Science and the Bible...

[junobet]

On 4.2.2016 at 2:03 PM, Bonky said:

Fine but we can't deny that there are people like Francis Collins running around that are Theists and yet embrace evolution every bit as much as Richard Dawkins.  

Well, as a matter of fact the vast majority of Christianity subscribes to "theistic evolution" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution). It's guys like Richard Dawkins who want us to forget that and who  try to depict creationists as the only 'true' Christians. 

[Kan]

On 2/8/2016 at 2:57 AM, Bonky said:

Kan, scientific inquiry runs on suspicion, doubt and criticism.  The one major appeal that scientific inquiry has over religion [my opinion] is that in science the goal is to discredit or falsify that which you believe to be true.  In religion, the goal is keep affirming.  So your definition of science makes complete sense considering that you are a theist.  I just don't want to confuse your use of that word with how we use it elsewhere in secular society.

Yes, we ought to like methods of deduction as provided in a secular scientific approach, but to love God as well, and to have a trust in His advances of love and wisdom through the means He has provided, such as nature and revelation.

It's about using both faith and reasoning. God has invited us to do so - "let us reason together" says the Lord.

Without faith - reasoning may end up calling the universe a place "full of dark and malevolent forces" to quote a famous astronomer. 

And without reasoning - we have people saying that there are various realms of "hell" below the crust of the earth.

 

 

[siegi91]

On 2/4/2016 at 6:13 PM, completedbeliever1 said:

I KNOW that evolution is a lie due to several things...

First, we (as believers) have the problem with sin.

"Evolution and the Bible most seriously conflict...(their respective views of death, which are central to each viewpoint). If evolution (or even just the concept of an old earth, with death and fossils predating man's sin) is correct, then death is natural, death is normal, death produced man.

Most importantly, in this view, death is not the penalty for sin, for it preceded man and his sin. But if death is not the penalty for sin, then the death of Jesus Christ did not pay that penalty, nor did His resurrection from the dead provide eternal life.While belief in creation and the young earth may not be essential for salvation (many Christians wrongly believe and do many things the Bible teaches against), if evolution is right, if the earth is old, if fossils date from before man's sin, then Christianity is wrong!

These ideas destroy the foundation for the Gospel and negate the work of Christ on the cross. Evolution and salvation are mutually exclusive concepts.Many times evolutionists understand this issue better than Christians. In his article, "The Meaning of Evolution," atheist G. Richard Bozarth claims that "Christianity has fought, still fights and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, for evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of God. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing" (American Atheist, September 20, 1979, p. 30).

Thus the issues of death and time reveal the utter incompatibility of evolution, in any form, with Christianity.But the story doesn't end there. The Bible reveals not only the origin of death, but how this issue will one day be resolved.There will come a time when this world, so marred by the effects of sin and death, including fossils and graveyards "shall melt with fervent heat, the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.... Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (II Peter 3:10,13)."

Evolution and the Wages of Sin
by John D. Morris, Ph.D.

For us, the problem is death before sin.  

Secondly, we see that Almighty set patterns, symbols, types, shadows, and cycles to show us how things work in the universe.

And last, it is not I who has a problem with evolution.  Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, so long as they keep their theory to themselves and do not teach my children.  

I have often wondered why the government has so much say over what my child is going to learn.  Mother and I are the parents, who raised and nurtured.  We are very well equipped to teach our children right from wrong, and 1 + 1 = 2.  

I also know quite a lot about science, and other subjects.  A child is confused when introduced to an opposing belief system. That is why truth of YAH and the origins of man need to begin at home.   

Science is not at odds with the bible.  People just need to understand the types, symbols, patterns, cycles, and shadows.
 

 

What I had in mind is whether you have scientific objections against evolution. While I know how evolution works, I personally have no clue about advanced biology, and that is why I would prefer my kids to get the knowledge from someone who actually has a clue about it. It is not because I am an atheist. Most Christian families here would think the same. 

After all, if evolution were so obviously wrong, I would trust my (future) kids' mental capabilities to realize that, and explain it to me. I cannot possibly take responsibility of thinking for them. My first impression, is that you fear that they would actually buy it; which is understandable, considering that evolution enjoys de-facto general scientific consensus today. From the point of view of the average European today, not knowing its basics, is akin to scientific illiteracy. My friend from Jordan also believes that the teaching of evolution is detrimental towards the belief in Allah, but I doubt the German government would do an exception because of him. Would you?

However, even if I were a Christian and I thought evolution were a foe of Christianity (I think it is, but most secularists and Christians don't), I would still take inspiration from Sun Tzu: 

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

 siegi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by siegi91

[ARGOSY]

On 2/18/2016 at 4:35 PM, siegi91 said:

 

What I had in mind is whether you have scientific objections against evolution. While I know how evolution works, I personally have no clue about advanced biology, and that is why I would prefer my kids to get the knowledge from someone who actually has a clue about it. It is not because I am an atheist. Most Christian families here would think the same. 

After all, if evolution were so obviously wrong, I would trust my (future) kids' mental capabilities to realize that, and explain it to me. I cannot possibly take responsibility of thinking for them. My first impression, is that you fear that they would actually buy it; which is understandable, considering that evolution enjoys de-facto general scientific consensus today. From the point of view of the average European today, not knowing its basics, is akin to scientific illiteracy. My friend from Jordan also believes that the teaching of evolution is detrimental towards the belief in Allah, but I doubt the German government would do an exception because of him. Would you?

However, even if I were a Christian and I thought evolution were a foe of Christianity (I think it is, but most secularists and Christians don't), I would still take inspiration from Sun Tzu: 

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

 siegi

 

 

My scientific objection to evolution is that the specific process whereby a simple organism like a prokaryote evolves into something more complex with more genetic functions, is not observed. Other evolutionary processes are observed (rapid outward transformations through selective pressure are observed).    Nearly every life-form today does have more genetic complexity than a prokaryote, yet there is no evidence that any of the complexity of these uniquely functional and active genes has evolved over time. That process remains unobserved in nature and the laboratory. This lack of evidence  makes a mockery of the claim of the theory of evolution as a valid explanation for the appearance of modern life forms.

[*Zion*]

Evolution is the belief that human beings are animals, and not human beings.  Take someone's humanity away, and get them to believe they are an animal - a conglomeration of chemicals and cells and no more, even; and they act just that way.  

Then we wonder why kids have no problem killing fellow students:  one of the columbine murderers had a t-shirt on with the words natural selection printed on it.  They did it on Hitler's birthday on purpose, because they so followed their icon/idol's philosophy of natural selection.  One of the kids who was killed was murdered because he was black, the other one was white and was killed because when they asked her if she believed in God she was brave enough to say yes.

Same thing happened in more recent days, i believe.  We're just animals, right?  It's just that some races among humans are higher evolved than others, right?

WRONG!  But that is exactly what evolution teaches.  Prey on people's prejudices, and you don't need to have evidence for them to believe what you say.

God have mercy on us, forgive us, help us!  People perish for lack of true knowledge.  Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

 

[siegi91]

23 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

 

My scientific objection to evolution is that the specific process whereby a simple organism like a prokaryote evolves into something more complex with more genetic functions, is not observed. Other evolutionary processes are observed (rapid outward transformations through selective pressure are observed).    Nearly every life-form today does have more genetic complexity than a prokaryote, yet there is no evidence that any of the complexity of these uniquely functional and active genes has evolved over time. That process remains unobserved in nature and the laboratory. This lack of evidence  makes a mockery of the claim of the theory of evolution as a valid explanation for the appearance of modern life forms.

Do you have a scientific explanation why we are so similar to apes? 

I think that it is self evident that we look much more like a orango than, say, a lion, or a fly.

Why is that, if evolution is not true?

 

 

 

 

[ARGOSY]

8 hours ago, siegi91 said:

Do you have a scientific explanation why we are so similar to apes? 

I think that it is self evident that we look much more like a orango than, say, a lion, or a fly.

Why is that, if evolution is not true?

 

I noticed in the other thread that you missed my main point. In this thread you have now changed the subject without dealing with my post. To believe in something without evidence is the very definition of faith. Evolutionists have no evidence for the claimed process of increased complexity since the so-called original prokaryote type organism. 

I'm not understanding your point, nature is filled with similar looking creatures. A dolphin has similar features to a killer whale, as does a dog have with the extinct tasmanian wolf.  Some shrubs look similar.  This fits in with the theory of evolution as well as fits in with creationism.   An intelligent designer like a car manufacturer creates a variety, some similar, and some unique.   

[Reinitin]

I do not have any issues with the creation account. Some doctrines twist the heck out of it and support all kinds of false theologies with it. But I have no issues believing exactly what is said.

[thereselittleflower]

On 2/24/2016 at 2:02 AM, *Zion* said:

Evolution is the belief that human beings are animals, and not human beings.  Take someone's humanity away, and get them to believe they are an animal - a conglomeration of chemicals and cells and no more, even; and they act just that way.  

Then we wonder why kids have no problem killing fellow students:  one of the columbine murderers had a t-shirt on with the words natural selection printed on it.  They did it on Hitler's birthday on purpose, because they so followed their icon/idol's philosophy of natural selection.  One of the kids who was killed was murdered because he was black, the other one was white and was killed because when they asked her if she believed in God she was brave enough to say yes.

Same thing happened in more recent days, i believe.  We're just animals, right?  It's just that some races among humans are higher evolved than others, right?

WRONG!  But that is exactly what evolution teaches.  Prey on people's prejudices, and you don't need to have evidence for them to believe what you say.

God have mercy on us, forgive us, help us!  People perish for lack of true knowledge.  Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

 

We are animals Zion.

The difference is, we are not simply animals.  We are something more.

 

[*Zion*]

Then why are we made in God's image?

Wow.  Do you actually have any faith at all in the Word of God at all?