Old Covenant vs New Covenant

[thereselittleflower]

1 hour ago, other one said:

Pertaining to worshiping God.....   yes that a pretty good assessment, flower.  Not so sure what the wedding ring has to worshiping God, but is something to think about.   prayer we've been given instruction on so it would not count, but the symbols I would have to think about.

But we should be using none of them to worship our Lord or His Father.

Why not?

Jewish worship included all sorts of symbols and images.  Look at the Ark, its tabernacle and the images all over it..   Look at the Ark itself.   Arks were in use by pagans long before God told Moses to build an Ark.  Arks were common in kingdoms.   

Yet God took the use of the ark which was pagan in origin, and told Moses to create one.  God took what was pagan and converted it to holy use.   This is the example we are given by God Himself in scripture.   

There is nothing wrong with taking what was once devoted to pagan use, and converting it and devoting it to holy use in worship of God.    If there was, then there would have never been an Ark of the Old Covenant.

 

 

[Qnts2]

As far as pagan things:

Pagans worshipped things that God created. In a discussion years ago, I did an internet search of various things with the word Pagan in front of them.

For example, I looked up Pagan fish, and up came a picture of a fish which some pagan religion used and worshipped. I tried Pagan bird, and yes, it was there. After a long list of reptiles, animals, fish and birds, I tried things like a Pagan triangle, star, circle, cross and they were all there. I tried various celestial things like stars, moon etc, and they were there. There has been a huge number of pagan religions from almost every country, and the number of Pagan things was very large. Pagans, again have worshiped or used many different things which were created. So much so, that it is just about impossible to have anything God created which has not been used in a corrupt fashion to worship strange gods.

Does that make almost everything in Gods creation off limit for God to use, because some pagan religion has used them?  Pagan religions have also tried to claim every day of the week, and every month, for corrupt worship of a strange god. If we want to avoid anything ever used by a person or group for corrupt worship, no symbols could be used. God did not abandon His creation, or His symbols because of corrupt sinful men. 

The following is a pagan site, with weird advertising. I am posting it because it list pagan symbols by country of origin, and some by use, such as astrological signs.

http://www.ancient-symbols.com/pagan_symbols.html

On this site is a list of a few Jewish symbols. I disagree that all are pagan as some are commanded in scripture and I would not classify Judaism as a pagan religion. But, just as a note, there is one symbol which is of pagan origin called the Hamsa, or as they call it, the Hamesh hand. The Hamsa is said to ward off the evil eye. Yes, some Jewish people were superstitious and the Hamsa is a somewhat common piece of jewelry among Reform Jews and Conservative Jews.  

There is also a list of Christian symbols that many would say are not pagan, and I agree. The most interesting on that list is as follows:

Pelican
The Pelican is an exclusive Christian symbol that denotes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and is representative of atonement and redemption. The pelican is said to pierce its breast to feed its young ones with its blood and save them from starvation. As the embodiment of self-sacrifice, the bird came to be likened to Christ readily giving up his life and blood for the spiritual nourishment of other people and thus, became the ideal symbol for reparation and salvation. The magnanimous of the pelican has also made it a symbol of charity, generosity, nurturing, resourcefulness, responsibility, humility and camaraderie.

I had never heard of that one.

[other one]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

Why not?

Jewish worship included all sorts of symbols and images.  Look at the Ark, its tabernacle and the images all over it..   Look at the Ark itself.   Arks were in use by pagans long before God told Moses to build an Ark.  Arks were common in kingdoms.   

Yet God took the use of the ark which was pagan in origin, and told Moses to create one.  God took what was pagan and converted it to holy use.   This is the example we are given by God Himself in scripture.   

There is nothing wrong with taking what was once devoted to pagan use, and converting it and devoting it to holy use in worship of God.    If there was, then there would have never been an Ark of the Old Covenant.

 

 

there is a very big difference in God doing something and you or I doing the same kinds of things...

Just because he did something does not give us the authority to do the same.  I don't do Jewish stuff either btw.

[thereselittleflower]

11 minutes ago, other one said:

there is a very big difference in God doing something and you or I doing the same kinds of things...

Just because he did something does not give us the authority to do the same.  I don't do Jewish stuff either btw.

I disagree.

God gives us these as examples to follow.

This is about redemption.    We are called to redeem the time.  The entire earth groans as it awaits its redemption.  Are we to think that when Jesus triumphed openly over the powers and principalities that this means they can't be despoiled by the followers of Jesus? 

That would give them too much power.   No, Jesus conquered, triumphed over them, openly.  What was once theirs now belongs to the Kingdom of God, to the followers of Jesus.    It is up to us to choose what to appropriate that once was theirs, just as God did the Ark, and turn it into something Holy.   

This the earliest christians did with all the symbols I mentioned above.   

 

Like Qnt2 said above:

     

17 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

As far as pagan things:

Pagans worshipped things that God created. In a discussion years ago, I did an internet search of various things with the word Pagan in front of them.

For example, I looked up Pagan fish, and up came a picture of a fish which some pagan religion used and worshipped. I tried Pagan bird, and yes, it was there. After a long list of reptiles, animals, fish and birds, I tried things like a Pagan triangle, star, circle, cross and they were all there. I tried various celestial things like stars, moon etc, and they were there. There has been a huge number of pagan religions from almost every country, and the number of Pagan things was very large. Pagans, again have worshiped or used many different things which were created. So much so, that it is just about impossible to have anything God created which has not been used in a corrupt fashion to worship strange gods.

Does that make almost everything in Gods creation off limit for God to use, because some pagan religion has used them?  Pagan religions have also tried to claim every day of the week, and every month, for corrupt worship of a strange god. If we want to avoid anything ever used by a person or group for corrupt worship, no symbols could be used. God did not abandon His creation, or His symbols because of corrupt sinful men. 

 

Following what you and others have said, we would be forced to answer Q's question:

• "Does that make almost everything in Gods creation off limit for God to use, because some pagan religion has used them? "

 

in the affirmative and we might as well stop eating because pagans have eaten everything there is on earth and have dedicated it to their pagan gods.

 

 

 

 

[Qnts2]

19 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

I disagree.

God gives us these as examples to follow.

This is about redemption.    We are called to redeem the time.  The entire earth groans as it awaits its redemption.  Are we to think that when Jesus triumphed openly over the powers and principalities that this means they can't be despoiled by the followers of Jesus? 

That would give them too much power.   No, Jesus conquered, triumphed over them, openly.  What was once theirs now belongs to the Kingdom of God, to the followers of Jesus.    It is up to us to choose what to appropriate that once was theirs, just as God did the Ark, and turn it into something Holy.   

This the earliest christians did with all the symbols I mentioned above.   

 

Like Qnt2 said above:

     

 

Following what you and others have said, we would be forced to answer Q's question:

• "Does that make almost everything in Gods creation off limit for God to use, because some pagan religion has used them? "

 

in the affirmative and we might as well stop eating because pagans have eaten everything there is on earth and have dedicated it to their pagan gods.

 

 

 

 

While God did command the use of certain things which were consecrated (separated) for serving God, there were also restrictions on what could be used.

People seem to place importance on somethings in a bad way. God specifically forbade graven or molten images, as people begin to worship graven or molten images, or bow down to them. So, somethings were forbidden.  We are talking about human nature and avoiding the use which could lead to worship of a thing rather then God.

Just because Pagan have used just about everything to worship, it is God's creation, so nothing is inherently bad. Things are generally neutral and it is their use which can become pagan. God forbade the use of somethings.

[completedbeliever1]

The OC/OT is about the carnal man, and how we need to understand that it is bad.
The NC/NT is about the spiritual man, and how we need to understand that it is the way to live.
We had a teacher of the OT who was Moses, and our teacher of the NT is Yashua.  
The acts of the OT were pointing to our carnal selves, and that we needed to shed it.
The acts of the NT were pointing to our spiritual selves, and that we need to continue in it.
Moses represented the old man, and Yashua represented the new man.  
The law, (Moses) is able to get you TO the promised land.
The testimony, (Yashua) is able to get you INTO the promised land.  

[thereselittleflower]

28 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

While God did command the use of certain things which were consecrated (separated) for serving God, there were also restrictions on what could be used.

People seem to place importance on somethings in a bad way. God specifically forbade graven or molten images, as people begin to worship graven or molten images, or bow down to them. So, somethings were forbidden.  We are talking about human nature and avoiding the use which could lead to worship of a thing rather then God.

Just because Pagan have used just about everything to worship, it is God's creation, so nothing is inherently bad. Things are generally neutral and it is their use which can become pagan. God forbade the use of somethings.

While God forbade "graven images" which are something very specific, God didn't forbid all images.   The Ark has images.  The tabernacle had images.  The curtain in the holy of holies had images.  King Solomon's temple was FULL of images, carved, molton, and woven.  The Firey Serpent was a molton image God intructed Moses to make for the people of Israel to look at to be healed of the bites of the serpents.

What God forbade was making an image to become a god in and of itself.   

So again, we come back to intent of the heart.   A "graven image" was an image created with the INTENT that the image was to be made into a god-   not a representation of a god - but a god itself.   And the maker of the image would pray to the image because the image was a god, and sacrifice to the image because the image was a god, and bow down to the image because the image was god.

When Christians use images, just as the Israelites used images in their worship, there is NO INTENT that those images are being made into a god.  And so there is no prohibition against them, and nothing pagan about them, even if pagans used them first.

 

 

[Qnts2]

4 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

While God forbade "graven images" which are something very specific, God didn't forbid all images.   The Ark has images.  The tabernacle had images.  The curtain in the holy of holies had images.  King Solomon's temple was FULL of images, carved, molton, and woven.  The Firey Serpent was a molton image God intructed Moses to make for the people of Israel to look at to be healed of the bites of the serpents.

What God forbade was making an image to become a god in and of itself.   

So again, we come back to intent of the heart.   A "graven image" was an image created with the INTENT that the image was to be made into a god-   not a representation of a god - but a god itself.   And the maker of the image would pray to the image because the image was a god, and sacrifice to the image because the image was a god, and bow down to the image because the image was god.

When Christians use images, just as the Israelites used images in their worship, there is NO INTENT that those images are being made into a god.  And so there is no prohibition against them, and nothing pagan about them, even if pagans used them first.

 

 

I believe you are adding your opinion. God commanded specific graven images in the Ark and in the Temple, but forbade all others. So, unless the graven image is directly commanded by God, all other graven images have been forbidden.

The forbidding of graven or molten images is the making of them (other then what God specifically commanded). And the bowing down to them. And the worshipping of them. All three things are forbidden. So, you can not bow down to a graven image made by someone else. And you can not worship a graven image made by someone else. So, don't make one, don't kneel or bow down to one (kneeling is included in bowing in Hebrew as the wording is bending and bowing), and don't worship one.

[thereselittleflower]

2 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

I believe you are adding your opinion. God commanded specific graven images in the Ark and in the Temple, but forbade all others. So, unless the graven image is directly commanded by God, all other graven images have been forbidden.

The forbidding of graven or molten images is the making of them (other then what God specifically commanded). And the bowing down to them. And the worshipping of them. All three things are forbidden. So, you can not bow down to a graven image made by someone else. And you can not worship a graven image made by someone else. So, don't make one, don't kneel or bow down to one (kneeling is included in bowing in Hebrew as the wording is bending and bowing), and don't worship one.

The scriptures don't exist alone, with no historical context.

The word "graven image" means:

 

• graven image

  noun

  Simple Definition of graven image

  Popularity: Bottom 40% of words

  : an object (such as a statue) that is worshipped as a god or in place of a god

   

  Full Definition of graven image

  : an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone :  idol

   

As the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon states regarding its use here: 

•  the graven image of an idol, Ex. 20:4

 

This is what was prohibited, and the extent of what was prohibited, which is why there are cherubim on the Ark, and carved and molten images in the Temple of Solomon (which were not dictated by God, but decided upon by Solomon, and obviously God approved) - they don't violate this commandment.    

 

And as you said  - you can't worship a graven image. That is the context, and only context, of these words - the worship of other Gods.

 

[Qnts2]

3 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

The scriptures don't exist alone, with no historical context.

The word "graven image" means:

 

• graven image

  noun

  Simple Definition of graven image

  Popularity: Bottom 40% of words

  : an object (such as a statue) that is worshipped as a god or in place of a god

   

  Full Definition of graven image

  : an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone :  idol

   

As the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon states regarding its use here: 

•  the graven image of an idol, Ex. 20:4

 

This is what was prohibited, and the extent of what was prohibited, which is why there are cherubim on the Ark, and carved and molten images in the Temple of Solomon (which were not dictated by God, but decided upon by Solomon, and obviously God approved) - they don't violate this commandment.    

 

And as you said  - you can't worship a graven image. That is the context, and only context, of these words - the worship of other Gods.

 

Those are interpretations and not what it actually says.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

That is a complete sentence, with no qualifiers. You shall not make a graven image. 

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.

That one lists all of the prohibition. Make no idol, or graven image, of stand one up, or set it up in your land to bow/kneel, down to it. So as I said before, making a graven image is against the law, standing one up, or bowing down to it. 

  Deut 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.