day also, the day of Jesus Christ, who will lead the people in to heavenly inheritance.

"Abraham has seen my day and rejoys", yes Abraham had seen and had been promise both promise lands, the earthly with Moses, and the heavenly with Jesus Christ.