The Mark and the Image

[Ezra]

On 19/02/2016 at 9:09 PM, n2thelight said:

Where is the seperation,looks to say death to me...

With all due respect, I would call that a "deliberately ignorant" question, since the Scriptures are self-explanatory.

[n2thelight]

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

With all due respect, I would call that a "deliberately ignorant" question, since the Scriptures are self-explanatory.

With all ue respect to you as well,if scriptures were self explanatory,we would'nt be going through these debates..My question still remains,what scripture says death is seperation.So you can call it what you will..

Adam died a flesh death,where is it stated that he was seperated from God,because of sin we all are seperated from God.Death means death,not seperation

 

Keep in mind that I don't believe the flesh will rise

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Keep in mind that I don't believe the flesh will rise

Phil. 3:20 ...the Lord Jesus Christ 21 ...will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body...

The flesh will be "transformed" first, and then will rise; just as His flesh was transformed and arose. The garden tomb was empty, because he took his transformed body with him.

[Leonardo Von]

Dear brother Last Daze,

 

Grace and mercy and Peace from our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

On 2/2/2016 at 8:50 PM, Last Daze said:

If you disagree and you think people can not repent after receiving the mark and worshipping the image then please explain why based on scripture.

 

It is only seen in heaven who has conquered the beast:

 

• ·     “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [ and ] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” (Revelation 15.2).
• ·     “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [ I saw ] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [ his ] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Revelation 20.4).

 

On 2/2/2016 at 9:32 PM, Sister said:

I can't see forgiveness here during this time.  Maybe when Christ returns during the millennium, they can be taught and go through the whole process of learning again, but not before.

 

No possibility of salvation is seen for those who have surrendered to the beast (neither yesterday, nor today, nor ever):

• ·    “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [ his ] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14.9-11).

 

I know this seems radical, but when the door of grace closes the fate of all is sealed.

Thus it was in the time of Noah:

 

• ·    “In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; and they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [ is ] the breath of life. And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.” (Genesis 7.13,15,16).

 

Likewise, when the time came to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, even the intercession of Abraham did not resolve (Genesis 18: 23-33). Neither the intercession of Noah, Daniel, Job (Ezekiel 14.14,16,18,20), Moses and Samuel (Jeremiah 15: 1) could save when the time comes for reckoning.

After the Rapture of the Church (three and a half days after the middle of the seventieth week) the door of grace will be closed:

• ·    “And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, [ Not so ]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.” (Matthew 25.8-10).

 

When this happens, no one else can enter the heavenly sanctuary until the seven bowls of the Eternal have been shed (that is, until the end of the Battle of Armageddon when all those who have received the mark of the beast will have been killed):

 

• ·     “And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.” (Revelation 15.5-8).

 

In other words, after the door of grace is closed, there is no possibility of change:

 

• ·     “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” (Revelation 22.11).

 

The only thing that will happen is the progressive improvement or absolute degradation of those who are alive.

You may ask yourself, "but why is there no possibility of salvation for those who have received the mark of the beast"? Simple: because their hearts will already be so hardened by the fact that they have clung to the iniquity and pleasures of this world (see John 3: 19-21; 2 Thessalonians 2: 8-12) that their hearts have already become like diamond stones: unable to repent and convert:

 

• ·     “And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.” (Revelation 9.20,21).
• ·    “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.” (Revelation 16.10,11).
• ·    “And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [ every stone ] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.” (Revelation 16.21).
• ·    “But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Yea, they made their hearts [ as ] an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. Therefore it is come to pass, [ that ] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:” (Zechariah 7.11-13).

 

The question arises: "But why would the Eternal refuse to hear the cry of any people?" Because it is a corrupt clamor like that of the people of the time of Noah (who was praying to the Eternal for the end of the world - Genesis 6.13) or the time of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18: 20,21).

It is not that there is not going to be a slight spiritual awakening or outcry. Go, but see what it will be like:

• ·     “And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.” (Revelation 11.13).

 

Although they see the greatness and truthfulness of the Holy Scripture for a brief moment (in an opening and closing of an eye - 1 Corinthians 15:52), they can only find room in their hearts to mourn material loss:

 

• ·     “And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:” (Revelation 18.11).
• ·     “The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, and saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, and cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [ city is ] like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.” (Revelation 18.15-19).

 

The truth is that, after some root of bitterness springs up in someone's heart and takes care of him, it is no longer possible to find a place of genuine repentance. Worldliness (resulting from quarrels and strife - see James 4.1-3) has already possessed the whole being of the individual:

 

• “Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [ you ], and thereby many be defiled; lest there [ be ] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.” (Hebrews 12.15-17).

 

The proof of this is that the worshipers of the beast, even knowing that it was the Eternal that was in control of all the plagues, still did not repent:

 

• ·     “And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.” (Revelation 16.8,9).

 

On the contrary, they go so far as to find themselves strong enough to challenge God Almighty (Jesus) in person:

 

• ·     “Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I [ am ] strong. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.” (Joel 3.10-12).
• ·     “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.” (Revelation 19.19).

 

The truth is that when one has full conviction of who Jesus is and of what is His will (and they had, since the one hundred and forty-four thousand evangelists of Israel did an excellent job in announcing the message given by the three angels - Revelation 14: 1-3) and still prefer to continue living by his own righteousness and ability to have right to what he desires, there is no longer salvation for sins:

 

• ·    “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For [ it is ] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [ him ] to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6.1-6).

 

After all, only the goodness of the Eternal can lead to repentance (Romans 2: 4).

He who has accepted the mark of the beast is pleased with his manipulative and controlling system of the masses for the protection of individual rights (Revelation 13: 16-18). He does not believe in the power of godliness (1 Timothy 6: 3-5, 2 Timothy 3: 1-5), nor have love for the truth (2 Thessalonians 2: 8-12, 2 Timothy 4: 3-4) or people. He only wants to eat and drink, to marry and to give himself in marry, to buy and to sell, to plant and to edify (Luke 17: 26-30), seeking only passing and selfish joys (Amos 6: 1-6, 13), without ever strengthening the hand of the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:49).

In such individuals, who are capable to consider the death of two great witnesses of the Eternal motive for feasting and rejoicing (eating, drinking, marrying, etc.), there is no place for the love of the Eternal to operate within them by constraining them:

 

• ·     “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies [ shall lie ] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.” (Revelation 11.7-10).
• ·     “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:” (2Corinthians 5.14).

 

May Jesus have mercy on us and never allow our attachment to earthly things to keep Him from loving our neighbor through us, to the point of revolting with Him in the face of any problem, instead of repenting and turning from wicked ways to being healed of sin (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Edited December 4, 2016 by Leonardo Von

[Sister]

7 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

No possibility of salvation is seen for those who have surrendered to the beast (neither yesterday, nor today, nor ever):

• ·    “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [ his ] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14.9-11).

 

I know this seems radical, but when the door of grace closes the fate of all is sealed.

Thus it was in the time of Noah:

 

 

Leonardo Von

Yes, after much pondering about this in the last few months, I tend to agree with you and what the scriptures are saying.

Taking the mark of the beast is the deal breaker with Christ.  The final abomination causing damnation of the soul where there is no turning back.

 

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Sister said:

Leonardo Von

Yes, after much pondering about this in the last few months, I tend to agree with you and what the scriptures are saying.

Taking the mark of the beast is the deal breaker with Christ.  The final abomination causing damnation of the soul where there is no turning back.

 

The one and only "deal breaker":

• “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."  Matthew 12:31

These words of Jesus are either true or false.  If you try to equate taking a mark and worshiping something besides God as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, be careful not to paint yourself into a corner in the process.

[Serving]

On 05/12/2016 at 0:51 AM, Leonardo Von said:

Dear brother Last Daze,

Grace and mercy and Peace from our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is only seen in heaven who has conquered the beast:

 

• ·     “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [ and ] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” (Revelation 15.2).
• ·     “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [ I saw ] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [ his ] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Revelation 20.4).

Hello Leonardo,

Don't forget that these you mention : It is only seen in heaven who has conquered the beast: are those in the FIRST resurrection .. there is still the 2nd judgement to come AFTER the millennium which is WHY none of the 2nd resurrection group were seen in heaven in that vision you quoted above, because their (those of the 2nd resurrection) judgement had not yet come at that point .. hence their absence from that passages narrative.

My Point : There is still a final judgement to come AFTER the millennium for all those who ever lived but were not part of the 1st judgement/resurrection .. we can not forget about them and must keep that in mind.

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No possibility of salvation is seen for those who have surrendered to the beast (neither yesterday, nor today, nor ever):

• ·    “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [ his ] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14.9-11).

We can not be sure of this claim friend .. don't forget that this is speaking about them whilst they are in the flesh .. their bodies WILL be given over to torment and a percentage of them to destruction, but AFTER the wrath of God has run it's course, those who survive and repent can likely be given another chance .. I say this because of this scripture :

Zechariah 14:18    And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Now that deals with those outsiders who are the survivors that were not gathered by Christ at His coming, meaning, that group must be those who had the mark of the beast and went through the wrath of God and survived up to the 2nd coming and are now there during the millennium being told to come up and pay their respects to Christ in Jerusalem.

The point being this : NOTHING unclean may enter into the millennial kingdom, yet those above are ordered to come into the kingdom to keep the feast .. those survivors who obviously had the mark of the beast .. therefore, there must be those amongst them who took the mark who were forgiven and "sprinkled" clean else they could in no wise enter into that kingdom to keep that very feast they are commanded to attend !!!!!!

Now please consider and take note :

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [ his ] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;

The wrath of God is poured out on those in the FLESH who took the mark .. that is, whilst they were ALIVE with the mark of the beast suffering the wrath of God which wrath happens before the 2nd coming .. this is not a sign of eternal soul destruction but torment and punishments in the flesh DURING the 7 trumpet blasts directed against MANKIND .. not against SOULS in judgement but against FLESH on the earth with the mark.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Same as this, whilst suffering the wrath of God in their flesh, they suffer in the presence (sight) of the heavenly host from WHERE the wrath of God is being poured out. 

 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

The SMOKE of their torment .. meaning .. there is NO escaping God's wrath whilst in their flesh IF they have taken that mark of the beast, if they take that mark, then they MUST suffer the consequences of punishments decreed UNTIL the wrath runs it's course.

Quote

I know this seems radical,

Not at all brother, nothing you have suggested or explained is new to some of us, that we haven't already asked ourselves and struggled with, it's just that it is not so black and white when considering all other scriptures linked to this subject is all. 

Quote

but when the door of grace closes the fate of all is sealed.

Thus it was in the time of Noah:

 

• ·    “In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; and they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein [ is ] the breath of life. And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.” (Genesis 7.13,15,16).

 

Likewise, when the time came to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, even the intercession of Abraham did not resolve (Genesis 18: 23-33). Neither the intercession of Noah, Daniel, Job (Ezekiel 14.14,16,18,20), Moses and Samuel (Jeremiah 15: 1) could save when the time comes for reckoning.

After the Rapture of the Church (three and a half days after the middle of the seventieth week) the door of grace will be closed:

• ·    “And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, [ Not so ]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.” (Matthew 25.8-10).

Again, don't forget that WHILST in their FLESH that door of grace was closed and they suffered punishments and a percentage of them suffer death for their actions .. but please temper your over all assertion with this :

Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Now UNLESS one gets forgiven, then NOTHING could be tolerable right .. you either get forgiven (tolerable) or not (intolerable) .. so you see brother, there is much to consider .. therefore your examples are dealing with judgements being passed upon the FLESH but not upon their SOULS .. THAT SOUL judgement is reserved for the 2nd judgement mentioned above .. there is a difference.

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When this happens, no one else can enter the heavenly sanctuary until the seven bowls of the Eternal have been shed (that is, until the end of the Battle of Armageddon when all those who have received the mark of the beast will have been killed):

 

• ·     “And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.” (Revelation 15.5-8).

 

In other words, after the door of grace is closed, there is no possibility of change:

 

• ·     “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” (Revelation 22.11).

This is correct in that once they have taken the mark of the beast, because the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven is shut until the 7 angels have run their course, then NO MAN can find mercy UNTIL the temple is re-opened which happens as Jesus and His angels descend from heaven to destroy the beast and the false prophet and their armies as per Rev 19.

As for the rest of your explanation, all I can say is to keep in mind the judgements being poured out are being poured out on those in their FLESH .. whilst they are still alive .. this does not mean that their souls are condemned for all eternity, for there is still a 2nd judgement of their SOULS .. 

And in this vein I ask you to contemplate this :

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

God bless.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Serving

[Last Daze]

Something to keep in mind is that receiving the mark is never mentioned by itself.  It is always mentioned together with worshiping the image.  There's a reason for that.

[RustyAngeL]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The one and only "deal breaker":

• “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."  Matthew 12:31

These words of Jesus are either true or false.  If you try to equate taking a mark and worshiping something besides God as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, be careful not to paint yourself into a corner in the process.

Agreed, to take the mark is to turn your back forever on Christ.  No turning back at all.  Your fate is sealed.

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

Agreed, to take the mark is to turn your back forever on Christ.  No turning back at all.  Your fate is sealed.

That's not exactly the conclusion I've come to.