Daniel 8

[Marilyn C]

19 minutes ago, Spock said: Thanks Marilyn, this makes much more sense to me to see Satan as the one opening the abyss to let some bad boys out to wreck havoc. And it makes sense to put the timing of this when he gets kicked out of the heavens.  Do you see the beast's power as being world wide or limited to a particular sphere?  It seems to me it can't be global because there are so many nations who are opposed to his rule and fight him. I don't see how his mark can be implemented in every country, but it makes sense to see it limited, like the Middle East.  Thanks, spock     Hi Spock, That`s great we agree on this. I think my answer to your first question will also tell you what I believe re - the Global Leader`s extent of rule.   Now to your first question -

`Greece split into 4 regions after Alex.  Which part do you see the antichrist arising from? `

I see that God`s word tell us it is the region just north of Israel.

`At the time of the end....The king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, & with many ships; & he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, & pass through. He shall also enter the glorious Land, & many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape his hand: Edom, Moab, & the prominent people of Ammon.` (Dan. 11: 40 & 41)

The king of the North – Syria & Iraq.  (Ancient Assyria)

Jordan – Ancient names, Edom, Moab, & Ammon.

 

Thus I believe the fighting in Syria & Iraq is a prelude to the Moslem leader arising there. So many warring factions there – Syrian army, anti Syrian groups, also Kurds, Iraq people & Islamic state. There will come on to the scene (in the next few years) a cunning person who will successfully transform this volatile Middle East into a `peaceful region.`

`And in the latter time of their (Greek) kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their fullness, a king... shall stand up

• of fierce countenance,

• & understands dark trickery & craftiness....

Through his policy  

• He shall cause trickery to prosper in his hand;

• he shall magnify himself in his heart & mind,

• & in their security he will corrupt & destroy many.... ` (Dan. 8: 23 & 25  AMP)

 

He will arise regionally first, then to national & international acclaim in the tribulation. So, .....after a period of `peace,` God brings Russia (& its federation etc) down to the mountains of Israel & judges them there.

 Then after the almost complete annihilation of the Russian Army the world will demand cessation of all conflict. Into this situation a seemingly benevolent leader will convince everyone that he has the solution for every international problem. As confirmation of his capabilities, he will cite the successful transformation of the previous volatile Middle East. Further he will negotiate & conclude a seven year peace treaty with the nation of Israel.

 

Marilyn.

 

[MorningGlory]

On 1/26/2016 at 11:49 PM, Sister said:

Hi Spock.  I'll be blunt.

The prophecy is future for them in the days of Babylon's rule ok.  What was to come happened all the way up to the kingdom of Greece.  It's history now.

Then after Greece he speaks about a little horn that comes up out one of these 4 kingdoms. 

We wont understand until we read further to receive the explanation. 

What will be revealed is all from the start of the prophecy - the ram, and the goat, who they are. These two kingdoms. After he will explain these, he will explain this little horn, that came up out of one of these kingdoms (of the 4 generals). 

 Daniel 8:19   And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

This he will explain how it ends, he will get to that, this is what he wants us to understand especially, after he explains leading up to it he will reveal who this little horn is.

 

THE EXPLANATION

Daniel 8:20   The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Daniel 8:21   And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king

Daniel 8:22   Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

God has just revealed that this little horn doesn't come up until the latter time of their kingdom.  When evil has reached it's peak, grown to the full, ...(when the world has become so wicked that it has to be harvested so that the tares can separate from the wheat) 

Clue no. 1 - This part where the horn comes up doesn't happen until the end.

Clue no. 2 - The little horn, is a king and understands Satans speech.

Clue no. 3 - This king is using someone else's power, not his own and shall destroy wonderfully, even the mighty and the holy people

Daniel 8:24   And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Clue no. 4 - He's going to highly exalt himself and will destroy by preaching peace.  He will even kill the mighty and holy people of God.

Daniel 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

They didn't know back then who the Prince of princes was.  But we know from the New testament now.  He will be broken without hand (by the Word of God, he will be destroyed)

Daniel 8:26   And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Shut up what vision? 

in the last end of the indignation:

for at the time appointed the end shall be.

It's appointed for the end.  The last part of the vision concerning the little horn.

 

It's my understanding that teaching is not allowed on this web site.  I think that is exactly what you're trying to do here.  Are you a theologian?

[Last Daze]

52 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You have presented no scriptural nor historical evidence to support these beliefs, nor like evidence to show that the Roman angel was ever cast into the Abyss.

Yes, I did.  You must have missed it.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, MorningGlory said:

It's my understanding that teaching is not allowed on this web site.  I think that is exactly what you're trying to do here.  Are you a theologian?

Oh come on MG,

she is not doing anything different from any of us.  She is taking the scripture and providing her commentary, exegesis, whatever you want to call it.  Just because you don't agree with it, why go off like this?  

Besides, its unbecoming  of a beautiful child of God to be "rude" to her fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  

isnt there an active pre trib thread out there that needs your input? 

Spock out

[MorningGlory]

3 minutes ago, Spock said:

Oh come on MG,

she is not doing anything different from any of us.  She is taking the scripture and providing her commentary, exegesis, whatever you want to call it.  Just because you don't agree with it, why go off like this?  

Besides, its unbecoming  of a beautiful child of God to be "rude" to her fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  

isnt there an active pre trib thread out there that needs your input? 

Spock out

Don't attempt to patronize me, Spock.  Unless you're ready to go the distance.  I'm tired of the teaching of iffy theology here on Worthy; the entire site seems to be choked with this stuff.  And, anyway, Sister is quite capable of speaking for herself; she always has.  If her theories hold up then they will stand on their own.  If not, they'll shrivel like grass in California..  Not my call. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Spock,

15 hours ago, Spock said:

So, you see the 2300 days as years, which has been used before, and you compute it from something from Alex's reign to 1967, which comes to 2300.  Why did you choose 333 BC?

BC334 was the Battle of Granicus and BC333 was the battle of Issus, where Alexander defeated the Persian Army. This corresponds with the major element of the vision of Daniel 8, the Goat with the prominent horn slaying the Ram.

The significance of this event is the transfer of sovereignty of the Holy Land and Jerusalem to a nation that was at various times antagonistic to the Jews and their worship. The Romans, who also were at times antagonistic to the worship at Jerusalem, replaced the Greeks. The Persians had on the other hand encouraged the Jews to return and to build the Temple. This situation of dominance by the antagonistic Gentiles continued until AD 1967 when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem.

15 hours ago, Spock said:

Are you saying you believe the antichrist will come from the king of the North, eastern part?  What nation or area is that specifically? 

I do not believe that Daniel 8 is speaking of the Antichrist, but of a military power that will invade the Middle East at the time of the end. My present view is that Russia will invade Turkey and consolidate, and some time later with the backing of other nations invade the Middle East, but they will be conquered by Christ at Armageddon. I believe that the Antichrist is connected with Daniel 7 and will oppose Christ after Armageddon.

15 hours ago, Spock said:

Do you agree the goat is Islamic in nature? 

No. The latter day manifestation of the goat power will be Apostate Christian, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic and Protestant, that is mainly European, and backed with some Islamic confederacies, such as Iran.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Kan]

1. Media Persia = the ram

2. Greece = the goat = great horn = first king - Alexander the Great. Four horns = four subdivided provinces given under the names of Alexanders four top generals.

3. Rome = is a little horn which grows out of one of these four provinces, becoming the AC and continues until the end of time.

The AC is controlled by Satan, hence the language of (war in heaven see Rev 12, and) taking down a third of the stars (angels) with him.

Pagan or imperial Rome became the Roman Catholic Church which trampled on the place of the heavenly Sanctuary and the ministry of Christ for the earth, by setting up its own sacraments and priesthood, which eclipsed the heavenly for a time, times and half a time, or 1260 years. From 538 AD to 1798 AD, when Rome lost its civil support and power to persecute the saints. She had the blood of over 70 million people in her. 

Daniel inquired how long would this atrocity last? The answer "Unto 2300 evenings and mornings, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" or ratified.

That time begins as explained in chapter 9, with the command to rebuild Jerusalem coming into effect, or "going forth" as the angel said (457 BC). Here the angel gives 5 more time spans to tie in the beginning of the 2300 time period.

 

 

[Spock]

William,

are you definitively saying Azazel (Apollyon from Rev 9) is the beast who many call the antichrist? 

[Spock]

Thanks Trevor,

just to be clear, do you not see the antichrist in this passage from Daniel 8?  And if not, who do you see this person? Thanks.

23“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

[Spock]

5 hours ago, Kan said:

1. Media Persia = the ram

2. Greece = the goat = great horn = first king - Alexander the Great. Four horns = four subdivided provinces given under the names of Alexanders four top generals.

3. Rome = is a little horn which grows out of one of these four provinces, becoming the AC and continues until the end of time.

The AC is controlled by Satan, hence the language of (war in heaven see Rev 12, and) taking down a third of the stars (angels) with him.

Pagan or imperial Rome became the Roman Catholic Church which trampled on the place of the heavenly Sanctuary and the ministry of Christ for the earth, by setting up its own sacraments and priesthood, which eclipsed the heavenly for a time, times and half a time, or 1260 years. From 538 AD to 1798 AD, when Rome lost its civil support and power to persecute the saints. She had the blood of over 70 million people in her. 

Daniel inquired how long would this atrocity last? The answer "Unto 2300 evenings and mornings, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" or ratified.

That time begins as explained in chapter 9, with the command to rebuild Jerusalem coming into effect, or "going forth" as the angel said (457 BC). Here the angel gives 5 more time spans to tie in the beginning of the 2300 time period.

 

 

Thanks Kan for laying this out and making it easy to understand.

my biggest problem with this is that 538 to 1798 computation. That seems to be a stretch to fit it in to someone's agenda. 1798 was not that significant.  Some pope gets arrested and removed for a short time seems pretty insignificant to me. Maybe it is not, but my gut tells me otherwise.